User talk:Mudul

hi. i am persian ex-muslim infidel and i want to build persian version of wikiislam (like russian) and be admin of it. how can i build new site?--Mudul (talk) 05:03, 26 February 2014 (PST)

Hi Mudul. Thank you for your interest in WikiIslam. We require about a front page's worth of translations (about 25-35 articles) before considering to launch a new sub-domain. You can find more information about translations at WikiIslam:Translations. One of the key rules to follow when translating these pre-sub-domain articles is that they should remain absolutely faithful to the original English work, retaining their scholarly tone and information. The reason why we like accurate translations to begin with is because it allows new editors in that particular language to understand the style, tone, quality, etc. that we expect in all languages.

However, that is not all. It also allows us to see if there are any users who would be suitable and willing to take on the responsibility of guiding the future direction of that sub-domain. To be an administrator at this site or one of its sub-domains, an editor must demonstrate that they fully understand and are willing to uphold the policies and guidelines concerning style, tone, and quality. We take a scholarly and rational approach in our conduct and criticisms (for example, we do not refer to each other as infidels). We also differ from other sites in the fact that we have stringent rules concerning the content of our articles. They should contain no politics (i.e. we do not support Israel or Palestine, we do not care about immigration, we do not care about nationalism, we do not care about East or West, we do not care about liberal or conservative politics etc.), they should contain no views about other religions or worldviews (i.e. we do not attack or endorse atheism, Christianity, Hinduism, etc.) and they should contain no opinions, only referenced facts.

Please feel free to start translating as many of the recommended articles as you want. I would also suggest that you read through our policies and guideline pages, FAQ and About Us page to get an idea of who we are and what we expect. Let me know if you have any further questions and I'll be more than happy to answer them. Thanks. --Sahab (talk) 05:44, 26 February 2014 (PST)

I was going to reply but you did a better job. We can add something like this to the FAQ (under 'Contributing'). --Axius (talk) 05:47, 26 February 2014 (PST)

Cool. Thanks! I'll take a look and try to add it in there. --Sahab (talk) 05:52, 26 February 2014 (PST)

ok. i accept. but where (what page) i am going to build my translation ? please get me link.--Mudul (talk) 06:24, 26 February 2014 (PST)

Instructions are here WikiIslam:Sandbox. Basically, you can work on articles in a user sandbox (e.g. User:Mudul/Sandbox, User:Mudul/Sandbox 2, User:Mudul/Sandbox 3), or in a WikiIslam sandbox like: WikiIslam:Sandbox/Name of your article here (e.g. WikiIslam:Sandbox/All about Islam. --Sahab (talk) 06:30, 26 February 2014 (PST)

i forgot to say: i am ex-wikipedian and i know the rules of editing of wiki page. i built too many wiki page in persian wikipedia and i am familiar with rules and guidelines and policies.--Mudul (talk) 06:32, 26 February 2014 (PST)

On second thoughts, let me know what article you have decided to begin with and I'll create the page for you. Concerning Wikipedia; we are not them and our policies and guidelines are different. So I would say it is imperative that you still read and familiarize yourself with our rules if you are serious about becoming an administrator or opening a sub-domain in the future. --Sahab (talk) 06:42, 26 February 2014 (PST)

ok.ok. i know this site isn't like wikipedia. i want to start with The Timeline of Muhammad--Mudul (talk) 06:50, 26 February 2014 (PST)

Use this link for now WikiIslam:Sandbox/The Timeline of Muhammad - Persian Translation. --Sahab (talk) 07:00, 26 February 2014 (PST)

excuse me. you don't know persian language. if any extremist muslim delete or decrease persian article, how do be aware ?--Mudul (talk) 08:29, 26 February 2014 (PST)

That's a good question. We simply use Google Translate to read the text. It isn't perfect, but it's excellent for spotting vandalism or differences. For example, if you read the conversation I had with this Czech editor, I spotted all the mistakes and changes very easily. Also, the first batch of translations will not need editing for anything other than typos. --Sahab (talk) 08:37, 26 February 2014 (PST)

ok. i don't want to insulting you or other contributers, but for example, "The Timeline of Muhammad" is very simple for persians. because they are muslims and almostly they know timelife of muhammad. if you give permission me, i will build very complex powerful articles for you on my idea.--Mudul (talk) 08:47, 26 February 2014 (PST)

No, I'm sorry. Only direct translations until we open up a sub-domain with an administrator. --Sahab (talk) 08:53, 26 February 2014 (PST)

ok. use encyclopedia of islam and quran. it's good.--Mudul (talk) 09:54, 26 February 2014 (PST)

Hi Mudul. I've removed those random-looking links. I have no idea what point you are trying to make with that last comment (if I didn't know better, I'd think it's some kind of spam). Anyway, according to GT, in your latest edit you've translated " and all the males who have reached puberty are beheaded on Muhammad's orders," as "And all adult men were beheaded at the command of Muhammad." Is that a correct reading of what you have translated? Because the point of that sentence was that the males who where beheaded were not all adults. They where "males who have reached puberty" i.e. a group that would have include children (reaching puberty doesn't make one an adult). --Sahab (talk) 09:59, 26 February 2014 (PST)

