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A barrier between two seas and the cosmic oceans

Main page image to upload (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tSZVB0TTdpOtG0Y5sUbrCrsBiiHFZ-Io/view?usp=sharing). Rights brought from iStock to use on website.https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/estuary-difference-between-fresh-water-and-sea-water-from-above-gm1462114312-495765419?phrase=estuary+freshwater+saltwater&searchscope=image%2Cfilm

Introduction

The Quran refers to two different bodies of water, emphasising there is one sweet and one fresh, and that they meet but there is a barrier between them. Both early and medieval Muslims, and modern Academic scholarship, have identified this with an ancient belief of there being a cosmic ocean of water surrounding the world.[1] Other classical scholars have attributed it to the way fresh water bodies of water are separate to the salty seas and oceans in general, rather than two specific bodies of water, not taking the verse literally.[2][3]

Some modern Muslims have tried to reconcile the relevant verses with natural phenomena, including estuaries meeting the sea, and different seas having different salt levels. However critics do not believe the verses accurately describe this, and actually conflicts with the description as will be stated in the article. When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them.

The Qur'an

There is a consistent theme of 'the two seas' ("al-baḥrayni, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), with the exact term being used 5 times in the Quran.

We are told that there are two seas ("al-baḥrayni, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will never be passed.

It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

Q55:22 quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching.[4]

He released the two seas, meeting [side by side]; Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses. So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? From both of them emerge pearl and coral.

And again in Q35:12 we are told the two seas with one being freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter). But from both come fresh meat (presumably fish) and ornaments to wear come from both (presumably coral and pearl as mentioned above in verse Q 55:22).

And the two seas are not alike: this, fresh, sweet, good to drink, this (other) bitter, salt. And from them both ye eat fresh meat and derive the ornament that ye wear. And thou seest the ship cleaving them with its prow that ye may seek of His bounty, and that haply ye may give thanks.

Again, there is a barrier between the two seas.

Is He [not best] who made the earth a stable ground and placed within it rivers and made for it firmly set mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier? Is there a deity with Allah? [No], but most of them do not know.

Another reference to "the two seas" is found in the story of Moses and his servant, where he meets a man (Al-Khidr) who has special knowledge of events that have not yet happened from god, and tests Moses to carry out seemingly immoral tasks without asking him why:

And [mention] when Moses said to his servant, "I will not cease [traveling] until I reach the junction of the two seas or continue for a long period." But when they reached the junction between them, they forgot their fish, and it took its course into the sea, slipping away.

The full story of Moses ad Al-Khidr can be found lower in the page for context.

Apologists claims

Estuaries and salt water

Apologists claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them, and even that the descriptions show advanced knowledge of science that could not have been known to a person from the 7th century. You can see the images referenced in this link which are repeated on many Islamic websites.

The first claim is around fresh water from rivers meeting seas/oceans of salt water, with the transition stage known as estuaries:

Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water. (see Figure 4)

Figure 4: Longitudinal section showing salinity (parts per thousand ‰) in an estuary. We can see here the partition (zone of separation) between the fresh and the salt water. (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, p. 301, with a slight enhancement.)

This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation).

Note that in the above referenced claim in the book (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman), they have added the words “Zone of Separation” and “The partition" onto Figure 4 (saying “with slight enhancement”), which the book itself does not have - clearly to link the word 'partition' (as translated into English by several official translators of the Quran) with the scientific book.

Issues with this interpretation

Problems with miracle claim

Critics point to issue's with inserting this is a scientific miracle (and even scientifically accurate):

  1. Firstly as with all claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clearly described a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into several typical categories used for these claims such as selective literalism, de-historicization and pseudo-corelation (see Scientific Miracles in the Quran), taking advantage of ambiguity in language to fit a modern reading..
  2. The idea of the density of salt water being more than freshwater, separating the two was already known at least by the time of Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC); “The drinkable, sweet water, l of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.”[5]
  3. This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sailing nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as humans have sailed since ancient times,[6] and the colours are often different (as seen in the image on this page), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier placed by God between the two waters.
  4. This description also seems to imply there is no mixing between them at all, and could just as easily be written by someone believing that someone incorrectly believing this.

A deeper analysis can be found on the now defunct and archived former (more polemical) Wikiislam website' page on scientific miracles Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran.

Problems with general accuracy

We are told that there are specifically the two seas (al-baḥrayni).

