Talk:The Quran and Mountains: Difference between revisions

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{{User|IbnPinker}} {{User|Kamranlashari}}


:Thanks for your edits and on the other article. I'll let [[User:IbnPinker|IbnPinker]] work out how to integrate your edits here as he recently rewrote the introduction and a few other parts. We have a format standard whereby there should be an introductory paragraph or two. Before making extensive edits I also recommend reading https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Message_to_New_Users and the pages linked therein. For example, if you drill down you'll find the page which explains how to cite hadiths using the templates, use quote blocks etc. https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Source_Editing#Referencing_Hadith


==The idea of Mountains being Pegs had already existed among the Arabs before Muhammad==
:Regarding the added content, the History of Yaqubi point is too dubious because if you click the source and see the next few lines of the poem, it contains a prophecy about the coming of Muhammad, and therefore the poem is actually post Islamic. If that's on the Urdu page, I think it should be removed from there too.
Mountains appear to be pegs upon huge huge earth. Therefore, this idea of mountains being pegs even existed among the Arabs before Muhammad. For example, Ka’ab was one of the ancestor of Muhammad. This Ka’ab also declared mountains to be pegs long before Muhammad.


{{Quote|[http://web.archive.org/web/20170921141119/http://islamport.com/d/3/tkh/1/78/1963.html History of Ya'qubi]|فأما كعب بن لؤي، فكان أعظم ولد أبيه قدرا، وأعظمهم شرفا، وكان أول من سمي يوم الجمعة بالجمعة، وكانت العرب تسميه عروبة، فجمعهم فيه، وكان يخطب عليهم، فيقول: اسمعوا، وتعلموا، وافهموا، واعلموا أن الليل ساج، والنهار ضاح، والأرض مهاد، والسماء عماد، '''''والجبال أوتاد'''''، والنجوم أعلام، </br>
:I also think the whole day like 1000 years section should be avoided. Muslims would just point to the other verse 70:4 which says a day is like 50,000 years to show the number is not fixed/literal. It's a strong enough point just that the mountains were made during four "days", or periods of the creation process (traditionally this is understood as the first four days, but it's unclear), yet we know that mountains continue to form to this day as it is an ongoing process. Hadiths can only be supplementary but not able to prove an error in the Quran, and tafsirs are even weaker again for this purpose (though sometimes of interest to show what Muslims believed).
Ka'ab Bin Lowy was a man of great honour among his ancestors and progeny. He was the first person who gave the name of Friday to the day of Friday. Arabs used to call him 'Aroba. He gathered them and advised them to hear, learn and understand, and to know that night is deserted and silent, while day is full of sunlight, and earth is a cradle while sky is a support, '''and mountains are pegs''', and stars are signs, ...}}


The critics point out that the writer of Qur'an only recorded this old concept in Quran, thus it could be in no way a miracle of Qur'an.
:Regarding the bullet points, as mentioned above it's not clear from the Quran itself when the four days in which mountains were formed are supposed to occur (probably the first four but it's unclear). Also, I don't think it's accurate that Earth took billions of years to solidify. The sun formed about 5 billion years ago and the Earth solidified quite quickly after its formation 4.5 billion years ago. Life began within 500 million years of that. I think for this reason it's better to remove or revise most of those five bullet points and to not be too reliant on the hadiths for the argument (they just add extra strength but it needs to stand without them).


==Two scientific mistakes in Quran regarding the creation of mountains==
:I think it's true though that there is a need for better structuring and making it a bit more concise. The apologetic claims with mountains in the Quran are 1) The claim that they are like pegs in structure or function, and 2) that they stabilise the earth which comes in two flavours, a) the claim that they reduce earthquakes or b) the isostasy claim. As you've mentioned, these in fact are both scientific errors when properly analysed. Then there are in addition the other errors about mountains being cast down, and it's an ongoing process etc. where you made use of the scientific errors page. I'm not sure whether that should come first or after the other stuff but it needs to be well organized.
Critics point out that writer of Quran made two scientific mistakes regarding the creation of mountains.  
:One other missing point that could be added in terms of the function of pegs issue is that pegs fasten one thing to another. While not obvious to some people from the images, it's worth pointing out that the mountains ''are'' part of the crust (not separate material like a peg) and they just go deeper into the mantel, which is molten and not a solid mass to which the mountains are fastening anything.[[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 03:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)


==='''First Mistake''': Allah claim that it put mountains "from above" on the earth===
===Response to [[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]]===
{{Quote|[https://quranx.com/41.10 Quran 41:10]|وَجَعَلَ فِيهَا رَوَٰسِىَ مِن فَوْقِهَا
::Your response is Highly appreciable. You have made very good and strong points.


'''Sahih International:''' And He placed on the earth firmly set mountains over its surface.
(1) Your criticism of the tradition of History is Yaqubi is correct and it does praise Muhammad later. It should be removed.  