Mudul, also, preserve the pipe character in the table --> |. This separates data into columns. I fixed the two places where the columns broke. Please check this edit of mine to make sure I didnt break anything. --Axius (talk) 10:18, 26 February 2014 (PST)

that wasn't spam. it was download link from russian site. that site upload academic books. aren't you familiar with these site ? it's famous for university's student. and sorry for translating. it was my fault.--Mudul (talk) 10:39, 26 February 2014 (PST)

Can you tell me why you are removing text from references in your latest edit? --Sahab (talk) 14:52, 26 February 2014 (PST)

because i think it's nonsense and doesn't make any different.--Mudul (talk) 15:00, 26 February 2014 (PST)

We really don't care if you think its nonsense. But if that is you opinion, you should probably stop editing. Thanks. --Sahab (talk) 15:03, 26 February 2014 (PST)

Madul, exactly what is "nonsense" and why? Be specific. It is fully referenced. You are a new editor here and for you to come here and say that an article we have chosen for translation has some nonsense in it, is a little rude (especially without being specific what you're talking about). You can make the point but without saying its nonsense. Please be respectful to others on the site. See talk page guidelines. --Axius (talk) 15:07, 26 February 2014 (PST)

Madul, another example here shows that you have removed almost everything or summarized it. This is after Sahab told you that translation must be accurate. The only way to translate articles is to translate them accurately and if you dont want to do that, you have to let us know first and explain the reason in a rational way. --Axius (talk) 15:26, 26 February 2014 (PST)

i am so sorry. but i said before that your article is very simple. what does matter that for example "muhammad's saliva was mixed with my saliva" that i most wrote in article ??? i didn't want to insult others but you both are non-muslim american or european christian writers. you don't know how to critique islam. i was born as muslim. i was teach as moslem child in school and mosque. i know how to hit islam. but you both didn't critique islam as well. because you aren't familiar with islam. for example, who cares for 72 virgin? every moslem knows in heaven, huries are waiting them. why you built what article ? you didn't analyze object, just quote hadith and quran. that's not enough. you need some ex-muslim to improve you, like ali sina. he knows how to hit islam. that is why hi is success.--Mudul (talk) 15:41, 26 February 2014 (PST)

If you dont like the article or dont agree with it in some way, maybe its better to choose another article that you think can be translated directly, word for word. (like this one: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad).

Now you're saying we should not have the 72 virgins article which is pretty funny. This article is important because of the frequent denial of the topic by Muslims (for example). Ok, what should we have then? What is your idea of proper criticism of Islam? Please explain that. YOu can also give links to existing articles on other sites. Give links that you like so we can see what you think is good. We are one of the best websites for criticism of Islam. Read people's comments here: What People Say About WikiIslam. --Axius (talk) 15:46, 26 February 2014 (PST)

Actually, I'm an agnostic south-Asian ex-Muslim. Shows how much you know, doesn't it? No we don't need to change our style to that of ex-Muslims like Ali Sina. The fact that you would say that show you are not right for this site. We have a certain way of doing things and they have theirs. Personally, I would say our is a lot more effective than most other sites. --Sahab (talk) 15:50, 26 February 2014 (PST)

And I'm sorry Ax, but do you seriously think we can trust someone like him to work on translations for us? I certainly don't. And FYI Mudul, The fact that you are criticizing the 72 Virgins article (which I wrote) shows that at best you are clueless. --Sahab (talk) 15:59, 26 February 2014 (PST)

I know, I just want to see if he makes any points.

Mudul, if you like FFI or other websites you can write for them. But take a good look at our articles and then for other websites. And do give me a link for an article you think is good so I can see what is "good" in your opinion. Criticism of Islam is of many types. We have certain guidelines that we follow to maintain the quality of the content. --Axius (talk) 16:03, 26 February 2014 (PST)

because she's Charlatan. in iran, we have native Charlatan too. but nobody denials 72 virgin, because in my country people have arabic-persian quran.you can see also wikipedia or EI. our clerics says another type of lies to our people which isn't same with yours. for this, i want permission to build my articles on my opinion. --Mudul (talk) 16:14, 26 February 2014 (PST)

I asked you for examples of articles that you think are nice so please find those links. Everyone denies 72 virgins (perhaps they do not in Iran, but everywhere else they do). You are not familiar with the fact that these denials go on all the time on forums and websites. The 72 V is one top 10 ten visited article on our site so that should make you think why its important. As for your links for Wikipedia, go to the English Wikipedia and see how much information they have on the topic. Its a few lines and its basically a denial.