  • This uses the definite particle 'al' for 'the' for a specific two seas, not general.
  • 'baḥr' بحر for large body of water/sea.
  • the dual suffix/ending in 'ayni' -ين means there are two of them, as apposed to singular or plural (3 or more in Arabic).
  1. Yet this happens in many places (there are over 1,200 documented estuaries,[7] i.e. more than two) across the world - nowhere does the language suggest this is the case, as to match this Qur'an verse it must be referring to a single specific but unnamed estuary. There are many far better ways to phrase this if it meant this natural and general phenomena.
  2. There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. Salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them here and on CostalWiki for accessible science for the general reader), however despite what it may look like on the surface they all mix to varying degrees - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they are forbidden to pass.
  3. It does not use the word specifically for river (نھر "Nahar" - a word also used elsewhere in the Qur'an to describe a river) and sea, which would have been an accurate way to describe it.
  4. If the mixing zones isn't part of either 'sea' being mentioned but a 'barrier', then there are arguably 3 bodies of water in this, and the language could reflect the mixing zone by stating that one of them is made of both sweet and salty water (brackish water[8]). This also would separate it from the other specific seas being referred to as we will discuss in the next section.

Two actual seas

Secondly, it states the verses not specifically mentioning sweet and salty waters are referring to different seas with different kinds of waters (again click the link to see the images):

Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density. For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water. When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometres into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics. The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth (see figure 13).


Figure 13 (Click here to enlarge)

Figure 13: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)
Problems with miracle claim and general science
  • Firstly, it is a leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two 'seas' mentioned in Quran 55:19-20 from the others, as they all use the same phrase to refer to a specific two seas it is implied the audience is already familiar with.
  • Quran 35:12 states ornaments for us to wear are from both seas, salty and sweet linking the coral and pearl this to the sweet and salty seas as repeated in verse 55:22.
  • Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them implies this is for two specific seas, while this phenomena occurs in many places, even the North Atlantic, South Atlantic the Pacific Oceans have different salt levels.[9] And there are more examples of aquatic sills[10], with some notable examples given here - which does not match a single specific case as the definite article used in the Quran suggests. For vertically mixed zones where salinity changes rapidly, a pycnocline zone, and more specifically, a halocline zone[11], is always a mixture of fresh water and salt water - in fact it is a product of their mixing.
  • For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing, this is not true, as Piers Chapman of Texas A&M University writes on Waterencyclopedia[12]: 'Mixing in the ocean occurs on several scales.. The best-known example of this process, known as salt fingering, occurs where very salty water from the Mediterranean outflow mixes into the North Atlantic... Most mixing, however, takes place on larger scales in response to forcing by the wind'.

Historical context

Antiquity interpretation

There is another interpretation for this verse which critics argue is the only one to accurately fit this verse on a literal reading, which is discussed below. This fits a prevalent antiquity (and pre-antiquity) view that was present across the region, and also held in biblical cosmology and later Christian/Jewish exegesis at the time of Mohammad, that this refers to a somewhat magical cosmic ocean surrounding the Earth.

This likely originates from ancient Mesopotamian myths, such as the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".[13] Wensinck explains,[14] "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites".

Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative). Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, critics argue that the verse in question is scientifically wrong.

The antiquity view is well summarised in Tommaso Tesei's 2015 article 'Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context', examining the Qur'ans verse on Moses meeting a servant at the meeting of the two seas, which he claims is influenced by a story of Alexander the Great (see Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance), which also features in this Surah. The main discussion is on verses:

18:60 (Consider) when Moses said to his young companion, "I shall continue travelling until I reach the junction of the two seas or have travelled for many ages". 18:61 But when they reached the Junction, they forgot (about) their Fish, which took its course through the sea (straight) as in a tunnel. 18:62 When they had passed on (some distance), Moses said to his attendant: "Bring us our early meal; truly we have suffered much fatigue at this (stage of) our journey." 18:63 He replied: "Sawest thou (what happened) when we betook ourselves to the rock? I did indeed forget (about) the Fish: none but Satan made me forget to tell (you) about it: it took its course through the sea in a marvellous way!" 18:64 Moses said: "That was what we were seeking after:" So they went back on their footsteps, following (the path they had come). 18:65 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge.

The full article from Tommaso, which is recommended to read to understand the context, can be read in the link on JSTOR for free by making an account, which provides a full overview.

