WikiIslam

User:CPO675/Sandbox 1

Revision as of 18:59, 22 December 2023 by CPO675 (talk | contribs) (→‎Antiquity interpretation)

A barrier between two seas and the cosmic oceans

Order

  1. Intro
  2. What they Quran says - short paragraph on the science
  3. Apologist claim? here or above the science?
  4. Why is it incorrect - the science and refutation of apologist claim.
  5. refutation of apologist claim
  6. Why is it incorrect
  7. The historical context
  8. Antiquity interpretation intro
  9. Moses and Khidr story
  10. Tommaso article linking it
  11. Other Islamic literature


Main page image to upload (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tSZVB0TTdpOtG0Y5sUbrCrsBiiHFZ-Io/view?usp=sharing). Rights brought from iStock to use on website.https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/estuary-difference-between-fresh-water-and-sea-water-from-above-gm1462114312-495765419?phrase=estuary+freshwater+saltwater&searchscope=image%2Cfilm

Introduction

The Quran refers to two different bodies of water, emphasising there is one sweet and one fresh, and that they meet but there is a barrier between them. Both early and medieval Muslims, and modern Academic scholarship, have identified this with an ancient belief of there being a cosmic ocean of water surrounding the world.[1] Other classical scholars have attributed it to the way fresh water bodies of water are separate to the salty seas and oceans in general, rather than two specific bodies of water not taking the verse literally.[2][3]

Some modern Muslims have tried to reconcile the relevant verses with natural phenomena, including estuaries meeting the sea, and different seas having different salt levels. However critics do not believe the verses accurately describe this, and actually conflicts with the description as will be stated in the article. When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them.

The Qur'an

There is a consistent theme of 'the two seas' ("al-baḥrayn, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), with the exact same term being used 5 times in the Quran.

We are told that there are two seas ("al-baḥrayn, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will never be passed.

It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.
Quran 25:53

Q55:22 quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching[4].

He released the two seas, meeting [side by side]; Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses. So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? From both of them emerge pearl and coral.
Quran 55:19-22

And again in Q35:12 we are told the two seas with one being freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter). But from both come fresh meat (presumably fish) and ornaments to wear come from both (presumably coral and pearl as mentioned above in verse Q 55:22).

And the two seas are not alike: this, fresh, sweet, good to drink, this (other) bitter, salt. And from them both ye eat fresh meat and derive the ornament that ye wear. And thou seest the ship cleaving them with its prow that ye may seek of His bounty, and that haply ye may give thanks.
Quran 35:12

Again, there is a barrier between the two seas.

Is He [not best] who made the earth a stable ground and placed within it rivers and made for it firmly set mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier? Is there a deity with Allah? [No], but most of them do not know.
Quran 27:61

Another reference to "the two seas" is found in the story of Moses and his servant, where he meets a man (Al-Khidr) who has special knowledge of events that have not yet happened from god, and tests Moses to carry out seemingly immoral tasks without asking him why:

And [mention] when Moses said to his servant, "I will not cease [traveling] until I reach the junction of the two seas or continue for a long period." But when they reached the junction between them, they forgot their fish, and it took its course into the sea, slipping away.
Quran 18:60-61

The full story of Moses ad Al-Khidr can be found at the bottom of the page for context.

Apologists claims

Estuaries and salt water

Apologists claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them, and even that the descriptions show advanced knowledge of science that could not have been known to a human. You can see the images referenced in this link which are repeated on many Islamic websites.

The first claim is around fresh water from rivers meeting seas/oceans of salt water, with the transition stage known as estuaries:

Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water. (see Figure 4)

Figure 4: Longitudinal section showing salinity (parts per thousand ‰) in an estuary. We can see here the partition (zone of separation) between the fresh and the salt water. (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, p. 301, with a slight enhancement.)

This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation).
"From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.", https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm. 

Note that in the above referenced claim in the book (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman), they have added the words “Zone of Separation” and “The partition" onto Figure 4 (saying “with slight enhancement”), which the book itself does not have - clearly to link the word 'partition' as translated into English by several authors in the Quran with the scientific book.