You're arguing here that a certain article is not that important. This argument is not valid because topics are important or not important to different audiences. All content is fine as long as it has references and follows guidelines. --Axius (talk) 16:22, 26 February 2014 (PST)

Exactly. This is not an Iranian site. It is a universal site that caters to everyone. So his criticism of the 72 virgins article is ridiculous and invalid. If a critic has to ask why that page was ever made, you know there's something wrong. And it's not an east/west thing because not all Muslim countries have a large number of Arabic speakers and there are plenty of non-Muslim and non-western countries too (Africa/Asia). --Sahab (talk) 16:27, 26 February 2014 (PST)

persian isn't international language, so visitor for my articles just came through iran. english article's belongs to you, persian's belongs to me. and about arab speaking: they know about houris. that's why they do suicide missions like 9/11 ?--Mudul (talk) 16:36, 26 February 2014 (PST)

Ok, so what kind of things would you have on the Persian site? What kind of articles would you write? Can you explain? And once again, can you give examples of pages on other websites you like? I have asked you multiple times. Please find some good links for us otherwise your arguement that material on this site does not "critique islam as well" is invalid. So give specific example and be specific.

I can write for hours on why I think certain articles on this site are not really important, but it wouldnt be a good use of my time. They are all important. The English Wikipedia has 4 million articles and importance for each of them varies. --Axius (talk) 16:40, 26 February 2014 (PST)

then let me build just one article, to show you which article is in my mind.--Mudul (talk) 16:52, 26 February 2014 (PST)

No, that shouldnt be done at this point without further discussion with us and unless we come to a resolution. You have pointed out various authors that you think do it right and we said that we do it differently. If you cant see that difference, I doubt your work will be a good fit for our site and that is an important issue.

The only way you can contribute is to do a translation and even that we'll have to be very careful about as Sahab has pointed out so even that is a remote possibility.

I'm asking you for the 4th time for a specific example of criticism of Islam (on another site) that you think is good. Also note that you can write for many other websites but if you dont agree with our English content I dont think you can contribute to our site and you can find other websites that you agree with and help them out in translations. --Axius (talk) 16:58, 26 February 2014 (PST)

Also we cannot understand persian and would have to use a translator. I dont think its worth the effort for us since you haven't addressed many of the points we raised. So at this point as Sahab said I dont think you are a good fit for our site. Again you are welcome to contact other websites and help them out but for us, we need editors who can at least give an example of "good criticism of Islam", or point out specific problems within articles, before they can say that this site isnt good in some way. --Axius (talk) 17:08, 26 February 2014 (PST)

you can see this and this. --Mudul (talk) 17:14, 26 February 2014 (PST)

Sorry we dont understand persian. Do you have any English articles you have written that I can look at? You can make that stuff on blogs, the same kinds you linked but as I mentioned if you dont like our English content, there's only a small possibility that your persian writing will be a good fit for our site. --Axius (talk) 17:20, 26 February 2014 (PST)

So here's a Google translate for the first link. Lets see what it says. [1]. And you said "you didn't analyze object, just quote hadith and quran." while this link has 3 screen captures of quotes. We quote and analyze too. We have certain pages that only have quotes and everything else basically uses quotes and analyzes them. Also you have yet to explain why the content you talked about was "nonsense". Can you go back and explain that? It was fully referenced, right? So it cant be nonsense. It is part of Islamic scripture. --Axius (talk) 17:24, 26 February 2014 (PST)

I moved the discussion here to your page. --Axius (talk) 17:34, 26 February 2014 (PST)

I've just looked at that page and I see nothing of note there. Certainly not anything to warrant Mudul's reaction. There is plenty of analysis on the 72 Virgins articles. For example the grading of each individual narration. But these are facts that cannot be bickered over, so maybe his definition of "analysis" is opinionated material that can be forever argued? And as you mentioned, they also "quote" plenty of stuff. The way I see it; Mudul is upset that we can notice differences in the Persian language article pretty easily and he was not allowed to make his additions to the Timeline article, so he decided to throw a temper-tantrum. It's unbelievable that he comes onto a website, ignore guideline that were explained to him a few hours earlier, insults the site, insults its editors by making false claims about them, demonstrates that he does not understand the site's approach and goals at all, and now is talking about a part of this site being handed over to him, a perfect stranger. Does he seriously think the world works like that? --Sahab (talk) 18:17, 26 February 2014 (PST)

Here's a fresh comment posted on the web 1 hour ago about the 72 virgins article that invalidates Mudul's opinion that the article is not important: [2] - "This was the most comprehensive link I happened to look up relating to virgins for martyrs." (no comment on the accuracy of the comment but the point is, we have information that people find useful), so yes not only that but every page on the wiki is important. --Axius (talk) 04:52, 28 February 2014 (PST)

And here's a fresh comment from someone with a Shi'ite Muslim backround (like Mudul) denying the 72 virgins ("You only get one and she's a perfect woman, the 72 thing is a myth"). Thus it invalidates his other claim that all Muslims already know and admit the 72 virgins thing. That guy with the Shi'ite Muslim background actually refers to us as "a Jewish run propaganda site," on the next page after someone challenges his claim with a link from us. 05:25, 28 February 2014 (PST)