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Cousin Marriage in Islamic Law

2016-06-17T09:34:27Z

MyMagics:

This article discusses cousin [[marriage]] in [[Islam]], and the [[health]]-risks involved in such practices.

==Scripture==

Due to [[#History|the actions]] of Prophet Muhammad and the Rightly-Guided Caliphs, marriage between cousins is explicitly allowed and even [[Uswa Hasana|encouraged]] in Islam. The Qur'an itself does not discourage or forbid this practice in any way. In fact it implicitly allows it, as seen in [[Surah|chapter]] 4 verse 23:
{{Quote|{{Quran|4|23}}|Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful;-}}

So everyone besides these relatives named can be married. Such marriages in Muslim majority countries are often preferred and even encouraged in some regions. This is in contrast with [[China]], [[India]], most of the [[United States]] and some other nations where cousin-marriage is against the law and regarded as incest.

Even though there is some debate on this issue, scientists tend to agree it is genetically unhealthy. There are other problems with cousin marriages. According to the Hanafi [[Madh'hab|school of legists]], a man may give his daughter in marriage to his brother's son without her consent. This goes against free will which results in unhappy marriages.

==History==

===Muhammad===

Prophet [[Muhammad]] himself married cousins, as he did with [[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Muhammads Wives and Concubines#Zainab_bint_Jash|Zaynab bint Jahsh]], who was not only the daughter of Umaimah bint Abd al-Muttalib, one of his father's sisters,<ref>Bewley/Saad 8:72; {{Tabari|8|p. 4}}; {{Tabari|39|p. 180}}; cf Guillaume/Ishaq 3; Maududi (1967), Tafhimul Quran, Chapter Al Ahzab</ref> but was also divorced from a marriage with Muhammad's adopted son, Zayd ibn Haritha. It was this last issue that caused the most controversy, with traditional Arab norms at the time being opposed, though not the Qur'an (Sura Al-Ahzab 33:37).<ref>{{Quran|33|37}}</ref>

According to Ibn Sa'd, after Zaynab's marriage to his adopted son Zayd, Muhammad went to visit him, but instead found a hastily clad Zaynab. Though he did not enter the house, the sight of her pleased him. [[Tabari]] states that Zaynab was only wearing a single slip, and the wind pushed away a curtain when Muhammad entered, revealing her "uncovered." Thereafter Zayd no longer found her attractive and thought of proposing divorce, but Muhammad told him to keep her. Eventually, however, Zayd did divorce her.

===Ali===

Muhammad also allowed the marriage of his daughter, Fatimah, to his cousin, Ali ibn Abi Talib, who would later go on to become the fourth Rightly-guided [[Caliph]] of Islam.

===Umar===

The second Caliph, Umar ibn al-Khattab, also married his cousin, Atikah bint Zayd ibn Amr ibn Nufayl.<ref>History of the Prophets and Kings 4/ 199 by Muhammad ibn Jarir al-Tabari</ref><ref>al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah 6/352 by ibn Kathir</ref>

==Science and Statistics==

From a biological point of view it becomes clear that first cousin marriage is not recommended because close relatives have a higher than normal consanguinity which means an increased chance of sharing genes for recessive traits. With this high amount of shared DNA, you have a higher risk of birth defects in a baby. Even if cousin marriages are not performed, you can still have such genetic defects in populations where there is a restricted social structure.

In [[Pakistan]], where there has been cousin marriage for generations, and according to professor Anne-Marie Nybo Andersen from South Danish University, the current rate is 70%,<ref>[http://fpn.dk/liv/krop_valvare/article1616165.ece Flere dødfødsler blandt indvandrere (Danish language)] - fpn.dk,February 27, 2009</ref> one study estimated infant mortality at 12.7 percent for married double first cousins, 7.9 percent for first cousins, 9.2 percent for first cousins once removed/double second cousins, 6.9 percent for second cousins, and 5.1 percent among non-consanguineous progeny. Among double first cousin progeny, 41.2 percent of pre-reproductive deaths were associated with the expression of detrimental recessive genes, with equivalent values of 26.0, 14.9, and 8.1 percent for first cousins, first cousins once removed/double second cousins, and second cousins respectively.

A BBC report discussed Pakistanis in the [[United Kingdom]], 55% of whom marry a first cousin. Given the high rate of such marriages, many children come from repeat generations of first-cousin marriages. The report states that these children are 13 times more likely than the general population to produce children with genetic disorders, and one in ten children of first-cousin marriages in Birmingham either dies in infancy or develops a serious disability.<ref>Justin Rowlatt - [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/4442010.stm The risks of cousin marriage] – BBC News, November 15, 2005</ref>

The BBC also states that Pakistani-Britons, who account for some 3% of all births in the UK, produce "just under a third" of all British children with genetic illnesses. Published studies show that mean perinatal mortality in the Pakistani community of 15.7 per thousand significantly exceeds that in the indigenous population and all other ethnic groups in Britain. Congenital anomalies account for 41 percent of all British Pakistani infant deaths.<ref>Alan H. Bittles - [http://www.jstor.org/pss/2137601 The Role and Significance of Consanguinity as a Demographic Variable] - JSTOR</ref><ref>[http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2007-06/15/content_895516.htm Polygamist community faces genetic disorder] – China Daily, June 15, 2007</ref><ref>John Dougherty - [http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2005-12-29/news/forbidden-fruit/1 Forbidden Fruit] – Phoenix New Times, December 29, 2005</ref><ref>A. H. Bittles and M. L. Black - [http://www.pnas.org/content/107/suppl.1/1779.full Consanguinity, human evolution, and complex diseases] – PNAS, June 25, 2009</ref>

Worldwide, it has been estimated that almost half of all Muslims are inbred:

{{Quote||A rough estimate shows that close to half of all Muslims in the world are inbred: In Pakistan, 70 percent of all marriages are between first cousins (so-called "consanguinity") and in Turkey the amount is between 25-30 percent.<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://fpn.dk/liv/krop_valvare/article1616165.ece|2=2012-03-15}} More stillbirths among immigrants] - Jyllands-Posten, February 27, 2009</ref> 

Statistical research on Arabic countries shows that up to 34 percent of all marriages in Algiers are consanguine (blood related), 46 percent in Bahrain, 33 percent in Egypt, 80 percent in Nubia (southern area in Egypt), 60 percent in Iraq, 64 percent in Jordan, 64 percent in Kuwait, 42 percent in Lebanon, 48 percent in Libya, 47 percent in Mauritania, 54 percent in Qatar, 67 percent in Saudi Arabia, 63 percent in Sudan, 40 percent in Syria, 39 percent in Tunisia, 54 percent in the United Arabic Emirates and 45 percent in Yemen.<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.reproductive-health-journal.com/content/6/1/17/table/T1|2=2012-03-15}} Consanguinity and reproductive health among Arabs] - Tadmouri et al. ''Reproductive Health'' 2009 6:17 doi:10.1186/1742-4755-6-17</ref><ref>Nicolai Sennels - [http://europenews.dk/en/node/34368 Muslim Inbreeding: Impacts on intelligence, sanity, health and society] - EuropeNews, August 9, 2010</ref>}}

The British geneticist, Professor Steve Jones, giving The John Maddox Lecture at the 2011 Hay Festival had stated in relation to Muslim inbreeding, "It is common in the Islamic world to marry your brother’s daughter, which is actually [genetically] closer than marrying your cousin."<ref>Jonathan Wynne-Jones - [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/hay-festival/8544359/Hay-Festival-2011-Professor-risks-political-storm-over-Muslim-inbreeding.html|2=2011-05-31}} Hay Festival 2011: Professor risks political storm over Muslim 'inbreeding’] - The Telegraph, May 29, 2011</ref>

{{Core Science}}

==See Also==

{{Hub4|Health|Health}}
{{Hub4|Marriage|Marriage}}

==External Links==

*{{external link| url = http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3921:incest-in-islam&catid=294:social-practices-interactions&Itemid=61| title = Incest in Islam| publisher = Islam Monitor| author = | date = | archiveurl = http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fislammonitor.org%2Findex.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26view%3Darticle%26id%3D3921%3Aincest-in-islam%26catid%3D294%3Asocial-practices-interactions%26Itemid%3D61&date=2013-12-03| deadurl = no}}

==References==
{{Reflist|30em}}

[[Category:Islam and Women]]
[[Category:Islam and Science]]

Islamic Attire and Health

2015-12-17T00:44:14Z

MyMagics: /* External Links */

<metadesc>Ill health effects of Islamic Dress in relation to Vitamin D levels.</metadesc>
[[File:Burqa9.jpg|thumb|right|200px|The Burqa, an example of "full hijab", can contribute significantly to certain health problems (''[[Images:Hijab|more images]]'').]]
This article discusses the potential [[health]] effects for [[Islam and Women|women]] who observe [[Hijab]].
==Hijab==

The majority of female Muslims worldwide, following the [[Islam|Islamic]] requirement of observing Hijab, wear some form of Islamic dress. This ranges anywhere from wearing a simple head covering, to the burqa (a form of "full hijab"), which covers almost all exposed skin.

