User talk:Saggy

Hi. That page uses title-case for capitalization of headings[1]. And there should not be multiple Qur'an translations used to illustrate a single error (i.e choose only one translation from the USC site). Both those errors were in your first edit to the page but I fixed them[2]. You have repeated those same errors in your second edit. You will have to fix them before your edits can be considered. Thanks. --Sahabah (talk) 13:27, 5 January 2014 (PST)

I've reverted your edit again. You are aware this talk page discussion has been initiated. If you do not understand something here, the answer is not to reinsert whatever was reverted with a summary saying "btw I don't understand". That's basically ignoring this talk page. If you don't understand something then ask. --Sahabah (talk) 19:07, 9 January 2014 (PST)

Not much time . ok , what am I to do to caps? If u revert instead of correcting (which is a loss to the readers), others dont mind? Saggy (talk) 02:48, 10 January 2014 (PST)

No they don't mind. Quality standards are high on this wiki. If editors do not have the time to adhere to guidelines/stick to proper etiquette or take the care to format their contributions properly, we'd rather they not edit at all. Do you think it's fair if others have to waste their time cleaning up after someone else's edits? We don't. --Sahabah (talk) 11:49, 10 January 2014 (PST)

Got it. Got mistake. Thanks. (Or u want me to stop doing anything until we complete discussing?)Saggy (talk) 02:53, 10 January 2014 (PST)

No, that's fine. Thanks. --Sahabah (talk) 11:42, 10 January 2014 (PST)

hi Saggy, this Science error/Quran page is popular and is often linked to by people so its important for this page to be as strong as possible. Some errors are more obvious than others. Some only appear in one translation and so on. For example the Golden Calf statue verse that you added was great. It obviously goes against science and is a glaring error while some others are not that obvious.

One idea I have is to keep the strongest errors at the top and the less obvious ones (or the ones that can be explained in some way by apologists) near the bottom in another section. I tried making some rules here: Talk:Scientific Errors in the Qur'an (draft). Let me know your thoughts. --Axius (talk) 08:19, 1 February 2014 (PST)

How can we judge weakness? Its is everyones POV. EG Every claim about the sky is weak on its own. But when put together its a huge blunder. We already have sections for the branchs of science. At most we'll put weak claims at bottom of each section. of course we mustnt say - xyz is a weaker claim , we can try to explian it or justifiy it as much as possible..Saggy (talk) 12:52, 1 February 2014 (PST)

Hi, I moved your comment back to keep it in one place. Some errors are present in Arabic and the translations, while others are present only in the translations. For example Constellations. Apologetist might say the Quran just means "collections of light" and yes these were made by Allah for humans (for example) and he was just talking in a general sense. A more glaring error is the Golden statue or mathematics of inheritance. So some are more obvious, the others are a little iffy and have some conditions.

You might have some good points, I'm myself unsure about this issue so I'm just talking about it to see if there's any concrete ideas. So thats one idea, to put weak claims at the bottom.

Another suggestion is to look at other websites like Answering-Islam and expand on the evidence for these errors, for example with arabic or tafsir.

Another thing. Verses should be checked against the 3 translators to make sure those are the only ones we're using. I saw an instance where there was another translation being used and it was corrected. I will try to go through all of them.

Anyone else have anything about this? --Axius (talk) 16:06, 1 February 2014 (PST)

3 translators is ok. but we cant cry about translation matters in the article itself or lose content bcoz of them. on the long run give Every claim its main article like we have lying forehead or sunset in a muddy spring. As for constellations, other translations are "towers" or "mansions"- Both are disgusting if we take them literaly. And the calf statue may be defended by just calling it a miracle. Saggy (talk) 23:05, 1 February 2014 (PST)

Alright then fair enough unless anyone else has anything to add for improving the article. --Axius (talk) 10:29, 2 February 2014 (PST)