The Quran states that Moses is able to reach “the junction of the two seas” (majmaʿ al-baḥrayni), where he meets a Servant of God. It states that he is able to reach it after hearing from his young attendant about the fish that they were carrying with them (for food) escaping. This is twice referred to, in Q18:61 and v63. In both cases the dynamic is described by exactly the same phrase, with v63 ending in ʿajaban, which is commonly translated as “wondrously” or “in a marvellous way,” and 'saraban', which has caused problems and disagreements among Muslim commentators:

...the root s-r-b is found in three other Quranic passages—sarāb (“mirage”) in 24:39 and 78:20, and sārib (“to go forth or away”) in 13:10—sarab is a Quranic hapax legomenon, that is, it appears only once. One way to understand saraban is to read it as the accusative of sarab, which means “tunnel” or “subterranean excavation.” Then the phrase in v. 61 can be translated as either “and it took its way in the sea by way of a subterranean excavation” or “and it took its way: a subterranean excavation in the sea,” depending on whether saraban is considered an accusative of circumstance (ḥāl) or a second direct object (the irst being sabīlahu) of the verb ittakhadha.

The puzzled commentators have given rise to a number of conflicting interpretations by later Muslims[15] starting from the mid-8th century exegesis, who often came up with miraculous/magical stories to link the dead fish escaping with a tunnel (a summary is provided in the article). Tommaso states that such attempts to relate the path the fish takes in the sea to passage on land are direct consequences of the apparent discordance between the meaning of the word sarab, “subterranean passage,” and the place where it is said to be found: the sea. It seems the later commentators did not have the full story it arose from. With the story matching a common motif of the water of life surrounding the Earth that could give life to the dead:

..starting with the word saraban which has puzzled commentators + fish regaining life: All we know is that the fish breaks loose near a rock at the junction of the two seas and that this event indicates to Moses that he has reached the goal of his journey. When examined in light of a legend concerning Alexander’s journey to the Land of the Blessed, during which he fails to bathe in the water of life, the episode acquires more sense, however. Specifically, the fish’s escape represents an allusion to the resurrection of a salt fish after Alexander’s cook washes it in the water of life. Muslim exegetes introduced some elements of this legend in their explanation of the narrative told in the Quran. In fact, the fish’s escape episode is usually related to the motif of the water of life. Western scholars, too, almost unanimously consider this story of Alexander to be behind the Quranic account. The motif of the source of life reported in the legend concerning Alexander should certainly be understood in relation to the life-giving characteristics that Near Easterners attributed to the sweet waters of the rivers...

Islamic scholar Gabriel Said Reynolds also notes this 'junction between two seas' (and other verses mentioning the two seas) as likely meaning the waters of the heaven. He also provides a translation of the relevant sections from the Alexander Song in his 2018 book "The Quran and Bible: Text and Commentary",[16] which seems to have influenced the story (again see Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance):

The Macedonian king, the son of Philip spoke: / “I have determined to follow a great quest to reach the lands, / even the furthest lands, / to reach the seas, and the coasts, and the borders as they are; / Above all to enter and to see the land of darkness / if it is truly as I heard it is.”

(Song of Alexander, recension 1, p. 26, ll. 33–38)

Then [Alexander’s cook] came to the spring, which contained the lifegiving water / he came close to it, in order to wash the fish in water, but it came alive and escaped; The poor man was afraid that the king would blame him / that he give back the [value of the] fish, which had come to life and which he did not stop. So he got down into the water, in order to catch it, but was unable / then he climbed out from there in order to tell the king that he had found [the spring] He called, but no one heard him, and so he went to a mountain from where they heard him / the king was glad when he heard about the spring. The king turned around in order to bathe [in the spring] as he had sought to do / and they went from the mountain in the middle of darkness, but they could not reach it.

(Song of Alexander, recension 1, pp. 48–50, ll. 182–92)
Gabriel Said Reynolds, "The Quran and Bible:Text and Commentary", New Haven: Yale University Press, 2018 pp. 464-465

This also explains why the fish (which was their food, i.e. dead) then comes back to life and takes to the sea in a 'marvellous' way (it is worth pointing out the obvious that there is no sea on Earth that can revive dead animals):

When at v. 63 the Quran states that the fish “took its way in the sea in a marvellous way,” it evidently refers to its wondrously being revived upon contact with the miraculous water. In fact, the enigmatic episode acquires sense only if read in light of the dynamic described in the legend of the water of life, and the extreme vagueness with which the Quran describes the episode suggests that its audience was expected to be acquainted with the Alexander tale...

Similar to other religious near-East sources:

..This version of the story of Alexander reflects a simple idea that follows the literal understanding of Gen 2:10–14, namely, that the earthly paradise could be reached by following the course of one of the four rivers. In fact, sources confirm that during late antiquity it was widely held that paradise was a physical place situated on the other side of the ocean encircling the earth. In accordance with this concept, it was generally assumed that the rivers lowing from paradise passed under this ocean to reach the inhabited part of the world. ..