Full hijab can consist of the following elements:

*Jilbāb; this refers to any long and loose-fitting coat or garment worn by women.
*Khimar; a scarf or wrap, often referred to simply as 'hijab', used to cover the head and neck.
*Niqāb; a piece of cloth which veils the face.

Some Muslim jurists regard the wearing of a niqab as [[fard|wajib]] (mandatory), while others believe it is mustahab (favored by [[Allah]]).<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://islamic-world.net/sister/hijab_in_quran.htm|2=2011-07-03}} Hijab In The Al-Quran And Sunnah] - Khalifah Institute, accessed July 3, 2011</ref>

==Health Effects==

There is concern among the medical community about some of the health effects of the extreme styles of Islamic dress, with the main issues arising from Vitamin D deficiency due to lack skin exposed to UV light. It has been established by credible scientific evidence that almost all women who observe the full hijab are chronically deficient in Vitamin D.<ref>Mishal, A.A., Effects of Different Dress Styles on Vitamin D Levels in Healthy Young Jordanian Women. Osteoporosis International, 2001. 12(11): p. 931-935.</ref> Vitamin D is a vital nutrient and deficiency of this kind can lead to various diseases.

===Vitamin D Deficiency===

Vitamin D is fat soluble vitamin which is an essential nutrient for human health.<ref>Moan, J. and A. Juzeniene, Solar radiation and human health. Journal of Photochemistry and Photobiology B:Biology, 2010: p. 109-110.</ref><ref>Bandgar, T.R., Vitamin d and hip fractures: Indian scenario. The Journal of the Association of Physicians of India, 2010. 58(9): p. 535-537.</ref> Vitamin D is synthesised when ultraviolet rays from sunlight strike the human skin triggering a series of reactions, it is by this method that a vast majority of a person's daily intake of Vitamin D is produced. It is naturally absent in significant quantities in almost all food items commonly consumed, with a very few select foods containing appreciable amounts and very few consumer products being fortified with it.<ref>Office of Dietary Supplements - National Institutes of Health. [http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitamind/ Dietary Supplement Fact Sheet: Vitamin D.] 2011. Retrieved July 2, 2011.</ref>

The main role of Vitamin D in the body is to regulate the correct amounts of calcium present in the blood. This vitamin aids in the absorption of calcium to create healthy, strong bones. Insufficient amounts of Vitamin D leads to weak, brittle and misshapen bones; a condition known as osteomalacia in adults and rickets in children. Sufficient amounts of Vitamin D are also crucial in preventing fractures and osteoporosis in older adults.<ref>[http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/vitamin-d/NS_patient-vitamind Vitamin D] - Mayo Clinic. 2011. Retrieved July 2, 2011.</ref>

Low levels of Vitamin D have also been linked to a whole host of devastating disorders including cardiovascular diseases, type 1 diabetes, multiple sclerosis and rheumatoid arthritis. There is also a strong association between deficiency in Vitamin D and an increased risk of developing several deadly cancers, including breast cancer.<ref>Holick, M.F., Sunlight and vitamin D for bone health and prevention of autoimmune diseases, cancers, and cardiovascular disease. The American journal of clinical nutrition, 2004. 80(6 Suppl).</ref>

The concern is not only towards the woman who chooses to observe the more covering forms of Islamic dress but also towards any potential children she may carry. Infants born to vitamin D deficient mothers have been found to suffer from an increased prevalence of seizures.<ref>Bandgar, T.R., Vitamin d and hip fractures: Indian scenario. The Journal of the Association of Physicians of India, 2010. 58(9): p. 535-537.</ref> If these children observe the full hijab in childhood, they run the risk of not reaching the height they would have otherwise reached if they were not vitamin D deficient.<ref>Holick, M.F., Sunlight and vitamin D for bone health and prevention of autoimmune diseases, cancers, and cardiovascular disease. The American journal of clinical nutrition, 2004. 80(6 Suppl)</ref>

====Islamic Dress and Health====

Since almost all the daily intake of Vitamin D is from sunlight, exposure there is significant concern for women who wear the burqa or "full hijab". This style of dress, leaving only a very small portion of skin around the eyes exposed, greatly reduces the surface area of the body which sunlight is exposed to and hence reduces the amount of Vitamin D synthesized. Such low rates of Vitamin D production will quickly exhaust the bodies excess emergency stores of Vitamin D contained in the fat and the person will likely go into a deficient state.

Due to this reason, serious vitamin D deficiency is wide-spread in many Muslim majority countries. A study performed by doctors at King Fahd University Hospital in [[Saudi Arabia]], showed that out of all 52 women tested, ''all'' had seriously deficient levels of Vitamin D and were at risk of many serious health problems, despite living in one of the sunniest places on the planet.<ref>Elsammak, M.Y., et al., Vitamin D deficiency in Saudi Arabs. Hormone and Metabolic Research, 2010. 42(5): p. 364-368.</ref> Furthermore, in a study undertaken in [[Jordan]], 83.3% of women wearing the most covering style of Islamic dresses were found to be deficient in summer time. This is rather striking when compared to the fact only 18.2% of Jordanian men studied were found to be deficient.<ref>Mishal, A.A., Effects of Different Dress Styles on Vitamin D Levels in Healthy Young Jordanian Women. Osteoporosis International, 2001. 12(11): p. 931-935.</ref> Jordan, like Saudi Arabia, holds the distinction of being one of the sunniest places on the planet, so the effect of wearing the burqa on Vitamin D levels and health is profound.

====Effect of Ethnicity and Migration====

There is also concern for the health of immigrants from Islamic majority countries, most of which are around the equator and receive the highest amount of sunlight of any place on earth. There concern arises when these women migrate to countries with lower amounts of sunlight throughout the year compared to their previous home country. Skin tone is darkest at the equator in response to the sunlight.<ref>Barsh, G.S., What Controls Variation in Human Skin Color? PLoS Biol, 2003. 1(1): p. e27.</ref><ref>Relethford, J.H., Hemispheric difference in human skin color. American journal of physical anthropology, 1997. 104(4): p. 449-457.</ref> Darker skin blocks out significantly more UV radiation and hence decreases Vitamin D production by an enormous amount (people with dark skin pigmentation may need 20 - 30 times as much exposure to sunlight).<ref>Mike Adams - [http://www.naturalnews.com/003069.html Vitamin D myths, facts and statistics] - NaturalNews, January 1, 2005</ref> All these factors combined with the heavily covering Islamic dress create serious potential health concerns for Islamic migrants in countries away from the equator such as [[Canada]], the [[United States]], [[Europe]] and [[Australia]].<ref>Hagenau, T., et al., Global vitamin D levels in relation to age, gender, skin pigmentation and latitude: an ecologic meta-regression analysis. Osteoporosis International, 2009. 20(1): p. 133-140.</ref><ref>Hanley, D.A. and K.S. Davison, Vitamin D Insufficiency in North America. The Journal of Nutrition, 2005. 135(2): p. 332-337</ref>

This is further evidenced by numerous scientific studies. A study was undertaken in ''Dearborn, Michigan'', the most-concentrated Arab-American settlement in the United States to assess the relationship between Vitamin D levels and Islamic dress choice in migrant Arab-American Muslim women. The average vitamin D level was found to be 4 ng/ml in veiled women who undertook ''no'' vitamin D supplementation and 7 ng/ml in women who wore the same style veil but chose to take supplements.<ref>Hobbs, R., et al., Severe Vitamin D Deficiency in Arab-American Women Living in Dearborn, Michigan. Endocrine Practice, 2009. 15(1): p. 35-40.</ref> The threshold for rickets and osteomalacia risk is 8 ng/ml and below; clinical deficiency is considered as anything below 16 ng/ml.<ref>Heaney, PR. Functional indices of vitamin D status and ramiﬁcations of vitamin D deficiency. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 2004; 80 : S1706 – S1709</ref> This illustrates a very serious health risk for migrant Muslim women who immigrate to such countries and wear the burqa.

