User talk:Tatelyle: Difference between revisions

Senet

Thank you for your contribution to [1] about Senet. There's enough pictures in the article. I would advise just adding a referenced text for Senet.

I'm not sure about your addition of the image File:Mardin-arch.jpg. Maybe you could explain a little? thank you. --Axius (talk | contribs) 17:40, 13 July 2015 (PDT)

Sure. The Mardin arch is in the Deyrulzafran (Saffron) Monastery, in Mardin, Turkey. The Islamic claim is that Christians could only make semi-circular Roman arches, and it was only the Muslims who made different arches.

However, the Deyrulzafran Monastery has a 3rd century chapel. The floor of this chapel (the roof of the crypt) has a 13-segment arch that is so shallow, it is completely flat. It looks like a concrete roof, but it is actually dry-stone blocks. So the claim that only Muslims made non-semicircular arches is completely false. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mor_Hananyo_Monastery (Not heard of this name for the monastery. The tour guide said 3rd century, not 5th. And the site itself goes back 1,000 years before this.)

And the 6th century Qasr Ibn Warden Byzantine church just south west of Aleppo has a pointed arch. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qasr_ibn_Wardan

This image give a better view of the wedge-shaped stones that make the 'flat arch'. File:Mardin-arch-2.jpg

Tate

Your edit was:

File:Mardin-arch.jpg: "The flat arch in the Deyrulzafran Monastery, which was built almost 300 years before Islam."

The article already has this: "who first used it as early as 722 BC" and also "Pantheon in Rome, built almost 500 years before Islam" (this has a picture with it)

So did you read the section before you made your edits? The existing section already references to things in 722BC which is earlier than 300 years ago and the Pantheon which was 500 years before Islam. --Axius (talk | contribs) 16:50, 14 July 2015 (PDT)

Axius

I think you misunderstand the Islamic claim. Muslims don't say that unbelievers could not build arches, they say that unbelievers could not build non-semicircular arches. The Pantheon in Rome was designed to have a completely spherical dome (the design touches the ground). So the dome in the Pantheon is semi-circular, and does not disprove the Muslim claims at all.

However, the two examples I gave you do. The Qasr Ibn Warden church has a pointed arch, while the Deyrulzafran Monastery has a flat arch. My examples disprove the Islamic claim, the examples given thus far do not. Tatelyle (talk) 03:25, 15 July 2015 (PDT)

This is the original claim which is being refuted:

The pointed arch so characteristic of Europe's Gothic cathedrals was an invention borrowed from Islamic architecture. It was much stronger than the rounded arch used by the Romans and Normans

The refutation of that is present in the existing text as:

"it was in fact the Assyrians (not the Muslims) who first used it as early as 722 BC.[41]"

If you were trying to refute the pointed arch, we cant do that by posting a picture of a circular arch (like Mardin, the picture you posted).

If you disagree please start with quoting the original claim in the quote that you are addressing. This issue will have to wait in any case until and if Sahab (talk | contribs) comes by. I feel the existing article text does a good job of refuting what is present and its not an emergency to add additional refutation text. --Axius (talk | contribs) 16:56, 15 July 2015 (PDT)

You said: "We cant do that by posting a picture of a circular arch (like Mardin, the picture you posted)."

Mardin is not a circular arch, it is a flat arch. In fact, it is probably the flattest arch ever produced in the history of architecture.Tatelyle (talk) 02:03, 23 July 2015 (PDT)

The claim (or its response) doesnt mention a flat arch anywhere. Pointed and Rounded archs are mentioned.

For good criticism, we have to look carefully/closely at what is being claimed and then refute it precisely. The claim is about the pointed arch. If you can find pictures of pointed archs long before Islam came, that would be a good response. For example if you can find a picture for this, it would be great: "it was in fact the Assyrians (not the Muslims) who first used it as early as 722 BC". Or a picture for a pointed arch in that era, long before Islam etc. --Axius (talk | contribs) 05:07, 23 July 2015 (PDT)

I gave you an example - the Qasr Ibn Warden Byzantine church just south west of Aleppo. If you look at the picture the central arch is pointed, and is acredited as such in the site literature. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qasr_ibn_Wardan#/media/File:QasrIbnWardanChurch.jpg Tatelyle (talk) 07:27, 24 July 2015 (PDT)

This discussion would be very short, if you had a piece of text that can be referenced (which you have not provided yet throughout this discussion) and if it deals with the Islamic quote in a direct way. I proved that was wrong and the Mardin picture was not relevant (you uploaded two versions of that issue).

Currently I only have time to deal with critical issues on the site and I have spent enough time on this issue so this discussion will have to be closed. Thank you. --Axius (talk | contribs) 16:24, 24 July 2015 (PDT)