398
edits
User:CPO675/Sandbox 1: Difference between revisions
no edit summary
No edit summary |
No edit summary |
||
| Line 144: | Line 144: | ||
Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, critics argue that the verse in question is scientifically wrong. | Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, critics argue that the verse in question is scientifically wrong. | ||
The antiquity view is well summarised in Tommaso Tesei's article 'Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context' (https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19) which examines the Qur'ans verse, especially regarding words that have puzzled Islamic commentators. The full article can be read in the link which provides much deeper arguments than the summary: | |||
'''[Do I need full story for context of what it's referring to here? Or just a summary of the story]Tomei Tomsei Cosmological notions (Tommaso Tesei Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19<nowiki/>)''' The story is taken from the Syriac Alexander Legend, which separate part of this chapter 18 Surah al-Kahf come from (''see [[Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance]]'') | |||
{{Quote|TT|starting with the word saraban which has puzzled commentators + fish regaining life: All we know is that the fish breaks loose near a rock at the junction of the two seas and that this event indicates to Moses that he has reached the goal of his journey. When examined in light of a legend concerning Alexander’s journey to the Land of the Blessed, during which he fails to bathe in the water of life, the episode acquires more sense, however. Specifically, the fish’s escape represents an allusion to the resurrection of a salt fish after Alexander’s cook washes it in the water of life. Muslim exegetes introduced some elements of this legend in their explanation of the narrative told in the Quran. In fact, the fish’s escape episode is usually related to the motif of the water of life. Western scholars, too, almost unanimously consider this story of Alexander to be behind the Quranic account. The motif of the source of life reported in the legend concerning Alexander should certainly be understood in relation to the life-giving characteristics that Near Easterners attributed to the sweet waters of the rivers... | |||
When at v. 63 the Quran states that the fish “took its way in the sea in a marvellous way,” it evidently refers to its wondrously being revived upon contact with the miraculous water. In fact, the enigmatic episode acquires sense only if read in light of the dynamic described in the legend of the water of life, and the extreme vagueness with which the Quran describes the episode suggests that its audience was expected to be acquainted with the Alexander tale... | |||
..This version of the story of Alexander reflects a simple idea that follows the literal understanding of Gen 2:10–14, namely, that the earthly paradise could be reached by following the course of one of the four rivers. In fact, sources confirm that during late antiquity it was widely held that paradise was a physical place situated on the other side of the ocean encircling the earth. In accordance with this concept, it was generally assumed that the rivers lowing from paradise passed under this ocean to reach the inhabited part of the world. .. | |||
..identification of the water of life with the rivers of paradise, as confirmed by Philostorgius and, more significantly, in the Talmudic version of the Alexander legend, and, on the other hand, the idea that these rivers lowed underground beneath the sea from paradise to the inhabited earth, as several authors report—it seems very likely that saraban in Q 18:63 is meant to describe the subterranean passage under the sea that the fish takes once resurrected by the miraculous water of the paradisiacal rivers... | |||
The example of the life that rain brings to the arid soil (e.g., Q 43:11: “and Who sent down out of heaven water in measure; and We revived thereby a land that was dead; even so you shall be brought forth”) is often adduced as proof of God’s ability to resurrect from death. (life creating qualities of cosmic ocean).. | |||
In Quranic cosmology, this expression is possibly intended to designate a place that has a specific role in the passage of the heavenly waters to earth. In light of the above, one can imagine majmaʿ al-baḥrayn as the place where the heavenly and terrestrial oceans meet, and from where the sweet waters reach the earth, by way of an underground course alluded to by the expression saraban..}} | |||
=== The two seas in Islamic literature === | === The two seas in Islamic literature === | ||
After {{Quran|18|60}} says he won't give up until he reaches the two seas, or has progressed for many ages, implying this junction is extremely far from any land, taking longer than any journey on our actual oceans would take. For example Christopher Columbus's journeys to America in the 1,400's took around 4 weeks to 6 months depending on the wind and weather.<ref>[https://www.royalcaribbean.com/guides/transatlantic-history-crossing-cruise#:~:text=Back%20in%20Columbus'%20day%2C%20sailing,was%20largely%20based%20on%20luck. ''How transatlantic history shaped the world as we know it.''] Royalcaribbean.com. Uploaded by Chantae Reden. 2022. Written by Claire Heginbotham.</ref> Which should have been far longer than any close ocean as later Islamic scholars have suggested | |||