In the [[United Kingdom]], cases of rickets have been rare until recently. Cases of the disease have increased dramatically due to the growing Muslim population.<ref>
{{Cite web|url= http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/rise-in-rickets-linked-to-ethnic-groups-that-shun-the-sun-2319920.html|title= Rise in rickets linked to ethnic groups that shun the sun|publisher= The Independent|author=Jeremy Laurance |date= July 25, 2011|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Flife-style%2Fhealth-and-families%2Fhealth-news%2Frise-in-rickets-linked-to-ethnic-groups-that-shun-the-sun-2319920.html&date=2013-09-22|deadurl=no}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|url= http://digitaljournal.com/article/316191|title= Rickets on the increase amongst British children|publisher= DigitalJournal|author= Katerina Nikolas|date= December 16, 2011|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fdigitaljournal.com%2Farticle%2F316191&date=2013-09-22|deadurl=no}}</ref><ref>{{Cite web|url= http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/1154211.stm|title= Rickets upsurge among UK Asians|publisher= BBC News|author= |date= February 5, 2001|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.bbc.co.uk%2F1%2Fhi%2Fhealth%2F1154211.stm&date=2013-09-22|deadurl=no}}</ref>

===Obesity===

It has been noted that the observance of hijab, the garments and the traditions surrounding them, can discourage exercise both psychologically and practically.<ref name="TDCJul12010">Caroline May - [{{Reference archive|1=http://dailycaller.com/2010/07/01/the-burka-may-be-making-muslim-women-fatter-by-discouraging-exercise/|2=2012-03-05}} The burka may be making Muslim women fatter by discouraging exercise] - The Daily Caller, July 1, 2010</ref><ref name="ANSMar132012">[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/generalnews/2012/03/13/visualizza_new.html_131156617.html|2=2012-03-15}} Qatar: surge in diabetes/obesity, unhealthy Arab habits] - ANSAmed, March 13, 2012</ref> The style of dress can make it easy to hide the bloat of a large meal, and it can be physically restrictive for those who wish to exercise, especially outdoors where one has to be aware of the weather (if it is too hot or humid). In the West, where most indoor gyms are mixed-sex, exercise without Islamic dress can be very difficult for observant Muslim women, and some forms of Islamic dress can make playing almost any sport nearly impossible.<ref name="TDCJul12010"></ref><ref name="ANSMar132012"></ref>

According to The Economist magazine’s world rankings, the countries with the highest obesity rates among women are Muslim countries<ref name="TDCJul12010"></ref> (data from 1999-2003 show 8 of the top 10 to be Muslim majorities; [[Qatar]], Saudi Arabia, [[Palestinian Authority area|Palestinian territories]], [[Lebanon]], Albania, [[Bahrain]], [[Egypt]], and the [[United Arab Emirates]]),<ref>[[:File:Economist rankings obesity women.JPG|Economist.com rankings for obesity among women]]</ref> and a 2006 study presented by Qatari expert Issam Abd Rabbu at the "Facts About Obesity" seminar, found that up to 70 percent of women living in the Gulf Arab states (Bahrain, [[Kuwait]], [[Oman]], Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates) were overweight or obese.<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=14663|2=2012-03-05}} Up to 70% of Gulf women are obese] - Middle East Online, September 29, 2005</ref> Dr. Abdul Rahman Musaiqir, head of the Arab Center for Nutrition at Bahrain University, has said the problem of obesity among women in the Gulf states is being disguised by their Islamic dress, and that obesity rates are much higher than in developed countries.<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.emirates247.com/news/region/gulf-women-hide-weight-under-gowns-2011-01-12-1.341366|2=2012-03-05}} Gulf women hide weight under gowns] - Emirates 24/7, January 12, 2011</ref>

A 2011 study issued by the National Commercial Bank (NCB), Saudi Arabia’s largest bank, found that the number of Saudis suffering from high blood pressure, diabetes and obesity is increasing at an alarming rate, and a survey released by the Saudi Diabetes and Endocrine Association (SDEA) in 2010 showed that over 70 percent of the Saudi population are "alarmingly obese".<ref>Nadim Kawach - [{{Reference archive|1=http://www.emirates247.com/news/region/blood-pressure-and-obesity-epidemic-in-saudi-2011-05-02-1.387705|2=2012-03-05}} Blood pressure and obesity epidemic in Saudi] - Emirates 24/7, May 2, 2011</ref> Figures released by the Qatar Diabetes Association (QDA) state that 20% of the population has been diagnosed as diabetic in Qatar, and the disorder is affecting more and more children.<ref name="ANSMar132012"></ref> Some of the health problems associated with obesity include; heart disease, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, painful wear and inflammation on weight-bearing joints, breathing problems and sleep apnea.<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://nation-health.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/health-problems-associated-with-obesity.html|2=2012-03-22}} Health Problems Associated with Obesity] - The Nation's Health, March 2011</ref>

==Implications for the Islamic Faith==

The observance of hijab prevents women from getting enough vitamin D. This can lead to a whole host of disorders. For Islam as a religion, the implications are troublesome.

Islam is considered by its adherents to be the perfect way of life for mankind. If Islam was mandated by Allah, and if he wanted women to observe hijab, then logically he would not have created humans with the need to get Vitamin D from exposing their skin to the sun.

It could be argued that today this can be combated with vitamin D supplementation combined with daily exposure to the sun in the privacy of ones backyard or some other location safe from the eyes of non-mahram men. However, this is not a satisfactory solution.

Many are not fortunate enough to have their own private gardens where they can sit, and sitting in front of a window inside their homes will not help because window glass only lets through UV-A rays, not UV-B and UV-C. You need UV-B rays for the production of vitamin D.<ref>Shereen Jegtvig - [{{Reference archive|1=http://nutrition.about.com/od/askyournutritionist/f/sunlight.htm|2=2011-11-01}} How Much Sun Exposure Do I Need for Vitamin D?] - About.com, October 06, 2011</ref>

Furthermore, it was only in 1923 that it was established when 7-dehydrocholesterol is irradiated with light, a form of a fat-soluble vitamin is produced,<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.beyonddiscovery.org/content/view.txt.asp?a=414|2=2011-08-06}} Unraveling The Enigma Of Vitamin D] - United States National Academy of Sciences, accessed August 6, 2011</ref> and until the mid-1930s, when the first commercial yeast-extract and semi-synthetic vitamin C supplement tablets were sold, vitamins were obtained solely through food intake and (in the case of vitamin D) through exposure to the sun.<ref>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vitamin&oldid=442774268 Vitamin] - Wikipedia, accessed August 6, 2011</ref>

So what of the Muslim women prior to the 1930s and their vitamin intake? If this were a satisfactory explanation to avoid Islam contradicting modern scientific knowledge, then it would have been mentioned in the [[Qur'an]] or [[hadith]] [[literature]], but it is not.