Issues with this interpretation

Problems with miracle claim

Critics point to issue's with inserting this is a scientific miracle, or even scientifically accurate:

  1. Firstly as with all claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clearly described a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into typical categories of selective literalism, de-historicization and pseudo-corelation etc. (see Scientific Miracles in the Quran), taking advantage of ambiguity in language to fit a modern reading rather than an honest one.
  2. The idea of the density of salt water being more than freshwater, separating the two was already known at least by the time of Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC); “The drinkable, sweet water, l of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.”[5]
  3. This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sailing nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as they have done since ancient times,[6] as the colours are often different (as seen in the image on this page), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier placed by God between the two waters.
  4. This description also implies there is no mixing between them at all, and could just as easily be written by someone believing that someone believing there was no mixing at all between them.

A deeper analysis can be found on the now defunct and archived former Wikiislam website' page on scientific miracles Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran.

Problems with general accuracy

We are told that there are specifically the two seas (al-baḥrayn).

  • This uses the definite particle 'al' for 'the' for a specific two seas, not general.
  • 'baḥr' for large body of water/sea.
  • the dual suffix/ending in 'ayn' means there are two of them, as apposed to singular or plural (3 or more).
  1. Yet this happens in many places (there are over 1,200 documented estuaries,[7] i.e. more than two) across the world - nowhere does the language suggest this is the case, as to match this Qur'an verse it must be referring to a single specific but unnamed estuary. There are many far better ways to phrase this if it meant this phenomena.
  2. There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. Salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them here and on CostalWiki for accessible science for the general reader), however despite what it may look like on the surface they all mix to varying degrees - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they cannot pass.
  3. It does not use the word specifically for river (نھر "Nahar" - a word also used elsewhere in the Qur'an to describe a river) and sea, which would have been an accurate way to describe it. There is no need to describe something inaccurately, as they don't describe many other natural processes - e.g. formation of deserts and forest, and so could have just left it out completely and avoided confusion.
  4. If the mixing zones isn't part of either 'sea' being mentioned but a 'barrier', then there are arguably 3 bodies of water in, and the language could reflect the mixing zone by stating that one of them is made of both sweet and salty water (brackish water[8]). This also would separate it from the other specific seas being referred to as we will discuss in the next section.

Two actual seas

Secondly, it states the verses not specifically mentioning sweet and salty waters are referring to different seas with different kinds of waters:

Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density. For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water. When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometres into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics. The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth (see figure 13).


Figure 13 (Click here to enlarge)

Figure 13: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)
"From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.", https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm. 
Problems with miracle claim and general science
  • Firstly, it is a leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two 'seas' mentioned in Quran 55:19-20 from the others, as they all use the same phrase to refer to a specific two seas it is implied the audience is already familiar with.
  • Quran 35:12 states ornaments for us to wear are from both seas, salty and sweet linking the coral and pearl this to the sweet and salty seas as repeated in verse 55:22.
  • Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them implies this is for two specific seas, while this phenomena occurs in many places, even the North Atlantic, South Atlantic the Pacific Oceans have different salt levels.[9] And there are more examples of aquatic sills[10], with some notable examples given here - which does not match a single specific case as the definite article used in the Quran suggests. For vertically mixed zones where salinity changes rapidly, a pycnocline zone, and more specifically, a halocline zone[11], is always a mixture of fresh water and salt water - in fact it is a product of their mixing.
  • For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing, this is not true, as Piers Chapman of Texas A&M University writes on Waterencyclopedia[12]: 'Mixing in the ocean occurs on several scales.. The best-known example of this process, known as salt fingering, occurs where very salty water from the Mediterranean outflow mixes into the North Atlantic... Most mixing, however, takes place on larger scales in response to forcing by the wind'.

Historical context

Antiquity interpretation

There is another interpretation for this verse which critics argue is the only one to accurately fit this verse on a literal reading, which we will discuss below. This fits a prevalent antiquity (and pre-antiquity) view which was present across the region, and was also held in biblical cosmology and later Christian/Jewish exegesis at the time of Mohammad, that this refers to a somewhat magical cosmic ocean surrounding the Earth.

This likely originates from ancient Mesopotamian myths, such as the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".[13] Wensinck explains,[14] "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative). Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, critics argue that the verse in question is scientifically wrong.

The antiquity view is well summarised in Tommaso Tesei's 2015 article 'Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context', examining the Qur'ans verse on Moses meeting a servant at the meeting of the two seas, which he claims is influenced by a story of Alexander the Great (see Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance), which also features in this Surah. The full article from Tommaso, which is recommended to read to understand the context, can be read in the link on JSTOR for free, which provides a full overview.