For WikiIslam:Sandbox/Qur'anic_Claim_of_Having_Details, how did you find these verses? For example the first two. Through your own study? --Axius (talk) 18:16, 24 February 2014 (PST)

Yea--Saggy (talk) 07:45, 25 February 2014 (PST)

Thats great. I will try to work on this article. I had just added a few lines at the top. --Axius (talk) 10:48, 25 February 2014 (PST)

Just a quick pointer for Saggy concerning that page; readers should not be directly addressed. So rather than say, "What will this beast be like? How come it will be able to talk to people?", it should say something like, "The Qur'an does not elaborate on the physical appearance of this beast or how it would communicate with humans". The Isra and Mi'raj section seems to have it right. --Sahab (talk) 13:51, 25 February 2014 (PST)

Yea, we'll have to work on that after the verses have been put in.

Saggy how are you finding these verses? Through search or by reading the verses yourself and searching for issues? Any plans of getting more?

Still not sure about the article or where it will go but I think its a good idea (needs more verses though). Its different than the usual "errors/contradictions" and so on. Its another kind of defect but we'll see how it goes. --Axius (talk) 19:21, 25 February 2014 (PST)

Some are old things i just recollect (like i heard- isra-mi'raj is incomplete without reading bukhari)--Saggy (talk) 09:19, 26 February 2014 (PST)

Some of the Five Pillars could be included. They're covered here (not a very well written article , but it provides the necessary info). There's also the Jizyah. --Sahab (talk) 06:09, 27 February 2014 (PST)

To make it easy for us to track discussions among current editors, I moved the discussion about logical errors to the Discussions page Discussions page (linked on the left). I'll reply there soon. --Axius (talk) 04:35, 6 March 2014 (PST)

Just letting you know that there's a new "Editing" section on the left that has all the links related to Editing (including Discussions). --Axius (talk) 15:30, 6 March 2014 (PST)

Hi Saggy. I've corrected your use of contracted forms and the missing question mark here. Please read the WikiIslam:Article Style and Content Guide. Thanks. --Sahab (talk) 11:58, 8 March 2014 (PST)

I thought I'd ask you since you've been interested in the errors/contradictions topics. Inheritance laws (Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur'an#Mathematical_Error_in_Hereditary_Laws) have had some responses like [3] and [4].

Do you know how to respond to these rebuttals and see if there's anything to investigate here? --Axius (talk | contribs) 17:56, 12 March 2014 (PDT)

Easy- site 1-"Out of the remaining (11 out of 24), the two daughters are going to get one-third each. " site 2- "And for the daughters 2/3 of what remains = 2/3 of 13/24=13/36 of the total amount" This remaining is assumed. Where is it mentioned? Nothing is mentioned so u have to divide whole (24 / 24) into two thirds. Other sites do the same thing.[5] theres in fact no consistency in whom to divide the remainder among. One site[6] divides watever looks comfortable, whole or remains, only to ensure that fractions add upto 1 or a lesser value. [This http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/inh_01.htm] uses the contradictory shares of sisters to convert more than 1 to less than 1. Some use an old law of increasing denominator in the sum so that it is equal to numerator- but they violate all the stated fractions[7]. First, 4:11-12 have 10+ rules and and 4:176 has 4 rules contradicting some of them so lots of whims will show up. We are not even talking about gender injustice in this.--Saggy (talk) 04:21, 14 March 2014 (PDT)

Ok. We should then think about making an article about this later on. Currently this exists but it may not be dealing with the rebuttals and its also an essay by another author, so we can make a new article about this later. --Axius (talk | contribs) 09:46, 14 March 2014 (PDT)

Ya start it.--Saggy (talk) 12:05, 14 March 2014 (PDT)

For now I just added a link to this section to the tasks page. [8]. --Axius (talk | contribs) 14:59, 14 March 2014 (PDT)