It could also be argued that long-term excessive exposure to UV radiation from sunlight can cause skin cancer and other ailments. However, according to epidemiologist Robyn Lucas at Australian National University,<ref>[{{Reference archive|1=http://web.archive.org/web/20090410154214/http://nceph.anu.edu.au/Staff_Students/staff_pages/lucas.php|2=2011-08-20}} National Centre for Epidemiology and Population Health] - Australian National University, October 17, 2008</ref> analysis of lifespan versus disease shows that far more lives are lost to diseases caused by lack of sunlight than by those caused by too much,<ref>Deborah Kotz - [{{Reference archive|1=http://health.usnews.com/health-news/family-health/heart/articles/2008/06/23/time-in-the-sun-how-much-is-needed-for-vitamin-d|2=2011-08-20}} Time in the Sun: How Much Is Needed for Vitamin D?] - U.S.News, June 23, 2008</ref> and of course, a women is always capable of avoiding what she feels to be too much or too little sunlight, but with the restrictive Islamic dress laws in force, this ability is taken away from her.
{{Core Science}}

==See Also==

{{Hub4|Hijab|Hijab}}
{{Hub4|Health|Health}}

{{Translation-links-english|[[Последици за здравето от ислямското облекло|Bulgarian]], [[Efectos sobre la Salud de la Vestimenta Islámica|Spanish]]}}

==External Links==
*[https://books.google.com/books?id=0dRAAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA43&lpg= Women's Human Rights: The International and Comparative Law Casebook], University of Pennsylvania Press, 01-Jan-2011
*[http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/272307 Women could endanger their health by wearing burqas] - ''Digital Journal''
*[http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-6088759/Addressing-vitamin-D-deficiency-among.html Addressing vitamin D deficiency among veiled pregnant women in Australia] - ''Excerpt from 'Nutrition & Dietetics: The Journal of the Dietitians Association of Australia ''
*[http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/06/25/us-middle-deficiency-idUSHAR56610220070625 Middle Eastern women may have vitamin D deficiency] - ''Reuters''
*[http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=6113 The consequences of Islamic dress]'' - [[Faith Freedom International|FFI Forum]]''
*[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.rferl.org/content/synthetic-hijabs/24694264.html|2=2012-09-05}} Synthetic Hijabs Get Under Tajik Women's Skin] ''- Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty''
*[http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/hyderabad/Burqa-clad-women-prone-to-Vitamin-D-deficiency-Doctors/articleshow/20468505.cms Burqa-clad women prone to vitamin D deficiency: Doctors] - ''The Times of India''

==References==
{{Reflist|30em}}

[[Category:Islam and Women]]
[[Category:Islam and Science]]
[[bg:Последици за здравето от ислямското облекло]]

User talk:MyMagics

2015-11-08T08:16:59Z

MyMagics: /* New fake conversions */ new section

==[[Mamta_Kulkarni_-_Conversion_to_Islam]] and [[Hans_Raj_Hans_-_Conversion_to_Islam]]==
If the story can be confirmed it would be great but I think this needs further investigation. According to Wikipedia, she did convert to Islam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamta_Kulkarni

Usually they dont accept sources that are not true (in this case they provided two sources). I dont see anything about this on their [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mamta_Kulkarni talk page.] This will need more sources to really confirm if this was true or false. Do you have any additional sources? Our other [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Category:Fake_Conversions similar pages] provide lots of proof and that is confirmed with the fact that there is no mention of their conversion to Islam on their Wikipedia pages. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 09:29, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
:Another relevant link [http://bollywoodjournalist.com/tag/mamta-kulkarni-blog/] so I think the status of this conversion is disputed, not confirmed. It can only be considered as confirmed if reliable sources have reported it (atleast one, and multiple if possible). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 09:48, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::Hey [[User:Axius|Axius]], That whole nonsense was added by some apologist[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&diff=596368250&oldid=596312316], not even a month ago. You can ask wikipedians on teahouse[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse/chatclickthrough], if you want quick help. Someone removed that whole thing. [[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 10:29, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::That page has been vandalized many times, see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&diff=590831468&oldid=590829726], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&diff=584399218&oldid=583984772], .. But removed everytime as well [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&diff=590246133&oldid=590244796], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&diff=590831468&oldid=590829726]. See.

:::I think there are several issues with this page and it should be deleted.
:::1. She is not really notable (I had no idea who she was until today) and there are hundreds of similar claims.
:::2. There isn't really much of an article. We can't separate individual sentences into sections, so really all we have is an 8-sentence stub.
:::3. Both sources cannot be used. The first one is a Hindu site and is not a reliable souce. The second one clearly says "We chanced upon her blog. Can’t be sure if it is really her", and links to a dead blog that no longer exists (#3 is the biggest problem). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 11:59, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::::Yea, #3, there are no reliable source. They're all blog/misc sites as far as I can see.
::::MyMagics, the right thing would be to remove that information from Wikipedia and create a section on the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mamta_Kulkarni talk page] there asking people to use reliable sources (her personal website if any, or notable news organizations etc) for that information. Looks like it has been [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&action=history removed] now. Check it occasionally to make sure the false rumors are not inserted again.
::::If you want to take care of this, you can try to contact her through social media or other places (this was linked on another site: [http://www.facebook.com/mamtam.kulkarni])) and tell her about the rumors and advise her to arrange an interview with a notable organization/news agency which should publish the interview online. This can then be used on Wikipedia and other places.
::::Let me know if you need a copy of the article. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 15:04, 18 March 2014 (PDT)

:::::You both are correct. There is need of a very specific interview, since it is a Biography of living person. See [[Hans Raj Hans (Conversion to Islam)]], if it is fine. [[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 19:09, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::::::I havent looked at this new Hans article yet and will do so soon.
::::::Sahab (could you check your mail first), there are about 95,000 results for this actress for her name and Islam [https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&q=%22mamta+kulkarni%22+islam] so there are lots of rumours about this going on. According to Wikipedia, she's a former actress. We can have a stub saying that the rumors are unconfirmed and she has not confirmed this to a notable news organization. The stub will be helpful since people depend on us for deciding whether these rumors are true or not. When they see they are unconfirmed it might help stop the spread of the rumor. We can have a stub on that or maybe put these misc people on a page or keep it deleted - its up to you. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 19:41, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::::::: Yes, this paper[http://www.hindustantimes.com/entertainment/tabloid/sex-symbol-mamta-kulkarni-turns-into-a-spiritual-queen/article1-1095670.aspx] is good source, she has denied that she got got married. The actual theme of conversion. So it makes rest of the story(about conversion) baseless already.

:That's it! Here we are.. Have a look at her own facebook's post:-

"Because of my silence even this part has become very talk of the town.First i read and asked by many, about me marrying someone in USA.Some say i got 2 kids etc,etc. '''But i never married to no one neither i am still married to anyone.Second about me being married to Vicki Goswami/ and him converting into Muslim so do i become too. First i am still Hindu neither Vicki Goswami has converted to Muslim.''' it would be shame on me after attaining my self and have written in detail in my book and also on my blog and after realizing ‘“GOD IS ONE"’ to change or convert into any religion or in my capacity to make someone change his/her religion would be like an dirty joke as this is not human-beings work leave that on God." [https://www.facebook.com/mamtam.kulkarni/posts/343961755735483]
[[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 20:04, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::Where is the proof that this Facebook page actually belongs to her? It could be anyone. That Hindustan Times link is acceptable though. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 00:16, 19 March 2014 (PDT)
:::Revising my previous opinion, I think the Hans Raj Hans page can be saved, but it will need to be completely rewritten and expanded to be suitable for the site. I'm willing to fix it, but MyMagics, you will have to fix the citations for [[Hans Raj Hans (Conversion to Islam)]] before I do this. You can read how to cite sources using [[WikiIslam:Citing Sources]]. This will have to be done because we expect editors to ensure their contributions do not require unnecessary cleanup by others.