'''Mohsin Khan:''' And He placed in it stabilisers (i.e. mountains) from above.}}
(2) Regarding Verse 70:4. Yes, Muslims will use it as an excuse. Your suggestion is also acceptable to leave it till the mention of Quranic verse of 6 days creation, or the hadith from Sahih Muslim which claims it was the 2nd day of creation when the mountains were created.  
The Arabic words "'''من''' '''فوقها'''" mean "from above".  
Nevertheless, still a question is if we should step back and let them go away by making such excuse of 70:4, or will it be BENEFICIAL if we counter their excuse with arguments/proofs?
Issue is that this Quranic verse 70:4 is still not SPECIFICALLY proving that the time with Allah is "unspecified". Thus this Muslim claim of "unspecified time" is not Strong enough.  
And we could refute the verse 70:4 by saying: "The Critics point out that verse 70:4 is a contradiction in Quran itself, which shows that the writer of Quran is a human, and he himself forgot that he declared the day with him equal to 1000 years of human reckoning at other place".
It may not sound as an absolute proof, but it is  '''OUR correct position''' on this issue, and it should be thus mentioned merely alone on the basis of what we really believe.  


Critics point out that Mountains are formed through the movement and collision of lithospheric (tectonic) plates. The Quran, by contrast, states that the mountains on Earth's surface were put upon it from above by Allah, which is a scientific mistake of Quran.
(3) Regarding Ahadith and Tafasir: Yes off course they could not contradict the Quranic Verse, but the issue is that Quranic Verse is itself not supporting the Muslim claim that the time is "unspecified". It is not a proof from Muslims, but it is counted as a statement/conjecture. And this statement could indeed be rejected by Ahadith and the Tafasir, who all confirm that all the Sahaba pointed out that Quran mentioned the "specified" time of human reckoning during the process of creation.
Our proof becomes more powerful as all the Ahadith and Tafasir also confirm that sahaba were of the same opinion too.
Please note, I am not talking about the "absolute proofs", but about having "'''better proofs'''" than the other side.  


==='''Second Mistake''': Allah had already made the mountains on the day of Sunday at time of the creation of the earth and the skies===
(4) Bulleted proofs could be removed, or I search further and find out when the first mountain was formed and for how long did the earth stay in the molten state.At every cost, it seems that if would be much longer period than the 6x1000 years, or even 6x50000 years.  
{{Quote|[http://web.archive.org/web/20151024181607/http://sunnah.com/muslim/52/10 Sahih Muslim]|Abu Huraira reported that Allah's Messenger took hold of my hands and said:


Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created the clay on Saturday and He created the mountains on Sunday and He created the trees on Monday and He created the things entailing labour on Tuesday and created light on Wednesday and lie caused the animals to spread on Thursday and created Adam (peace be upon him) after 'Asr on Friday;the last creation at the last hour of the hours of Friday, i. e. between afternoon and night.}}
And at the end, I want to make it clear that I have absolutely no problem if all the edits are reversed. I wholeheartedly welcome this move too if admins believe it to be more beneficial. I have ZERO Ego in this regard and fully accept the authority of admins without getting upset. So please feel free in editing, deleting any of my stuff. Thanks.
Critics point out that according to the modern science<ref>[https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/a34910714/why-mount-everest-and-swiss-alps-are-getting-taller/ Popular Mechanics]</ref><ref>[https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/mountains#:~:text=How%20Are%20Mountains%20Formed%3F,in%20a%20head-on%20collision. National Geographic]</ref>: 
::Thankyou for your understanding and suggestions. I have now integrated your edits including a version of the time point and restructured the article to better organise the various types of apologetics and criticisms on the topic.[[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 02:57, 20 October 2021 (UTC)


*Mountains were not created on Sunday at the time of creation of the earth and the heavens.
[[User:Lehrasap|Lehrasap]] ([[User talk:Lehrasap|talk]]) 18:59, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
*But earth initially consisted of gases only. It took billions of years to come into solid form. And even after earth came into solid state, still it took billions of years more in the formation of mountains.
*And older mountains disappear with time, and new mountains start forming.
*There existed no Mount Everest 250 million years ago.  Today it is the highest mountain. It will keep on gaining even more height, but then a time will come, when it will disappear completely.
 
Not only Hadith, but Quran itself claims that Allah had already created the mountains during the creation of the earth and heavens.
 