The Quran states that Moses is able to reach “the junction of the two seas” (majmaʿ al-baḥrayn), where he meets the Servant of God. It states that he is able to reach it after hearing from his young attendant about the fish that they were carrying with them escaping. This is twice referred to, in vv.61 and 63. In both cases the dynamic is described by exactly the same phrase, with v63 ending in ʿajaban, which is commonly translated as “wondrously” or “in a marvellous way,” and 'saraban', which has caused problems and disagreements among Muslim commentators:

...the root s-r-b is found in three other Quranic passages—sarāb (“mirage”) in 24:39 and 78:20, and sārib (“to go forth or away”) in 13:10—sarab is a Quranic hapax legomenon, that is, it appears only once. One way to understand saraban is to read it as the accusative of sarab, which means “tunnel” or “subterranean excavation.” Then the phrase in v. 61 can be translated as either “and it took its way in the sea by way of a subterranean excavation” or “and it took its way: a subterranean excavation in the sea,” depending on whether saraban is considered an accusative of circumstance (ḥāl) or a second direct object (the irst being sabīlahu) of the verb ittakhadha.
TT

The puzzled commentators have given rise to a number of conflicting interpretations by later Muslims starting from the mid-8th century exegesis, who often came up with miraculous stories to link the fish escaping with a tunnel (a summary is provided in the article). Tommaso states that such attempts to relate the path the fish takes in the sea to passage on land are direct consequences of the apparent discordance between the meaning of the word sarab, “subterranean passage,” and the place where it is said to be found: the sea. It seems the later commentators did not have the full story it arose from. With the story matching a common motif of the water of life surrounding the Earth that could give life to the dead:

..starting with the word saraban which has puzzled commentators + fish regaining life: All we know is that the fish breaks loose near a rock at the junction of the two seas and that this event indicates to Moses that he has reached the goal of his journey. When examined in light of a legend concerning Alexander’s journey to the Land of the Blessed, during which he fails to bathe in the water of life, the episode acquires more sense, however. Specifically, the fish’s escape represents an allusion to the resurrection of a salt fish after Alexander’s cook washes it in the water of life. Muslim exegetes introduced some elements of this legend in their explanation of the narrative told in the Quran. In fact, the fish’s escape episode is usually related to the motif of the water of life. Western scholars, too, almost unanimously consider this story of Alexander to be behind the Quranic account. The motif of the source of life reported in the legend concerning Alexander should certainly be understood in relation to the life-giving characteristics that Near Easterners attributed to the sweet waters of the rivers...
Tommaso Tesei's. 2015. JSTOR. Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context.

This also explains why the fish then takes to the sea in a 'marvellous' way:

When at v. 63 the Quran states that the fish “took its way in the sea in a marvellous way,” it evidently refers to its wondrously being revived upon contact with the miraculous water. In fact, the enigmatic episode acquires sense only if read in light of the dynamic described in the legend of the water of life, and the extreme vagueness with which the Quran describes the episode suggests that its audience was expected to be acquainted with the Alexander tale...
TT

Similar to other religious near-East sources:

..This version of the story of Alexander reflects a simple idea that follows the literal understanding of Gen 2:10–14, namely, that the earthly paradise could be reached by following the course of one of the four rivers. In fact, sources confirm that during late antiquity it was widely held that paradise was a physical place situated on the other side of the ocean encircling the earth. In accordance with this concept, it was generally assumed that the rivers lowing from paradise passed under this ocean to reach the inhabited part of the world. ..

..identification of the water of life with the rivers of paradise, as confirmed by Philostorgius and, more significantly, in the Talmudic version of the Alexander legend, and, on the other hand, the idea that these rivers lowed underground beneath the sea from paradise to the inhabited earth, as several authors report—it seems very likely that saraban in Q 18:63 is meant to describe the subterranean passage under the sea that the fish takes once resurrected by the miraculous water of the paradisiacal rivers...

In Quranic cosmology, this expression is possibly intended to designate a place that has a specific role in the passage of the heavenly waters to earth. In light of the above, one can imagine majmaʿ al-baḥrayn as the place where the heavenly and terrestrial oceans meet, and from where the sweet waters reach the earth, by way of an underground course alluded to by the expression saraban..
TT

The Biblical and Judeo-Christian background literature

The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedents of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature. The bible itself also contains a sea above the Earth:

(Genesis 1:6-10) 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
"Genesis 1:10", https://biblia.com/books/kjv1900/Ge1.6. 