:::Concerning the [[Mamta Kulkarni (Conversion to Islam)]] page, Axius' idea about a stub separate from our "Conversion to Islam" pages is a good idea if we cannot confirm this as false. We could just point out that there are no reliable sources that claim it and she has not acknowledged it. But I think we should move onto that in more detail after we have first fixed the Hans Raj Hans page (the issues concerning the Mamta Kulkarni page are more complex). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 08:03, 19 March 2014 (PDT)
::::MyMagics, I have moved both pages to the site sandbox URLs ([[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Mamta Kulkarni (Conversion to Islam)]] & [[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Hans Raj Hans (Conversion to Islam)]]). You can fix the citations there and once it's rewritten I'll move it back and we can add it to our list of new articles. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 08:08, 19 March 2014 (PDT)
:::::For M Kulkarni, hopefully more evidence can be found. The facebook posts are pretty powerful (if it can be confirmed by another source its hers, although I'm sure it is). Some of them (Sep 2013) have her talking about Indian gods/goddess/spiritual leaders and them being an inspiration etc. I'll try to search for some more evidence later.
:::::MyMagics, it would be great if additional evidence can be found which will make the page stronger. I know that if she knew about this page she would appreciate it as its trying to stop those rumors that she has tried to clarify herself. -[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 20:09, 19 March 2014 (PDT)
::::::Hi MyMagics. Are you going to fix those citations soon? Please let us know. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 10:42, 23 March 2014 (PDT)
{{outdent|7}}Filled all references of [[Hans Raj Hans (Conversion to Islam)]].
[http://bollywoodjournalist.com/2014/01/23/why-we-might-lose-mamta-kulkarni-all-over-again/] confirm that facebook of mamta kulkarni. [[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 07:07, 24 March 2014 (PDT)
:Oh, great! Thanks for that. Thought we lost you there. Okay, I will neaten up the Hans Raj Hans page soon and add it to the new articles list [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:New_Articles_List here]. Then we'll take a look at the other. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 07:47, 24 March 2014 (PDT)
::Could you add the author and publication names to those citations? These fields are in the [[WikiIslam:Citing_Sources#Minimal_Parameters|Minimal Parameters]]. Could you also change the formatting of the dates? So ''20 February 2014'' should be written as ''February 20, 2014'' (this is all explained in the [[WikiIslam:Citing Sources]] page I directed you to a few days ago). Thanks! [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 08:52, 24 March 2014 (PDT)
:::I'm a little disappointed. Editors should not have to prod other editors several times to complete a single task of clean-up. And when editors get around to fixing it they shouldn't really rush it and leave it half done. Please do read that [[WikiIslam:Citing Sources]] (which you clearly have not up to this point). I've archived all the pages this time and fixed the errors, so it's okay for now. And thanks for all the research you put into both pages. I will work on this page over the next few days. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 10:40, 26 March 2014 (PDT)
::::I've found a secondary source for Navraj refuting the reports of his father converting to Islam ({{cite web|url= http://zeenews.india.com/entertainment/music/singer-hans-raj-hans-embraces-islam_151012.html|title= Singer Hans Raj Hans embraces Islam?|publisher= Zee News|author= |date= February 20, 2014|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://zeenews.india.com/entertainment/music/singer-hans-raj-hans-embraces-islam_151012.html&date=2014-03-26|deadurl=no}}) Also wanted to confirm, is Yuvraj Hans' original Facebook post in Punjabi? [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 11:06, 26 March 2014 (PDT)
:::::I [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=WikiIslam%3ASandbox%2FMamta_Kulkarni_%28Conversion_to_Islam%29&diff=106319&oldid=106091 added] some stuff for Mamta's page. There are some remaining cite links that have to be fixed. I wish she gave a reliable news organization an interview and denied the conversion and all its claims in clear words.
:::::MyMagic probably hasnt signed in yet or thought its too difficult to fix the citations or just decided to skip doing that for now.
:::::In any case, MyMagic, do you think you could fix the remaining links on Mamta's page? [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Sandbox/Mamta_Kulkarni_%28Conversion_to_Islam%29]. Sahab has fixed the links for Hans' page [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Sandbox/Hans_Raj_Hans_%28Conversion_to_Islam%29]. For Mamta's page, they are links #1,2,4,5,6. I fixed links 3,7,8,9,10. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 19:04, 26 March 2014 (PDT)
::::::I fixed the URLs for Mamta Kulkarni. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 18:39, 27 March 2014 (PDT)
{{outdent}}Both articles have been indexed by Google now (I searched for the page titles [e.g. mamta kulkarni wikiislam] and they were there) and should start getting regular traffic in a few months (the Sunita Williams page took that same amount of time). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 12:17, 5 April 2014 (PDT)
:Views already starting to come in for both Mamta Kulkarni and Hans Raj, great work! --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:06, 6 April 2014 (PDT)

==Outstanding Issues==
===[[Mamta Kulkarni - Conversion to Islam|Mamta Kulkarni (Conversion to Islam)]]===
I guess this article is all that it can be right now. Should it be finalized or should we look for more links? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 19:22, 31 March 2014 (PDT)
:Since we have a ref proving that Facebook page is hers, I think it's definitely enough to start finalizing. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 20:58, 31 March 2014 (PDT)
::Just a note for MyMagics; please do not misrepresent sources again. We take things like that very seriously here. You wrote "the story was that Kulkarni married converted to Islam along with her boyfriend Vicky Goswami, so that her boyfriend could be released from jail", but that is not what the sources you cite say at all. They actually imply she converted to marry him, not to set him free (because he had already done that by himself). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 05:52, 2 April 2014 (PDT)
:::I did a search myself and found a news article claiming what you wrote[http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/hindi/bollywood/news-interviews/Mamta-Kulkarni-weds-jailed-lover-sets-him-free/articleshow/19983020.cms]. However, that report brings up more problems. It states that:
:::''"A life sentence in Dubai is in effect 25 years, but prisoners can apply for early release on various grounds. Apart from good conduct, these include learning to recite passages from the Qu'ran or converting to Islam."''
:::You claim:
:::''"There is no provision in UAE's law that if somebody convert to Islam, their sentence will be lowered."''
:::Do you have a reliable source we can use to confirm that? This is quite a major issue because the article will obviously be different depending on which of those statements is true. Thanks. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 07:13, 2 April 2014 (PDT)
::::According to Wikipedia's article "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates Freedom of religion in the United Arab Emirates]":
::::''"A list of Muslim converts is published annually. Prisoners who convert to Islam often receive a reduction in their sentences. In Dubai, prisoners (other than those facing life sentences) who memorize all or part of the Qur'an can receive a reduction in their sentences or a pardon, depending on the length of sentence and the number of sections memorized. The ruler of the Emirate of Ajman offers a cash award for prisoners who memorize all or part of the Qur'an."''
::::Wikipedia may not be the best source, but in the absence of any other, it will have to do. It also sounds about right.
::::These aren't the only 2 problems with your contributions. You also state:
::::''"After 1-2 months, Kulkarni was interviewed, it was her first interview in last few years. Kulkarni told that she never converted to Islam, neither she got married"''
::::I don't see anywhere in the sources you provided or in the BollywoodJournalist interview a denial concerning a conversion to Islam.
::::What you are doing here with sources and how you present them is akin to Islam propaganda. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 11:08, 2 April 2014 (PDT)

===[[Hans Raj Hans - Conversion to Islam|Hans Raj Hans (Conversion to Islam)]]===
Hi MyMagics. The [[Hans Raj Hans - Conversion to Islam|Hans Raj Hans (Conversion to Islam)]] is now finished. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. However, note the differences between your [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Hans_Raj_Hans_-_Conversion_to_Islam&oldid=106071 original submission] and then what [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Hans_Raj_Hans_-_Conversion_to_Islam we have now]. They are completely different articles. Not a single word from your original submission remains and every aspect of it has been tidied up and expanded on (and I'm not referring to copy-editing, but details, explanations and analysis). I say this so that you know what you should be aiming for when creating articles. You have obviously viewed our other pages on fake conversions such as [[Sunita Williams (Conversion to Islam)]] so really should have been aiming for this standard from the beginning.

Anyhow, could you please answer the following questions for us?

