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Revision as of 22:44, 6 November 2023 by CPO675 (talk | contribs) (→‎A barrier between two seas: @Lightyears - I've just noticed this old archived article on the old Wikiislam (https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran), and was wondering A) Is anyone planning to move or rewrite it on the new/less polemic one? B) If not, can I use some of the material there for this article please? Many thanks, CPO675)

A barrier between two seas

Introduction

When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them.

Miracle claim

The Quran is referring to XX Different bodies of water have different densities causes a barrier between them

The Qur'an

We are told that there are two seas, one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass.

It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.
  • Problem - the seas do mix - get source, there is no barrier between them.
  • Partition forbidden to pass - uses term for never - however entre sealine changes over time
  • This happens everywhere - why talking about two seas - historical context
  • Doesn't say riverنھر (Nahar) - although to be fair every large body of water was referred to using this word in classical Arabic. A specific word for ocean or lake did not exist either.

Quran 55:22 quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching.

He released the two seas, meeting [side by side]; Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses. So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? From both of them emerge pearl and coral.

Again, there is a barrier between the two seas "al-bahrain, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ".

Is He [not best] who made the earth a stable ground and placed within it rivers and made for it firmly set mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier? Is there a deity with Allah? [No], but most of them do not know.


Another reference to "the two seas" (bahrayn) is found in the story of Moses and his servant, where a man (Al-Khidr) who has special knowledge of events that have not yet happened from god:

And [mention] when Moses said to his servant, "I will not cease [traveling] until I reach the junction of the two seas or continue for a long period." But when they reached the junction between them, they forgot their fish, and it took its course into the sea, slipping away.

The full story of Moses ad Al-Khidr can be found at the bottom of the page for context.

The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedants of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature.

It may further be compared to the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath". Wensinck explains, "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative).

Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, critics argue that the verse in question is scientifically wrong.

Moses and Al-Khidr

18:65 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge.

18:66 Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?” 18:67 He said, “Indeed, with me you will never be able to have patience. 18:68 And how can you have patience for what you do not encompass in knowledge?” 18:69 [Moses] said, “You will find me, if Allah wills, patient, and I will not disobey you in [any] order.” 18:70 He said, “Then if you follow me, do not ask me about anything until I make to you about it mention.” 18:71 So they set out, until when they had embarked on the ship, al-Khidr tore it open. [Moses] said, “Have you torn it open to drown its people? You have certainly done a grave thing.” 18:72 [Al-Khidr] said, “Did I not say that with me you would never be able to have patience?” 18:73 [Moses] said, “Do not blame me for what I forgot and do not cover me in my matter with difficulty.” 18:74 So they set out, until when they met a boy, al-Khidr killed him. [Moses] said, “Have you killed a pure soul for other than [having killed] a soul? You have certainly done a deplorable thing.” 18:75 [Al-Khidr] said, “Did I not tell you that with me you would never be able to have patience?” 18:76 [Moses] said, “If I should ask you about anything after this, then do not keep me as a companion. You have obtained from me an excuse.” 18:77 So they set out, until when they came to the people of a town, they asked its people for food, but they refused to offer them hospitality. And they found therein a wall about to collapse, so al-Khidr restored it. [Moses] said, “If you wished, you could have taken for it a payment.” 18:78 [Al-Khidr] said, “This is parting between me and you. I will inform you of the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience. 18:79 As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working at sea. So I intended to cause defect in it as there was after them a king who seized every [good] ship by force. 18:80 And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief.

18:81 So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.