{{Quote|1=[http://quranx.com/41.9?Context=3 Quran 14:9-11]|2=(Sahih International) Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? And He placed on the earth firmly set mountains over its surface, and He blessed it and determined therein its [creatures'] sustenance in four days without distinction - for [the information] of those who ask. Then He directed Himself to the heaven while it was smoke and said to it and to the earth, "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."}}
 
==References==
{{reflist}}
 
[[User:Kamranlashari|Kamranlashari]] ([[User talk:Kamranlashari|talk]]) 23:56, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 02:57, 20 October 2021

Thanks for your edits and on the other article. I'll let IbnPinker work out how to integrate your edits here as he recently rewrote the introduction and a few other parts. We have a format standard whereby there should be an introductory paragraph or two. Before making extensive edits I also recommend reading https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Message_to_New_Users and the pages linked therein. For example, if you drill down you'll find the page which explains how to cite hadiths using the templates, use quote blocks etc. https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Source_Editing#Referencing_Hadith
Regarding the added content, the History of Yaqubi point is too dubious because if you click the source and see the next few lines of the poem, it contains a prophecy about the coming of Muhammad, and therefore the poem is actually post Islamic. If that's on the Urdu page, I think it should be removed from there too.
I also think the whole day like 1000 years section should be avoided. Muslims would just point to the other verse 70:4 which says a day is like 50,000 years to show the number is not fixed/literal. It's a strong enough point just that the mountains were made during four "days", or periods of the creation process (traditionally this is understood as the first four days, but it's unclear), yet we know that mountains continue to form to this day as it is an ongoing process. Hadiths can only be supplementary but not able to prove an error in the Quran, and tafsirs are even weaker again for this purpose (though sometimes of interest to show what Muslims believed).
Regarding the bullet points, as mentioned above it's not clear from the Quran itself when the four days in which mountains were formed are supposed to occur (probably the first four but it's unclear). Also, I don't think it's accurate that Earth took billions of years to solidify. The sun formed about 5 billion years ago and the Earth solidified quite quickly after its formation 4.5 billion years ago. Life began within 500 million years of that. I think for this reason it's better to remove or revise most of those five bullet points and to not be too reliant on the hadiths for the argument (they just add extra strength but it needs to stand without them).
I think it's true though that there is a need for better structuring and making it a bit more concise. The apologetic claims with mountains in the Quran are 1) The claim that they are like pegs in structure or function, and 2) that they stabilise the earth which comes in two flavours, a) the claim that they reduce earthquakes or b) the isostasy claim. As you've mentioned, these in fact are both scientific errors when properly analysed. Then there are in addition the other errors about mountains being cast down, and it's an ongoing process etc. where you made use of the scientific errors page. I'm not sure whether that should come first or after the other stuff but it needs to be well organized.
One other missing point that could be added in terms of the function of pegs issue is that pegs fasten one thing to another. While not obvious to some people from the images, it's worth pointing out that the mountains are part of the crust (not separate material like a peg) and they just go deeper into the mantel, which is molten and not a solid mass to which the mountains are fastening anything.Lightyears (talk) 03:19, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

Response to Lightyears

Your response is Highly appreciable. You have made very good and strong points.

(1) Your criticism of the tradition of History is Yaqubi is correct and it does praise Muhammad later. It should be removed.

(2) Regarding Verse 70:4. Yes, Muslims will use it as an excuse. Your suggestion is also acceptable to leave it till the mention of Quranic verse of 6 days creation, or the hadith from Sahih Muslim which claims it was the 2nd day of creation when the mountains were created. Nevertheless, still a question is if we should step back and let them go away by making such excuse of 70:4, or will it be BENEFICIAL if we counter their excuse with arguments/proofs? Issue is that this Quranic verse 70:4 is still not SPECIFICALLY proving that the time with Allah is "unspecified". Thus this Muslim claim of "unspecified time" is not Strong enough. And we could refute the verse 70:4 by saying: "The Critics point out that verse 70:4 is a contradiction in Quran itself, which shows that the writer of Quran is a human, and he himself forgot that he declared the day with him equal to 1000 years of human reckoning at other place". It may not sound as an absolute proof, but it is OUR correct position on this issue, and it should be thus mentioned merely alone on the basis of what we really believe.

(3) Regarding Ahadith and Tafasir: Yes off course they could not contradict the Quranic Verse, but the issue is that Quranic Verse is itself not supporting the Muslim claim that the time is "unspecified". It is not a proof from Muslims, but it is counted as a statement/conjecture. And this statement could indeed be rejected by Ahadith and the Tafasir, who all confirm that all the Sahaba pointed out that Quran mentioned the "specified" time of human reckoning during the process of creation. Our proof becomes more powerful as all the Ahadith and Tafasir also confirm that sahaba were of the same opinion too. Please note, I am not talking about the "absolute proofs", but about having "better proofs" than the other side.

(4) Bulleted proofs could be removed, or I search further and find out when the first mountain was formed and for how long did the earth stay in the molten state.At every cost, it seems that if would be much longer period than the 6x1000 years, or even 6x50000 years.

And at the end, I want to make it clear that I have absolutely no problem if all the edits are reversed. I wholeheartedly welcome this move too if admins believe it to be more beneficial. I have ZERO Ego in this regard and fully accept the authority of admins without getting upset. So please feel free in editing, deleting any of my stuff. Thanks.

Thankyou for your understanding and suggestions. I have now integrated your edits including a version of the time point and restructured the article to better organise the various types of apologetics and criticisms on the topic.Lightyears (talk) 02:57, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Lehrasap (talk) 18:59, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

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