This view has more evidence from Islamic sources.

Islamic Literature - The two seas in the story Moses and Al-Khidr

Quran 18:60 states he won't give up until he reaches the two seas, or has progressed for many 'ages', with the word implying this junction is extremely far from land (many translators such as Yusuf Khan, Shakir and Muhsin Khan translate it as years), taking longer than any journey on our actual oceans would take. For example Christopher Columbus's journeys to America in the 1,400's took around 4 weeks to 6 months depending on the wind and weather.[15] This suggests the author thought it was very far away from the middle-east where Moses is said to have preached.

(Consider) when Moses said to his young companion, "I shall continue travelling until I reach the junction of the two seas or have travelled for many ages".
Quran 18:60

This story continues where Moses goes with a 'servant of God' at the junction of the two seas, who is unnamed in the Qur'an but called 'Al-Khidr' in the Hadith. This man has extremely accurate foreknowledge of both future events and human nature (predestination), so he carries out seemingly strange immoral tasks and tells Moses to be patient and not ask him about them; these are making a hole in a boat to sink it, killing a young child, and fixing a wall for free for a town that refused them hospitality.

However Moses can't help but ask, so after three events Al-Khidr parts ways with him and tells him why he committed the acts; he made a hole in the boat as it was about to be stolen by a king if they departed at that moment, the child was killed as he would become a disbeliever, hurting his devout parents - so God will replace him with a 'purer' one, and the as for fixing the wall, he built it because it is covering a hidden treasure and two orphan boys will find this later.

18:65 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge.

18:66 Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?” 18:67 He said, “Indeed, with me you will never be able to have patience. 18:68 And how can you have patience for what you do not encompass in knowledge?” 18:69 [Moses] said, “You will find me, if Allah wills, patient, and I will not disobey you in [any] order.” 18:70 He said, “Then if you follow me, do not ask me about anything until I make to you about it mention.” 18:71 So they set out, until when they had embarked on the ship, al-Khidr tore it open. [Moses] said, “Have you torn it open to drown its people? You have certainly done a grave thing.” 18:72 [Al-Khidr] said, “Did I not say that with me you would never be able to have patience?” 18:73 [Moses] said, “Do not blame me for what I forgot and do not cover me in my matter with difficulty.” 18:74 So they set out, until when they met a boy, al-Khidr killed him. [Moses] said, “Have you killed a pure soul for other than [having killed] a soul? You have certainly done a deplorable thing.” 18:75 [Al-Khidr] said, “Did I not tell you that with me you would never be able to have patience?” 18:76 [Moses] said, “If I should ask you about anything after this, then do not keep me as a companion. You have obtained from me an excuse.” 18:77 So they set out, until when they came to the people of a town, they asked its people for food, but they refused to offer them hospitality. And they found therein a wall about to collapse, so al-Khidr restored it. [Moses] said, “If you wished, you could have taken for it a payment.” 18:78 [Al-Khidr] said, “This is parting between me and you. I will inform you of the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience. 18:79 As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working at sea. So I intended to cause defect in it as there was after them a king who seized every [good] ship by force. 18:80 And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief. 18:81 So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.

18:82 And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure for them, and their father had been righteous. So your Lord intended that they reach maturity and extract their treasure, as a mercy from your Lord. And I did it not of my own accord. That is the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience."
Quran 18:60-81

This verse is expanded upon in a sahih/authentic hadith: Sahih Bukhari 4:55:613

We can see that the servants knowledge of events to come is so great he is able to teach a prophet as important as Moses, and get annoyed with him and leave him for questioning him. This kind of knowledge is usually only reserved for God, which fits someone coming from a special sea as they are so supernatural. The verses talking about the two seas also usually appear after important creation events: Quran 55:22 is mentioned just after creating humans and jinn, Quran 35:12 following creation of humans from clay, and Quran 27:61 - a verse before mentions creating the heavens and the Earth; suggesting this is an important part of creation, which two specific but essentially random (as are never identified) seas are not.