# What are the news stories about in the image posted under Yuvraj Hans' Facebook post? Are they claiming Hans converted or not?
# Are Navraj and Yuvraj, Hans Raj Hans' only children?
# You wrote that Hans Raj Hans rejected the claims of a conversion on February 21, but there are news reports available (including one you yourself used as a reference) that are dated February 20. Am I missing something here or was that an error on your part? Thanks. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 03:29, 30 March 2014 (PDT)
::Obviously he rejected the conversion news. If he will keep talking about it, it may cause further suspecion. In fact, his sons(he got 2, not more) was enough. [[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 07:51, 12 April 2014 (PDT)
::: Regarding #1, do you know the headlines for the newspapers shown in the [https://www.facebook.com/iamYuvrajHans/posts/475028412602140:0 Facebook post?] Are these newspaper headlines denials of the conversion, or are they propagating the false rumor?
:::Could you also respond to the #2 and #3 points that Sahab made? Regarding #3, Sahab is asking about the date of the incident. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 08:31, 12 April 2014 (PDT)

==Thanks for the 2 articles==

You guys have done a great job with both articles. Thanks a lot! Sahab and Axius, God bless you! [[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 07:51, 12 April 2014 (PDT)
:And thanks to you as well for taking the initiative to start the articles (even though it was not much more than a start). Sahab did most of the work. We have started getting traffic on both pages. The traffic will increase as more and more people link to it. According to traffic data, the false conversion story of [[Sunita_Williams_%28Conversion_to_Islam%29|Sunita Williams]] is the one of the 5 most popular pages on the site.
:If you hear of any other popular false conversion stories that are going around on the internet let us know. At the least we can put it on the to-do list to create those articles. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 08:27, 12 April 2014 (PDT)

== Leonel Messi ==

Muslims have rumored that he converted into Islam.

What you think about it? [[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 20:02, 25 October 2014 (PDT)
:Not sure at the moment how famous he is and I haven't looked into it. His name and Islam does bring up a lot of results but I dont know how many of those are related to the false conversion. [https://www.google.com/search?q=Leonel+Messi&oq=Leonel+Messi&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.248j0j8&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8#safe=off&q=%22Lionel+Messi%22+islam] but many are related to it. Do you know of any links or references? Mamta Kulkarni's page by the way is now a top 10 traffic page. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 05:07, 26 October 2014 (PDT)

== New fake conversions ==

Lindsay Lohan :-

: http://blog.sfgate.com/dailydish/2015/05/15/lindsay-lohans-rep-plays-down-islam-conversion-rumors/
: http://www.dailystar.co.uk/showbiz/442268/Lindsay-Lohan-convert-Islam

Liam Neeson

: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/liam-neeson-not-converting-islam-article-1.2076302

John Brennan

: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/02/11/rumor-check-ex-fbi-agent-claims-obamas-cia-nominee-is-really-a-secret-muslim-recruited-by-saudis/
: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/category/topics/john-brennan
: http://www.dcclothesline.com/2015/08/27/cia-director-john-brennan-is-a-muslim-convert/

Pretty sure that a lot can be written now. [[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 00:16, 8 November 2015 (PST)

User talk:MyMagics

2014-10-26T03:02:35Z

MyMagics: /* Leonel Messi */ new section

User talk:MyMagics

2014-04-12T14:51:19Z

MyMagics: /* Thanks for the 2 articles */

==[[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Mamta Kulkarni (Conversion to Islam)|Mamta Kulkarni (Conversion to Islam)]] and [[Hans_Raj_Hans_-_Conversion_to_Islam]]==
If the story can be confirmed it would be great but I think this needs further investigation. According to Wikipedia, she did convert to Islam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamta_Kulkarni

Usually they dont accept sources that are not true (in this case they provided two sources). I dont see anything about this on their [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mamta_Kulkarni talk page.] This will need more sources to really confirm if this was true or false. Do you have any additional sources? Our other [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Category:Fake_Conversions similar pages] provide lots of proof and that is confirmed with the fact that there is no mention of their conversion to Islam on their Wikipedia pages. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 09:29, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
:Another relevant link [http://bollywoodjournalist.com/tag/mamta-kulkarni-blog/] so I think the status of this conversion is disputed, not confirmed. It can only be considered as confirmed if reliable sources have reported it (atleast one, and multiple if possible). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 09:48, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::Hey [[User:Axius|Axius]], That whole nonsense was added by some apologist[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&diff=596368250&oldid=596312316], not even a month ago. You can ask wikipedians on teahouse[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse/chatclickthrough], if you want quick help. Someone removed that whole thing. [[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 10:29, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::That page has been vandalized many times, see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&diff=590831468&oldid=590829726], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&diff=584399218&oldid=583984772], .. But removed everytime as well [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&diff=590246133&oldid=590244796], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&diff=590831468&oldid=590829726]. See.

:::I think there are several issues with this page and it should be deleted.
:::1. She is not really notable (I had no idea who she was until today) and there are hundreds of similar claims.
:::2. There isn't really much of an article. We can't separate individual sentences into sections, so really all we have is an 8-sentence stub.
:::3. Both sources cannot be used. The first one is a Hindu site and is not a reliable souce. The second one clearly says "We chanced upon her blog. Can’t be sure if it is really her", and links to a dead blog that no longer exists (#3 is the biggest problem). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 11:59, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::::Yea, #3, there are no reliable source. They're all blog/misc sites as far as I can see.
::::MyMagics, the right thing would be to remove that information from Wikipedia and create a section on the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mamta_Kulkarni talk page] there asking people to use reliable sources (her personal website if any, or notable news organizations etc) for that information. Looks like it has been [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&action=history removed] now. Check it occasionally to make sure the false rumors are not inserted again.
::::If you want to take care of this, you can try to contact her through social media or other places (this was linked on another site: [http://www.facebook.com/mamtam.kulkarni])) and tell her about the rumors and advise her to arrange an interview with a notable organization/news agency which should publish the interview online. This can then be used on Wikipedia and other places.
::::Let me know if you need a copy of the article. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 15:04, 18 March 2014 (PDT)

:::::You both are correct. There is need of a very specific interview, since it is a Biography of living person. See [[Hans Raj Hans (Conversion to Islam)]], if it is fine. [[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 19:09, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::::::I havent looked at this new Hans article yet and will do so soon.
::::::Sahab (could you check your mail first), there are about 95,000 results for this actress for her name and Islam [https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&q=%22mamta+kulkarni%22+islam] so there are lots of rumours about this going on. According to Wikipedia, she's a former actress. We can have a stub saying that the rumors are unconfirmed and she has not confirmed this to a notable news organization. The stub will be helpful since people depend on us for deciding whether these rumors are true or not. When they see they are unconfirmed it might help stop the spread of the rumor. We can have a stub on that or maybe put these misc people on a page or keep it deleted - its up to you. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 19:41, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::::::: Yes, this paper[http://www.hindustantimes.com/entertainment/tabloid/sex-symbol-mamta-kulkarni-turns-into-a-spiritual-queen/article1-1095670.aspx] is good source, she has denied that she got got married. The actual theme of conversion. So it makes rest of the story(about conversion) baseless already.

:That's it! Here we are.. Have a look at her own facebook's post:-

"Because of my silence even this part has become very talk of the town.First i read and asked by many, about me marrying someone in USA.Some say i got 2 kids etc,etc. '''But i never married to no one neither i am still married to anyone.Second about me being married to Vicki Goswami/ and him converting into Muslim so do i become too. First i am still Hindu neither Vicki Goswami has converted to Muslim.''' it would be shame on me after attaining my self and have written in detail in my book and also on my blog and after realizing ‘“GOD IS ONE"’ to change or convert into any religion or in my capacity to make someone change his/her religion would be like an dirty joke as this is not human-beings work leave that on God." [https://www.facebook.com/mamtam.kulkarni/posts/343961755735483]
[[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 20:04, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::Where is the proof that this Facebook page actually belongs to her? It could be anyone. That Hindustan Times link is acceptable though. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 00:16, 19 March 2014 (PDT)
:::Revising my previous opinion, I think the Hans Raj Hans page can be saved, but it will need to be completely rewritten and expanded to be suitable for the site. I'm willing to fix it, but MyMagics, you will have to fix the citations for [[Hans Raj Hans (Conversion to Islam)]] before I do this. You can read how to cite sources using [[WikiIslam:Citing Sources]]. This will have to be done because we expect editors to ensure their contributions do not require unnecessary cleanup by others.

