User:CPO675/Sandbox 1: Difference between revisions

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However Moses can't help but ask, so after three events Al-Khidr parts ways with him and tells him why he committed the acts; he made a hole in the boat as it was about to be stolen by a king if they departed at that moment, the child was killed as he would become a disbeliever, hurting his devout parents - so God will replace him with a 'purer' one, and the as for fixing the wall, he built it because it is covering a hidden treasure and two orphan boys will find this later.
However Moses can't help but ask, so after three events Al-Khidr parts ways with him and tells him why he committed the acts; he made a hole in the boat as it was about to be stolen by a king if they departed at that moment, the child was killed as he would become a disbeliever, hurting his devout parents - so God will replace him with a 'purer' one, and the as for fixing the wall, he built it because it is covering a hidden treasure and two orphan boys will find this later.


{{Quote|{{Quran|18|60-81}}|18:65 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge.
{{Quote|{{Quran|18|65-82}}|18:61 But when they reached the Junction, they forgot (about) their Fish, which took its course through the sea (straight) as in a tunnel.
18:62 When they had passed on (some distance), Moses said to his attendant: "Bring us our early meal; truly we have suffered much fatigue at this (stage of) our journey."
18:63 He replied: "Sawest thou (what happened) when we betook ourselves to the rock? I did indeed forget (about) the Fish: none but Satan made me forget to tell (you) about it: it took its course through the sea in a marvellous way!"
18:64 Moses said: "That was what we were seeking after:" So they went back on their footsteps, following (the path they had come).
18:65 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge.
18:66 Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?”  
18:66 Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?”  
18:67 He said, “Indeed, with me you will never be able to have patience.  
18:67 He said, “Indeed, with me you will never be able to have patience.  
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=== '''Islamic Commentaries''' ===
=== '''Islamic Commentaries''' ===
Al-Tabari also provided an interpretation on this meaning of this verse to mean a 'sea in the sky and earth that meet every year' (with other views in his tafsir on verse:)  
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Tabari Al-Tabari] also provided an interpretation on this meaning of this verse to mean a 'sea in the sky and earth that meet every year' (with other views in his tafsir on verse:)  
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=1&tSoraNo=55&tAyahNo=19&tDisplay=yes&Page=2&Size=1&LanguageId=1 | title=Al-Ṭabarī Tafsir verse 55:19}}|...On the authority of his father, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, in his saying: {The two seas meet.} He said: <b>A sea in the sky and earth that meet every year.</b> Others said: He meant the Persian Sea and the Roman Sea...}}
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=1&tSoraNo=55&tAyahNo=19&tDisplay=yes&Page=2&Size=1&LanguageId=1 | title=Al-Ṭabarī Tafsir verse 55:19}}|...On the authority of his father, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, in his saying: {The two seas meet.} He said: <b>A sea in the sky and earth that meet every year.</b> Others said: He meant the Persian Sea and the Roman Sea...}}
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurtubi Al-Qurtubi], a prominent Sunni Scholar also provides this view says:{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=5&tSoraNo=25&tAyahNo=53&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1 | title=Tafsir al-Qurtabi 25:53}}|Ibn Abbas and Ibn Jubayr said: It refers to the ocean of the sky and the ocean of the earth. Ibn Abbas further explained: They meet each other every year, and between them is a barrier decreed by Allah. "And a barrier between them is forbidden to be crossed." It is forbidden for the salty water to mix with the sweet water or for the sweet water to become salty.}}
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurtubi Al-Qurtubi], another prominent Sunni Scholar also provides this view says:{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=5&tSoraNo=25&tAyahNo=53&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1 | title=Tafsir al-Qurtabi 25:53}}|Ibn Abbas and Ibn Jubayr said: It refers to the ocean of the sky and the ocean of the earth. Ibn Abbas further explained: They meet each other every year, and between them is a barrier decreed by Allah. "And a barrier between them is forbidden to be crossed." It is forbidden for the salty water to mix with the sweet water or for the sweet water to become salty.}}
 
[https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Abbas/18.60 Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs] and [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/18.60 Tafsir Ibn Al Kathir], while not stating this comes from a cosmic ocean (but rather a nearby spring), also relate this story to a rock which contains the fountain of life, which pulls motifs from the near-East view of a magical waters with life giving qualities.