Islamic Views - Hadith and Qur'an

In the two most authoritative hadith collections, we see in Sahih Bukhari that Muhammad is recorded as saying that when going into the seven heavens on a night journey (see Buraq), the rivers in paradise came to Earth via the Nile and Euphrates. This clearly backs up the idea identified by Tommaso that fresh water comes into Earth via a freshwater cosmic ocean:

...Then I was shown Sidrat-ul-Muntaha (i.e. a tree in the seventh heaven) and I saw its Nabk fruits which resembled the clay jugs of Hajr (i.e. a town in Arabia), and its leaves were like the ears of elephants, and four rivers originated at its root, two of them were apparent and two were hidden. I asked Gabriel about those rivers and he said, 'The two hidden rivers are in Paradise, and the apparent ones are the Nile and the Euphrates.'...
Sahih Bukhari 4:54:429

And this idea is backed up in Sahih Muslim:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Saihan, Jaihan, Euphrates and Nile are all among the rivers of Paradise.
Sahih Muslim 40:6807

From this Quran verse we see the highest heaven has a sea:

It is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days—and His Throne was [then] upon the waters—that He may test you [to see] which of you is best in conduct. Yet if you say, ‘You will indeed be raised up after death,’ the faithless will surely say, ‘This is nothing but plain magic.’
Quran 11:7

As well as a hadith in Sunan Ibn Majah's collection, which although is rated 'Da'if/weak', show's early Muslim understanding of the verses as a sea in the sky, above the seventh heaven:

"I was in Batha with a group of people, among them whom was the Messenger of Allah. A cloud passed over him, and he looked at it and said: 'What do you call this?' They said: 'Sahab (a cloud).' He said: 'And Muzn (rain cloud).' They said: 'And Muzn.' He said: 'And 'Anan (clouds).' Abu Bakr said: "They said: 'And 'Anan.'" He said: 'How much (distance) do you think there is between you and the heavens?' They said: 'We do not know.' He said: 'Between you and it is seventy-one, or seventy-two, or seventy-three years, and there is a similar distance between it and the heaven above it (and so on)' until he counted seven heavens. 'Then above the seventh heaven there is a sea, between whose top and bottom is a distance like that between one heaven and another. Then above that there are eight (angels in the form of) mountain goats. The distance between their hooves and their knees is like the distance between one heaven and the next. Then on their backs is the Throne, and the distance between the top and the bottom of the Throne is like the distance between one heaven and another. Then Allah is above that, the Blessed and Exalted."
Sunan Ibn Majah 1:1:193

Verses talking about the two seas also usually appear after creation events: Quran 55:22 is mentioned just after creating humans and jinn, Quran 35:12 following creation of humans from clay, and Quran 27:61 - a verse before mentions creating the heavens and the Earth.

Islamic Commentaries

Al-Tabari also provided an interpretation on this meaning of this verse to mean a 'sea in the sky and earth that meet every year' (with other views in his tafsir on verse:)

...On the authority of his father, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, in his saying: {The two seas meet.} He said: A sea in the sky and earth that meet every year. Others said: He meant the Persian Sea and the Roman Sea...
"Al-Ṭabarī Tafsir verse 55:19", https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=1&tSoraNo=55&tAyahNo=19&tDisplay=yes&Page=2&Size=1&LanguageId=1. 

Al-Qurtubi, a prominent Sunni Scholar also provides this view says:

Ibn Abbas and Ibn Jubayr said: It refers to the ocean of the sky and the ocean of the earth. Ibn Abbas further explained: They meet each other every year, and between them is a barrier decreed by Allah. "And a barrier between them is forbidden to be crossed." It is forbidden for the salty water to mix with the sweet water or for the sweet water to become salty.
"Tafsir al-Qurtabi 25:53", https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=5&tSoraNo=25&tAyahNo=53&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1. 

This idea of a cosmic ocean also has strong connections to the myth of the Islamic whale (see The Islamic Whale) swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back, a view held by most major traditional Islamic scholars on their Qur'an commentaries such as Al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Al-Razi, Al Qurtubi etc.

Karen C. Pinto, a scholar who wrote a book on medieval Islamic maps, focusing on a distinct tradition of maps known collectively as the Book of Roads and Kingdoms (Kitab al-Masalik wa al-Mamalik, or KMMS)[16], shows this view, known as the encircling ocean (al-Baḥr al-Muḥīṭ) was also part of Islamic folklore and art:

...The crossing of this multivalent encircling sea is dangerous and forbidden to ordinary people because it separates the mundane earth from the heavenly cosmos. Only exceptional humans like Dhū ’l-Qarnayn (Alexander the Great), Khiḍr (the mythical green man), King Solomon and the perfect Sufi who has succeeded in extinguishing his individualistic identity can attempt such a crossing.