Can you please explain how you interpreted Bukhari 4:52:51 to mean "Orbit of the Sun is comparable to a Bow". From a cursory glance, it doesn't say anything of the sort. What it says is that having an area the size of a bow (not the bow itself) in heaven is better (not comparable) to having the entire earth (not sun). That same hadith continues by saying, "A single endeavor in Allah's Cause in the afternoon or in the forenoon is better than all that on which the sun rises and sets." If we apply your logic to the rest of the same narration, it would mean that the "Orbit of the Sun is comparable to a single endeavor in Allah's Cause" is also a valid interpretation, something which it is not. I find it hard to understand how you could misinterpret something so obvious, so please do explain it to us. Can you also stop rushing things (like you had previously agreed)? This way you would avoid making typos such as "comaprable". --Sahab (talk) 16:03, 5 April 2014 (PDT)

Bukhari 4:52:53 says, "A place in Paradise as small as the bow or lash of one of you is better than all the world and whatever is in it." So clearly the connection you made between the shape of a bow and the sun's orbit does not exist. --Sahab (talk) 16:26, 5 April 2014 (PDT)

Saggy, I would also like to know how you made that deduction and add to this query. Recently you interpreted the Horseman thing and now this certain one as well. Its good that you're exploring new verses and hadiths but there is a problem in how you're interpreting text. If you dont understand a certain text, you can ask us on your talk or on the forum page. --Axius (talk | contribs) 04:34, 6 April 2014 (PDT)

Suppose you wanted to say the same thing, no matter if it sounds good or mediocre: "A place as small as X is better than that on which Y happens." Of course "that" could refer to "place " better than to "X". But if X is not something typically small, what is the point in saying it? Bow must have the other meaning (which is backed up by that sun travelling-prostrating and permission verse) Come on, u could have said as small as... anything. Why bow? You can think of several adjectives on hearing the word bow, except "small." Whether this was narrated at war (single endeavor) or some other hadith sounds partly similar, does not matter. That could be a change of the simile made in the first place. Is a place anything like a bow? The sun rises and sets? Not at all. Only a person who thinks the sun runs on a semicircle over the other place(earth) would have said "bow." Saggy (talk) 10:53, 6 April 2014 (PDT)

"But if X is not something typically small, what is the point in saying it?"

A bow is small in comparison to the earth or in comparison to a lot of things.

"Bow must have the other meaning"

You only assert that it must, but you haven't provided any convincing reasons why.

"Come on, u could have said as small as... anything. Why bow?"

Because they were warriors and Muhammad was describing where they would go when they die in battle. Is that really too much of a stretch? No, it makes perfect sense. In fact it's what most people would get from reading that verse. Your explanation just comes of as a stretch.

"You can think of several adjectives on hearing the word bow, except "small.""

Words such as "dying" and "in battle" spring to mind. And I don't agree with your "except small" comment. A bow is small in comparison to the world, so there is no valid reason why it could not be described as "small".

"Whether this was narrated at war (single endeavor) or some other hadith sounds partly similar, does not matter."

Of course it does. That is what we call "context". Context is what helps us understand the meanings behind text. It is what Muslim apologists usually ignore. And of course what "some other hadith sounds partly similar" says is important. It's important because it is describing the exact same event, but via a different narrator. Even the one hadith you are misinterpreting debunks your ideas when read fully (refer to my original post)'

"Is a place anything like a bow?"

The hadith does not claim any place is like a bow, it is referring to the size of the bow. You don't need that to be explained. It is written in plain English for everyone to see (i.e. "as small as a bow").

"Only a person who thinks the sun runs on a semicircle over the other place(earth) would have said "bow.""

You havn't shown that at all. Your reasoning is convoluted and ignores the obvious meaning. I would suggest sticking to hadiths that are clear errors rather than ones that need your interpretations. --Sahab (talk) 12:10, 6 April 2014 (PDT)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Saggy, so that we're clear this is the the hadith:

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 51: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "A place in Paradise as small as a bow is better than all that on which the sun rises and sets (i.e. all the world)." He also said, "A single endeavor in Allah's Cause in the afternoon or in the forenoon is better than all that on which the sun rises and sets."