:::Concerning the [[Mamta Kulkarni (Conversion to Islam)]] page, Axius' idea about a stub separate from our "Conversion to Islam" pages is a good idea if we cannot confirm this as false. We could just point out that there are no reliable sources that claim it and she has not acknowledged it. But I think we should move onto that in more detail after we have first fixed the Hans Raj Hans page (the issues concerning the Mamta Kulkarni page are more complex). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 08:03, 19 March 2014 (PDT)
::::MyMagics, I have moved both pages to the site sandbox URLs ([[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Mamta Kulkarni (Conversion to Islam)]] & [[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Hans Raj Hans (Conversion to Islam)]]). You can fix the citations there and once it's rewritten I'll move it back and we can add it to our list of new articles. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 08:08, 19 March 2014 (PDT)
:::::For M Kulkarni, hopefully more evidence can be found. The facebook posts are pretty powerful (if it can be confirmed by another source its hers, although I'm sure it is). Some of them (Sep 2013) have her talking about Indian gods/goddess/spiritual leaders and them being an inspiration etc. I'll try to search for some more evidence later.
:::::MyMagics, it would be great if additional evidence can be found which will make the page stronger. I know that if she knew about this page she would appreciate it as its trying to stop those rumors that she has tried to clarify herself. -[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 20:09, 19 March 2014 (PDT)
::::::Hi MyMagics. Are you going to fix those citations soon? Please let us know. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 10:42, 23 March 2014 (PDT)
{{outdent|7}}Filled all references of [[Hans Raj Hans (Conversion to Islam)]].
[http://bollywoodjournalist.com/2014/01/23/why-we-might-lose-mamta-kulkarni-all-over-again/] confirm that facebook of mamta kulkarni. [[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 07:07, 24 March 2014 (PDT)
:Oh, great! Thanks for that. Thought we lost you there. Okay, I will neaten up the Hans Raj Hans page soon and add it to the new articles list [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:New_Articles_List here]. Then we'll take a look at the other. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 07:47, 24 March 2014 (PDT)
::Could you add the author and publication names to those citations? These fields are in the [[WikiIslam:Citing_Sources#Minimal_Parameters|Minimal Parameters]]. Could you also change the formatting of the dates? So ''20 February 2014'' should be written as ''February 20, 2014'' (this is all explained in the [[WikiIslam:Citing Sources]] page I directed you to a few days ago). Thanks! [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 08:52, 24 March 2014 (PDT)
:::I'm a little disappointed. Editors should not have to prod other editors several times to complete a single task of clean-up. And when editors get around to fixing it they shouldn't really rush it and leave it half done. Please do read that [[WikiIslam:Citing Sources]] (which you clearly have not up to this point). I've archived all the pages this time and fixed the errors, so it's okay for now. And thanks for all the research you put into both pages. I will work on this page over the next few days. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 10:40, 26 March 2014 (PDT)
::::I've found a secondary source for Navraj refuting the reports of his father converting to Islam ({{cite web|url= http://zeenews.india.com/entertainment/music/singer-hans-raj-hans-embraces-islam_151012.html|title= Singer Hans Raj Hans embraces Islam?|publisher= Zee News|author= |date= February 20, 2014|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http://zeenews.india.com/entertainment/music/singer-hans-raj-hans-embraces-islam_151012.html&date=2014-03-26|deadurl=no}}) Also wanted to confirm, is Yuvraj Hans' original Facebook post in Punjabi? [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 11:06, 26 March 2014 (PDT)
:::::I [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=WikiIslam%3ASandbox%2FMamta_Kulkarni_%28Conversion_to_Islam%29&diff=106319&oldid=106091 added] some stuff for Mamta's page. There are some remaining cite links that have to be fixed. I wish she gave a reliable news organization an interview and denied the conversion and all its claims in clear words.
:::::MyMagic probably hasnt signed in yet or thought its too difficult to fix the citations or just decided to skip doing that for now.
:::::In any case, MyMagic, do you think you could fix the remaining links on Mamta's page? [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Sandbox/Mamta_Kulkarni_%28Conversion_to_Islam%29]. Sahab has fixed the links for Hans' page [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Sandbox/Hans_Raj_Hans_%28Conversion_to_Islam%29]. For Mamta's page, they are links #1,2,4,5,6. I fixed links 3,7,8,9,10. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 19:04, 26 March 2014 (PDT)
::::::I fixed the URLs for Mamta Kulkarni. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 18:39, 27 March 2014 (PDT)
{{outdent}}Both articles have been indexed by Google now (I searched for the page titles [e.g. mamta kulkarni wikiislam] and they were there) and should start getting regular traffic in a few months (the Sunita Williams page took that same amount of time). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 12:17, 5 April 2014 (PDT)
:Views already starting to come in for both Mamta Kulkarni and Hans Raj, great work! --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 13:06, 6 April 2014 (PDT)

==Outstanding Issues==
===[[Mamta Kulkarni - Conversion to Islam|Mamta Kulkarni (Conversion to Islam)]]===
I guess this article is all that it can be right now. Should it be finalized or should we look for more links? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 19:22, 31 March 2014 (PDT)
:Since we have a ref proving that Facebook page is hers, I think it's definitely enough to start finalizing. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 20:58, 31 March 2014 (PDT)
::Just a note for MyMagics; please do not misrepresent sources again. We take things like that very seriously here. You wrote "the story was that Kulkarni married converted to Islam along with her boyfriend Vicky Goswami, so that her boyfriend could be released from jail", but that is not what the sources you cite say at all. They actually imply she converted to marry him, not to set him free (because he had already done that by himself). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 05:52, 2 April 2014 (PDT)
:::I did a search myself and found a news article claiming what you wrote[http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/hindi/bollywood/news-interviews/Mamta-Kulkarni-weds-jailed-lover-sets-him-free/articleshow/19983020.cms]. However, that report brings up more problems. It states that:
:::''"A life sentence in Dubai is in effect 25 years, but prisoners can apply for early release on various grounds. Apart from good conduct, these include learning to recite passages from the Qu'ran or converting to Islam."''
:::You claim:
:::''"There is no provision in UAE's law that if somebody convert to Islam, their sentence will be lowered."''
:::Do you have a reliable source we can use to confirm that? This is quite a major issue because the article will obviously be different depending on which of those statements is true. Thanks. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 07:13, 2 April 2014 (PDT)
::::According to Wikipedia's article "[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_the_United_Arab_Emirates Freedom of religion in the United Arab Emirates]":
::::''"A list of Muslim converts is published annually. Prisoners who convert to Islam often receive a reduction in their sentences. In Dubai, prisoners (other than those facing life sentences) who memorize all or part of the Qur'an can receive a reduction in their sentences or a pardon, depending on the length of sentence and the number of sections memorized. The ruler of the Emirate of Ajman offers a cash award for prisoners who memorize all or part of the Qur'an."''
::::Wikipedia may not be the best source, but in the absence of any other, it will have to do. It also sounds about right.
::::These aren't the only 2 problems with your contributions. You also state:
::::''"After 1-2 months, Kulkarni was interviewed, it was her first interview in last few years. Kulkarni told that she never converted to Islam, neither she got married"''
::::I don't see anywhere in the sources you provided or in the BollywoodJournalist interview a denial concerning a conversion to Islam.
::::What you are doing here with sources and how you present them is akin to Islam propaganda. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 11:08, 2 April 2014 (PDT)

===[[Hans Raj Hans - Conversion to Islam|Hans Raj Hans (Conversion to Islam)]]===
Hi MyMagics. The [[Hans Raj Hans - Conversion to Islam|Hans Raj Hans (Conversion to Islam)]] is now finished. Thanks for bringing this to our attention. However, note the differences between your [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Hans_Raj_Hans_-_Conversion_to_Islam&oldid=106071 original submission] and then what [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Hans_Raj_Hans_-_Conversion_to_Islam we have now]. They are completely different articles. Not a single word from your original submission remains and every aspect of it has been tidied up and expanded on (and I'm not referring to copy-editing, but details, explanations and analysis). I say this so that you know what you should be aiming for when creating articles. You have obviously viewed our other pages on fake conversions such as [[Sunita Williams (Conversion to Islam)]] so really should have been aiming for this standard from the beginning.