It is composed of a series of radical opposites best described as ‘conceptual

malleability’. It is, on the one hand, the finite end of the world, and, on the other, infinite because no one can determine if or where it ends. The sense conveyed in geographical texts is either that it is infinite and connects with the cosmos as part of the seven encircling seas or that it skirts the mountains of Qāf that encircle and stabilize the earth. It is the quintessential transitional body between the mundane world of humans and the cosmos of the divine...
Karen C. Pinto, "In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision", ESPACIO, TIEMPO Y FORMA Serie VII · historia del arte (n. época), 2017, https://scholarworks.boisestate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=history_facpubs. 

An image of this can be seen in her 2017 article In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision on P56 and 57.

Delete

The sea and rivers aren't permanently there, they completely change over time. Even the estuaries didn't exist when the Earth was made, so God letting the two bodies going free and a permanent barrier is false. Partition forbidden to pass - uses term for never - however entre sealine changes over time with rivers broken down and destroyed - and current 'seas' 'barrier' breaks down over time

Salt vs seawater - is estuary water sweet and palatable or filled with dirt?

Similarly Ibn Kathir

later commentaries after the flat earth model was rejected by astronomers state this barrier refers to land

(And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter;) means, He has created the two kinds of water, sweet and salty. The sweet water is like that in rivers, springs and wells, which is fresh, sweet, palatable water. This was the view of Ibn Jurayj and of Ibn Jarir, and this is the meaning without a doubt, for nowhere in creation is there a sea which is fresh and sweet. Allah has told us about reality so that His servants may realize His blessings to them and give thanks to Him. The sweet water is that which flows amidst people. Allah has portioned it out among His creatures according to their needs; rivers and springs in every land, according to what they need for themselves and their lands.... ..(a barrier) means a partition, which is dry land.

This is obviously incorrect as coral doesn't form in fresh water, let alone springs. And the rivers are especially not connected - so is not a barrier between two seas?

large lakes referred to as seas, there is not a barrier between them. There are many lakes, springs and lagoons all over the world, they are not one body of water as the quran claims.

(https://islamqa.info/en/answers/165094/tafseer-of-the-verse-he-has-let-loose-the-two-seas-the-salt-water-and-the-sweet-meeting-together-between-them-is-a-barrier-which-none-of-them-can-transgress-ar-rahmaan-5519-20)

External links

References

  1. ↑ Tesei, Tommaso. Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. Journal of the American Oriental Society, vol. 135, no. 1, American Oriental Society, 2015, pp. 19–32, https://doi.org/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19. https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19
  2. ↑ Tasfir Ibn Kathir on verses 25:51-54
  3. ↑ Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on verse 25:53
  4. ↑ Corals and Coral Reefs - Smithsonian Institution website
  5. ↑ Meteorology. Aristotle. ~350BC
  6. ↑ Ancient mariners may have set sail 130,000 years ago. ARCHAEOLOGY. The Times. Norman Hammond. 2016. Boston University Archive
  7. ↑ About Estuary Database. Sea Around Us. Jacqueline Alder. Citing: Alder J (2003) Putting the Coast in the Sea Around Us Project. The Sea Around Us Newsletter No. 15:1-2.
  8. ↑ What is an Estuary? National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
  9. ↑ Joseph L. Reid, On the temperature, salinity, and density differences between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in the upper kilometre, Deep Sea Research (1953), Volume 7, Issue 4, 1961, Pages 265-275, ISSN 0146-6313, https://doi.org/10.1016/0146-6313(61)90044-2
  10. ↑ Sill. Geology. Science & Tech. Britannica Entry.
  11. ↑ Halocline. Oceanography. Science & Tech. Britannia Entry.
  12. ↑ Ocean Mixing. Water Encyclopaedia. Piers Chapman.
  13. ↑ Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14
  14. ↑ Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17
  15. ↑ How transatlantic history shaped the world as we know it. Royalcaribbean.com. Uploaded by Chantae Reden. 2022. Written by Claire Heginbotham.
  16. ↑ Medieval Islamic Maps: An Exploration. Karen C. Pinto. Edition, illustrated. Publisher, University of Chicago Press, 2016. ISBN, 022612696X, 9780226126968
Retrieved from "http://wikiislamica.net/index.php?title=User:CPO675/Sandbox_1&oldid=137753"