Breaking it up, "X is better than Y".

X = "A place in Paradise as small as a bow." (a small sized object)

Y = "all that on which the sun rises and sets" (some kind of large space according to the Quran)

Your title was "Orbit of the Sun is comparable to a Bow". This is incorrect. The size of a bow is being compared to the size of the sun's place of rising and setting.

The hadith means "A tiny place in Islamic Heaven is better than a huge place which is not part of Heaven".

If you're talking about the arc of a bow (golden part here which is a semi circle) being compared to what an observer on Earth sees, this is not an error. We see that kind of semi-circle even today as we see the sun form an arc. A scientist can say "look how the Sun makes (or seems to make) a semi circle around the Earth". So these things can be explained. This is like the horseman hadith where there wasnt any interpretation like the one you were saying there was. As again if you come across a hadith and you're not sure of the meaning you can ask us. On the other hand, the hadith could be added to as supporting evidence ("the sun rises and sets"): Geocentrism_and_the_Quran#Muslims_around_the_time_of_Muhammad but I think its weak on its own on the Errors page: --Axius (talk | contribs) 12:46, 6 April 2014 (PDT)

Sahab what do you think of the addition here? [9] Since the hadith is saying the same thing about the sun. (sun rises and sets). If you dont agree its fine for it to be removed (its up to you). --Axius (talk | contribs) 13:00, 6 April 2014 (PDT)

Hi Ax. Yeah, I've removed it. Even with those surrounding hadith, this particular hadith is not making any reference whatsoever to the orbit of the sun. If I can see this and you can see this, then so can most other people. As you noted, the object being "compared" to the bow is something other than the sun itself. There is not "ifs" or "buts" about it. The second hadith down from that one confirms the meaning (which was obvious anyway.). It's like a Muslim saying a can of Pepsi is more refreshing than all that is inside a coffee cup, then us accusing him of saying a ceramic cup is more refreshing than a soft drink. --Sahab (talk) 13:20, 6 April 2014 (PDT)

Ok then, sounds good. Yea that analogy is similar. --Axius (talk | contribs) 14:26, 6 April 2014 (PDT)

Hi Saggy. I've deleted that page. A page like that is something that would interest "Quranists", not us. --Sahab (talk) 13:03, 10 April 2014 (PDT)

I've moved the content to his personal sandbox for now: User:Saggy/Sandbox - Contradictions in the Qur'an and Hadith. I'll send an email about this. --Axius (talk | contribs) 15:01, 10 April 2014 (PDT)

We have an (old) article about the very same contradiction mentioned by Saggy (Muhammad's Miracles). If you read the section on Bukhari's criteria, you'll see that Muslims have contradictions between the Qur'an and Hadith covered. Thus it renders the article completely pointless. In fact, Muslims will probably think it's funny and talk about how we don't know anything about the "science of hadith". That's on top of the fact that such an article would only be used for Qur'anist propaganda. If the very idea is pointless, then I don't see any benefit from letting an editor waste their time working on it. That is why I deleted it rather than just leave it in a sandbox. --Sahab (talk) 15:39, 10 April 2014 (PDT)

I just dont have energy to debate about this at the moment so I deleted the Sandbox page. --Axius (talk | contribs) 16:36, 10 April 2014 (PDT)

What if I find more contradictions?Saggy (talk) 03:25, 11 April 2014 (PDT)

Here I've made a page for you that gives you the freedom to do any kind of QHS work (since that is something you like doing). You can reorganize content there using section headings (logical error, hadith errors, contradictions, etc):

User:Saggy/Sandbox - Issues with Quran and Hadith - use this for any new work or new ideas to keep it in the same place.