{{Quote|{{Quran|18|60}}|(Consider) when Moses said to his young companion, "I shall continue travelling until I reach the junction of the two seas or have travelled for many years".}} | {{Quote|{{Quran|18|60}}|(Consider) when Moses said to his young companion, "I shall continue travelling until I reach the junction of the two seas or have travelled for many years".}} | ||
'''(is | In this story Moses goes with a 'servant of God' at the junction of the two seas, who is unnamed in the Qur'an but called 'Al-Khidr' in the Hadith. This man has extremely accurate foreknowledge of both future events and human nature ([[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Predestination|predestination]]), so he carries out seemingly strange immoral and tasks and asks Moses not to ask him about them - however Moses does, so after three events Al-Khidr parts ways with him and tells him why he committed the acts. He made a hole in the boat so it couldn't. His knowledge is so great and usually only reserved for God, yet he is able to teach such an importatn prophet as Moses and get annoyed with him - this fits coming from a special sea. | ||
'''Only he will stop''' - remove long unnecessary section if it doesn't add anything {{Quran|18|60-82}}{{Quote|{{Quran|18|60-81}}|18:65 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge. | |||
18:66 Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?” | 18:66 Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?” | ||
18:67 He said, “Indeed, with me you will never be able to have patience. | 18:67 He said, “Indeed, with me you will never be able to have patience. | ||
| Line 169: | Line 186: | ||
18:80 And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief. | 18:80 And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief. | ||
18:81 So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.}} | 18:81 So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.}} | ||
| Line 177: | Line 192: | ||
This verse is expanded upon here: {{Bukhari|4|55|613}} | This verse is expanded upon here: {{Bukhari|4|55|613}} | ||
* Someone who has this foresight inclusion - future events and human nature ([[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Predestination|predestination]]) (ship sinking, boy becoming an unbeliever, orphans finding treasure) makes sense coming from god's sea - and disappears there after Moses keeps asking questions - this makes sense with them coming from a supernatural cosmic ocean | * Someone who has this foresight inclusion - future events and human nature ([[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Predestination|predestination]]) (ship sinking, boy becoming an unbeliever, orphans finding treasure) makes sense coming from god's sea - and disappears there after Moses keeps asking questions - this makes sense with them coming from a supernatural cosmic ocean | ||
=== Islamic Views === | === Islamic Views === | ||
| Line 224: | Line 223: | ||
Al-Tabari end of the Earth https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=1&tSoraNo=55&tAyahNo=19&tDisplay=yes&Page=2&Size=1&LanguageId=1 | Al-Tabari end of the Earth https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=1&tSoraNo=55&tAyahNo=19&tDisplay=yes&Page=2&Size=1&LanguageId=1 | ||
This idea of a cosmic ocean also has strong connections to the [[The Islamic Whale|Islamic whale]] swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back, a view held by most major traditional Islamic scholars on their Qur'an commentaries such as Al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Ar-Razi, Al Qurtubi etc. | |||
'''Map of world with encircling ocean (al-Baḥr al-Muḥīṭ''' https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/encyclopaedia-of-islam-2/al-bahr-al-muhit-SIM_1064) '''P57 KMMS map Karen C. Pinto. In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision https://scholarworks.boisestate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=history_facpubs#:~:text=Teasing%20apart%20the%20depictions%2C%20this,Sea)%2Cand%20Bu%E1%B8%A5ayratKhw%C4%81rizm(Aral''' | |||
=== The Biblical and Judeo-Christian background literature === | === The Biblical and Judeo-Christian background literature === | ||
| Line 231: | Line 234: | ||
The bible itself also contains a sea above the Earth | The bible itself also contains a sea above the Earth | ||
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://biblia.com/books/kjv1900/Ge1.6 | title=Genesis 1: | {{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://biblia.com/books/kjv1900/Ge1.6 | title=Genesis 1:10}}|(Genesis 1:6-10) 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. | ||
9 And God said, | 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. }} | ||
=== Other religions an cosmic waters === | === Other religions an cosmic waters === | ||
This may be compared to the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14</ref> Wensinck explains,<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17</ref> "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative). | This may be compared to the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14</ref> Wensinck explains,<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17</ref> "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative). | ||
Critics also wonder why if it really meant a natural phenomena such as the meeting of two seas, why would they describe one that also matched a highly mistaken antiquity view of teh world - for exmaple there is nothing about the creation of forests or deserts. The lines are not needed nor do they add anything to the text. | |||
== External links == | == External links == | ||