Anyhow, could you please answer the following questions for us?

# What are the news stories about in the image posted under Yuvraj Hans' Facebook post? Are they claiming Hans converted or not?
# Are Navraj and Yuvraj, Hans Raj Hans' only children?
# You wrote that Hans Raj Hans rejected the claims of a conversion on February 21, but there are news reports available (including one you yourself used as a reference) that are dated February 20. Am I missing something here or was that an error on your part? Thanks. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 03:29, 30 March 2014 (PDT)
::Obviously he rejected the conversion news. If he will keep talking about it, it may cause further suspecion. In fact, his sons(he got 2, not more) was enough. [[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 07:51, 12 April 2014 (PDT)

==Thanks for the 2 articles==

You guys have done a great job with both articles. Thanks a lot! Sahab and Axius, God bless you! [[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 07:51, 12 April 2014 (PDT)

User talk:MyMagics

2014-04-12T14:51:02Z

MyMagics: /* Hans Raj Hans (Conversion to Islam) */

User talk:MyMagics

2014-03-24T14:07:53Z

MyMagics: /* Mamta Kulkarni (Conversion to Islam) */

==[[Mamta Kulkarni (Conversion to Islam)]]==
If the story can be confirmed it would be great but I think this needs further investigation. According to Wikipedia, she did convert to Islam. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mamta_Kulkarni

Usually they dont accept sources that are not true (in this case they provided two sources). I dont see anything about this on their [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mamta_Kulkarni talk page.] This will need more sources to really confirm if this was true or false. Do you have any additional sources? Our other [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Category:Fake_Conversions similar pages] provide lots of proof and that is confirmed with the fact that there is no mention of their conversion to Islam on their Wikipedia pages. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 09:29, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
:Another relevant link [http://bollywoodjournalist.com/tag/mamta-kulkarni-blog/] so I think the status of this conversion is disputed, not confirmed. It can only be considered as confirmed if reliable sources have reported it (atleast one, and multiple if possible). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 09:48, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::Hey [[User:Axius|Axius]], That whole nonsense was added by some apologist[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&diff=596368250&oldid=596312316], not even a month ago. You can ask wikipedians on teahouse[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse/chatclickthrough], if you want quick help. Someone removed that whole thing. [[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 10:29, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::That page has been vandalized many times, see [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&diff=590831468&oldid=590829726], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&diff=584399218&oldid=583984772], .. But removed everytime as well [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&diff=590246133&oldid=590244796], [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&diff=590831468&oldid=590829726]. See.

:::I think there are several issues with this page and it should be deleted.
:::1. She is not really notable (I had no idea who she was until today) and there are hundreds of similar claims.
:::2. There isn't really much of an article. We can't separate individual sentences into sections, so really all we have is an 8-sentence stub.
:::3. Both sources cannot be used. The first one is a Hindu site and is not a reliable souce. The second one clearly says "We chanced upon her blog. Can’t be sure if it is really her", and links to a dead blog that no longer exists (#3 is the biggest problem). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 11:59, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::::Yea, #3, there are no reliable source. They're all blog/misc sites as far as I can see.
::::MyMagics, the right thing would be to remove that information from Wikipedia and create a section on the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mamta_Kulkarni talk page] there asking people to use reliable sources (her personal website if any, or notable news organizations etc) for that information. Looks like it has been [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mamta_Kulkarni&action=history removed] now. Check it occasionally to make sure the false rumors are not inserted again.
::::If you want to take care of this, you can try to contact her through social media or other places (this was linked on another site: [http://www.facebook.com/mamtam.kulkarni])) and tell her about the rumors and advise her to arrange an interview with a notable organization/news agency which should publish the interview online. This can then be used on Wikipedia and other places.
::::Let me know if you need a copy of the article. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 15:04, 18 March 2014 (PDT)

:::::You both are correct. There is need of a very specific interview, since it is a Biography of living person. See [[Hans Raj Hans (Conversion to Islam)]], if it is fine. [[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 19:09, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::::::I havent looked at this new Hans article yet and will do so soon.
::::::Sahab (could you check your mail first), there are about 95,000 results for this actress for her name and Islam [https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&q=%22mamta+kulkarni%22+islam] so there are lots of rumours about this going on. According to Wikipedia, she's a former actress. We can have a stub saying that the rumors are unconfirmed and she has not confirmed this to a notable news organization. The stub will be helpful since people depend on us for deciding whether these rumors are true or not. When they see they are unconfirmed it might help stop the spread of the rumor. We can have a stub on that or maybe put these misc people on a page or keep it deleted - its up to you. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 19:41, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::::::: Yes, this paper[http://www.hindustantimes.com/entertainment/tabloid/sex-symbol-mamta-kulkarni-turns-into-a-spiritual-queen/article1-1095670.aspx] is good source, she has denied that she got got married. The actual theme of conversion. So it makes rest of the story(about conversion) baseless already.

:That's it! Here we are.. Have a look at her own facebook's post:-

"Because of my silence even this part has become very talk of the town.First i read and asked by many, about me marrying someone in USA.Some say i got 2 kids etc,etc. '''But i never married to no one neither i am still married to anyone.Second about me being married to Vicki Goswami/ and him converting into Muslim so do i become too. First i am still Hindu neither Vicki Goswami has converted to Muslim.''' it would be shame on me after attaining my self and have written in detail in my book and also on my blog and after realizing ‘“GOD IS ONE"’ to change or convert into any religion or in my capacity to make someone change his/her religion would be like an dirty joke as this is not human-beings work leave that on God." [https://www.facebook.com/mamtam.kulkarni/posts/343961755735483]
[[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 20:04, 18 March 2014 (PDT)
::Where is the proof that this Facebook page actually belongs to her? It could be anyone. That Hindustan Times link is acceptable though. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 00:16, 19 March 2014 (PDT)
:::Revising my previous opinion, I think the Hans Raj Hans page can be saved, but it will need to be completely rewritten and expanded to be suitable for the site. I'm willing to fix it, but MyMagics, you will have to fix the citations for [[Hans Raj Hans (Conversion to Islam)]] before I do this. You can read how to cite sources using [[WikiIslam:Citing Sources]]. This will have to be done because we expect editors to ensure their contributions do not require unnecessary cleanup by others.

:::Concerning the [[Mamta Kulkarni (Conversion to Islam)]] page, Axius' idea about a stub separate from our "Conversion to Islam" pages is a good idea if we cannot confirm this as false. We could just point out that there are no reliable sources that claim it and she has not acknowledged it. But I think we should move onto that in more detail after we have first fixed the Hans Raj Hans page (the issues concerning the Mamta Kulkarni page are more complex). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 08:03, 19 March 2014 (PDT)
::::MyMagics, I have moved both pages to the site sandbox URLs ([[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Mamta Kulkarni (Conversion to Islam)]] & [[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Hans Raj Hans (Conversion to Islam)]]). You can fix the citations there and once it's rewritten I'll move it back and we can add it to our list of new articles. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 08:08, 19 March 2014 (PDT)
:::::For M Kulkarni, hopefully more evidence can be found. The facebook posts are pretty powerful (if it can be confirmed by another source its hers, although I'm sure it is). Some of them (Sep 2013) have her talking about Indian gods/goddess/spiritual leaders and them being an inspiration etc. I'll try to search for some more evidence later.
:::::MyMagics, it would be great if additional evidence can be found which will make the page stronger. I know that if she knew about this page she would appreciate it as its trying to stop those rumors that she has tried to clarify herself. -[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]]) 20:09, 19 March 2014 (PDT)
::::::Hi MyMagics. Are you going to fix those citations soon? Please let us know. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 10:42, 23 March 2014 (PDT)
:Filled all references of [[Hans Raj Hans (Conversion to Islam)]].
:[http://bollywoodjournalist.com/2014/01/23/why-we-might-lose-mamta-kulkarni-all-over-again/] confirm that facebook of mamta kulkarni. [[User:MyMagics|MyMagics]] ([[User talk:MyMagics|talk]]) 07:07, 24 March 2014 (PDT)

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