Just keep in mind that we can have a democratic discussion together later on as to whether certain content will be approved or not for conversion from sandbox to main space. My view is that interesting QHS can be re-used in other places too in some way so if you have discovered verses or hadiths that are interesting, it is totally OK for them to go in a personal sandbox page of your own. Sandboxes are all excluded from Google search so no one can find them unless they come to recent changes/contributions and explore that way. Doing this does not harm the quality of the main content as sandbox content has to be carefully reviewed to make sure it complies with guidelines and the mission.

You can keep adding content for existing pages as you are doing (Scientific errors in hadith, in the Quran, Contradictions in the Quran etc.) As before we will review those to see if they are ok as that is content in the main space.

Doing a short reply for Sahab, if Quranists want to use content on our site for any purpose, its a good thing. It brings them to our site and they have effectively approved content on our site (I think its a plus for us). They're a minority so I would not worry about them. I can make many more points but my point is that all alternatives can be argued for equally. There are advantages and disadvantages for each alternative.

"you'll see that Muslims have contradictions between the Qur'an and Hadith covered." - those are only contradictions for miracles, not other topics. --Axius (talk | contribs) 04:25, 11 April 2014 (PDT)

To Saggy: My action was not based on the quality or length of the page (I was obviously aware that you would add to it). It was based on the fact that the actual idea behind the article was not suitable. Regardless, Axius has recreated the page so you can carry on working on it.

To Axius: "those are only contradictions for miracles, not other topics"

Did you read that section about Bukhari's criteria? Mat'n applies to ALL contradictions between the Qur'an and hadith.

"if Quranists want to use content on our site for any purpose"

Strawman. I never objected to them using this site. My point is that it ONLY benefits their propaganda, nothing else. If we allow something like this, why not also allow Atheistig to write an article about how unreliable the hadith are? Let's go all the way and invalidate 95% of our material just to keep 1 editor happy. --Sahab (talk) 04:34, 11 April 2014 (PDT)

"Let's go all the way and invalidate 95% of our material just to keep 1 editor happy." ----  :-) this is an imaginary situation that hasn't happened yet so lets not do that.

He knows its a Sandbox page that later may or may not be approved so whats the issue? I dont see any.

"Mat'n applies to ALL contradictions between the Qur'an and hadith." - is Bukhari's criteria the golden absolute rule on deciding whats a contradiction? I would say no. To me a Sahih hadith is Sahih. I would say that Bukhari does not have the authority to invalidate the Hadiths of other Hadith collectors (like Muslim). Also if the criteria is to delete things that are in contradiction with each other, the Quran contradicts itself in various verses, so what does one do about that? To most people they are all valid Islamic sources (especially Sahih hadiths). All these points can be mentioned on a page about Quran/hadith contradictions. All of these things seen together expose more serious problems with Islam and create challenges for people reading them.

"My point is that it ONLY benefits their propaganda" - Again they are a minority. The other side effect is letting the rest of the Muslims know that these contradictions exist. Most Muslims view hadiths as holy. I would say that they would have to deal with the contradiction when they see it and it creates a challenge for them.

My main point here again is that cases can be argued against equally. Its a Sandbox page and people have the right to work on a Sandbox which later may or may not be approved (as long its not an obvious content violation). --Axius (talk | contribs) 05:13, 11 April 2014 (PDT)

You have not dealt with anything I've actually said, so no they can't be argued against equally. I've mentioned several times why I deleted that page from the sandbox but you continue acting like I never explained. If that is how you get your way in a discussion, then it's very effective. Your opinion on Bukhari's criteria is irrelevant. Mat'n is a well known thing. Hence, contradictions between the Qur'an and certain hadith will not effect mainstream Islam in the slightest. And wth, you're telling editors to stay away from me now? The discussion we're having now isn't even on my talk page, so maybe you should have considered a more appropriate time or place to mention this or considered how it would look to others? --Sahab (talk) 05:09, 11 April 2014 (PDT)