This idea of a cosmic ocean also has strong connections to the myth of the Islamic whale (''see [[The Islamic Whale]]'') swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back, a view held by most major traditional Islamic scholars on their Qur'an commentaries such as Al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Al-Razi, Al Qurtubi etc.
This idea of a cosmic ocean also has strong connections to the myth of the Islamic whale (''see [[The Islamic Whale]]'') swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back, a view held by most major traditional Islamic scholars on their Qur'an commentaries such as Al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Al-Razi, Al Qurtubi etc.
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An image of this can be seen in her 2017 article [https://scholarworks.boisestate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=history_facpubs ''In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision''] on P56 and P57.  
An image of this can be seen in her 2017 article [https://scholarworks.boisestate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=history_facpubs ''In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision''] on P56 and P57.  
== Delete ==
The sea and rivers aren't permanently there, they completely change over time. Even the estuaries didn't exist when the Earth was made, so God letting the two bodies going free and a permanent barrier is false. Partition forbidden to pass - uses term for never - however entre sealine changes over time with rivers broken down and destroyed - and current 'seas' 'barrier' breaks down over time
Salt vs seawater - is estuary water sweet and palatable or filled with dirt?
*BBC Science focus article on Atlantic and Pacific oceans mixing, and that previous videos showing non-mixing are incorrect https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/is-it-true-that-the-pacific-and-atlantic-oceans-dont-mix
*- such as this kind of sea https://ecobnb.com/blog/2018/11/denmark-two-seas/ - explore - two salty bodies of water?
*When did the Gibraltar sill get created? Not permanent
*Scientific claim - Quran says absolutely nothing about different densities, hence no-one ever thought it did until many years after the discovery - Scientist William Hayes denouncing miracle claim (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eziurUGGens&list=PLC0D4187BE2661850&index=2)
Similarly Ibn Kathir
later commentaries after the flat earth model was rejected by astronomers state this barrier refers to land
{{Quote|2=(And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter;) means, He has created the two kinds of water, sweet and salty. The sweet water is like that in rivers, springs and wells, which is fresh, sweet, palatable water. This was the view of Ibn Jurayj and of Ibn Jarir, and this is the meaning without a doubt, for nowhere in creation is there a sea which is fresh and sweet. Allah has told us about reality so that His servants may realize His blessings to them and give thanks to Him. The sweet water is that which flows amidst people. Allah has portioned it out among His creatures according to their needs; rivers and springs in every land, according to what they need for themselves and their lands....
..<b>(a barrier) means a partition, which is dry land.</b>}}
This is obviously incorrect as coral doesn't form in fresh water, let alone springs. And the rivers are especially not connected - so is not a barrier between two seas?
large lakes referred to as seas, there is not a barrier between them. There are many lakes, springs and lagoons all over the world, they are not one body of water as the quran claims.
[https://islamqa.info/en/answers/165094/tafseer-of-the-verse-he-has-let-loose-the-two-seas-the-salt-water-and-the-sweet-meeting-together-between-them-is-a-barrier-which-none-of-them-can-transgress-ar-rahmaan-5519-20 (https://islamqa.info/en/answers/165094/tafseer-of-the-verse-he-has-let-loose-the-two-seas-the-salt-water-and-the-sweet-meeting-together-between-them-is-a-barrier-which-none-of-them-can-transgress-ar-rahmaan-5519-20])
== External links ==
== External links ==


* https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran - ''Previous Wikiislam page on this 'miracle'''
* https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran - ''Previous archived Wikiislam page on the former site covering this 'miracle'''
* [https://atheism-vs-islam.com/index.php/scientific-mistakes-in-the-revelation/139-the-rain-model-in-muhammad-s-mind-covering-the-entire-islamic-cosmology,-including-the-flat-earth-concept The Rain Model in Muhammad's Mind] - ''an article on Islam Vs Atheism.com covering this topic and other water cycle related verses in the Quran and hadith''
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9Voh0xLLUw&t=105s Waters that Never mix] - ''YouTube video''
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9Voh0xLLUw&t=105s Waters that Never mix] - ''YouTube video''


== References ==
== References ==
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