"Matn"'s definition on Wikipedia doesnt mention Bukhari or the contradiction issue, why is that? [10]. "text of the report" =matn is what I'm seeing, not a contradiction with the Quran issue. Are there are sources to support what Matn means? As I mentioned, the issue of deletion arises at the point of review when something is being considered for main space but not before that when it is in a temporary condition (in the Sandbox). Saggy knows it may or may not be approved. As for whether you're right or I'm right, I've shown that points can be made on both sides. Lets do that full debate when the time comes for a review of that piece. --Axius (talk | contribs) 05:23, 11 April 2014 (PDT)

To hightlight it again our page [11] that you pointed to in the begining and you refered to it again, claims "His third criteria is mat'n, i.e. the content of a narration must not be in contradiction with the Qur'an.", but there's no reference for that. According to other sources Matn means "text of the hadith", not "must not be in contradiction with the Quran". Bukhari's criteria of this contradiction cannot apply to other Hadith scholars (it is his own personal opinion). And even if we were to assume such a criteria, we are faced by the question: Is a Sahih hadith being declared invalid simply because of the contradiction? Why was it considered in the first place if it was actually invalid? The hadith was considered authentic because the events narrated actually happened.

In any case a sourced definition of Matn would be one point. --Axius (talk | contribs) 05:36, 11 April 2014 (PDT)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Visiting this again and stressing this point:

Mat'n applies to ALL contradictions between the Qur'an and hadith.

This is not correct as Mat'n means "the text of the hadith" [12] and has nothing to do with "Contradictions between Quran and Hadith". The source article [13] you linked for Miracles should have the definition of Matn sourced correctly. I believe this is a page that an author made with the username starting with J (forgot the full name). So this line:

His third criteria is mat'n, i.e. the content of a narration must not be in contradiction with the Qur'an.

is incorrectly implying that Matn = the content of a narration must not be in contradiction with the Qur'an. --Axius (talk | contribs) 10:57, 11 April 2014 (PDT)

Please note [14] and see the edit summary. --Axius (talk | contribs) 05:42, 11 April 2014 (PDT)

But the verses are clear. 1 day = 1000 years or 1 day=50000 yrs. Human days are not mentioned. Have you read the speed of light hoax?Saggy (talk) 05:51, 11 April 2014 (PDT)

"Verily a Day in the sight of thy Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning"

It means one day for ALLAH, is the same as 1000 years for HUMANS.

See that? "Your reckoning" = human's perspective. --Axius (talk | contribs) 06:03, 11 April 2014 (PDT)

What's wrong with u? U quote years and still insist on days? Reckoning means our "count" not days or years. Everywhere online the meaning is 1000/50000 years not days. Of course it is same perspective for everyone. Time flows the same for all ( we or anyone outside the solarsystem). The measurement and units differ. (This also debunks the Einsteins theory of relativity miracle claim for the above verses). A day for us is 24 hours. Nobody can change this. Day is defined by a planets rotation! His day is nothing to do with our 24 hrs in anyway! Why do i even need to say this when the equation is about years? Let me show one more : "He regulates the affair from the heaven to the earth; then shall it ascend to Him in a day the measure of which is a thousand years of what you count" 32:5. Clear length of a day is given. Saggy (talk) 11:39, 11 April 2014 (PDT)

Well I'm sorry, you were right from the start - my mistake. I got confused somehow and didnt read the hadith carefully enough. It should have been easy to spot that but I missed it somehow (I probably was in a hurry at that time). It is indeed a 1000 years. I reverted it back now. [15]. --Axius (talk | contribs) 15:02, 11 April 2014 (PDT)

"Have you read the speed of light hoax" - I've heard of the speed of might miracle but know nothing more than that. There is an article here about that: [16]. Is this what you were thinking of? --Axius (talk | contribs) 15:03, 11 April 2014 (PDT)