..identification of the water of life with the rivers of paradise, as confirmed by Philostorgius and, more significantly, in the Talmudic version of the Alexander legend, and, on the other hand, the idea that these rivers lowed underground beneath the sea from paradise to the inhabited earth, as several authors report—it seems very likely that saraban in Q 18:63 is meant to describe the subterranean passage under the sea that the fish takes once resurrected by the miraculous water of the paradisiacal rivers...

In Quranic cosmology, this expression is possibly intended to designate a place that has a specific role in the passage of the heavenly waters to earth. In light of the above, one can imagine majmaʿ al-baḥrayn as the place where the heavenly and terrestrial oceans meet, and from where the sweet waters reach the earth, by way of an underground course alluded to by the expression saraban..

The Biblical and Judeo-Christian background literature

The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedents of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature. The bible itself also contains a sea above the Earth:

(Genesis 1:6-10) 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

Islamic Scholar Angelika Neuwirth notes in her commentary on verses 55:19-22, that the text, along with many other verses, contains calls to the Palms:

V. 19–22 maraja l-baḥrayni yaltaqiyān / baynahumā barzakhun lā yabghiyān / fa-bi-ayyi ālāʾi rabbikumā tukadhdhibān / yakhruju minhumā l-luʾluʾu wa-marjān] The myth of the division of the waters, to which verses 19–20 allude, is unfolded in detail in Psalms 104:5–9: yasad ereṣ ʿal mekhoneha, bal timmoṭ ʿolam wa- ʿed / tehom ka-levush kissito, ʿal harim ya ʿamdu mayim / min ga ʿaratkha yenussun, min qol raʿamkha yeḥafezun / ya ʿalu harim yeredu veqaʿot, el me-qom zeh yassadta lahem / gevul samta bal ya ʿavorun, bal yeshuvun le-khassot ha-areṣ (“He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved // You covered it with the watery depths as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains. / But at Your rebuke the waters fled / at the sound of Your thunder they took to flight; // they flowed over the mountains, they went down into the valleys, to the place you assigned for them. // You set a boundary they cannot cross; never again will they cover the earth.”). On the entire thematics of the sea in v. 19–24, see Barthod (1929) and Zaki (2001). In regard to the rhetorical form of v. 22, it is striking that again a pair of products of the sea—here with contrasting colors—is named. V. 24 wa-lahu l-jawāri l-munshaʾātu fī l-baḥri ka-l-aʿlām] The perception of the astonishing majesty of the sea (as in Q 55:19–22) transitions also in the Psalm into wonder at the phenomenon of sea travel, see Psalms 104:25–26: zeh ha-yam godol u-reḥav yadayim, sham remesh we-en mispar ḥayyot qeṭannot ʿim gedolot / sham oniyot yehallekhun (“There is the sea, vast and spacious, teeming with creatures beyond number, living things both large and small. / There the ships go to and fro”).
Neuwirth, Angelika. The Qur'an: Text and Commentary, Volume 1: Early Meccan Suras: Poetic Prophecy (p. 371). Yale University Press.

Pre-Islamic poetry

The fact that the Qur'an addresses it's audience with the claim of the two (specific not general) seas, without giving more explanation or context about what they are or where, also suggests the initial audience were acquainted with it's meaning. We can see these views were also prevalent in Arabia at the time of Mohammad's preaching as this poem from a contemporary of Muhammad mentions the Earth being settled on the waters:

daḥāhā falammā raʾādā istawat ʿalā l-māʾi arsā ʿalayhā l-jibālā / He spread it out and when He saw that it was settled upon the waters, He fixed the mountains upon it
Poem attributed to Zayd b. 'Amr, as found for example in Ibn Al Jawzi's Al Muntazam,[17] and Ibn Ishaq's biography of Muhammad (as translated from Ibn Ishaq by Guillaume[18] and transliterated by Bravmann[19])

Post-Islamic Poetry

We further see the cosmic ocean continue to appear in poetry from respected Muslim poets, such as by Dhu'l-Nun Al-Misri (d. 859), who was born in Akhmim, upper Egypt and was an Egyptian Sufi Master. He was considered the Patron Saint of the Physicians in the early Islamic era of Egypt and is credited with having introduced the concept of Gnosis into Islam.[20] In his Qasida 'Hymn of Creation', we find:

He created the vault of the heavens, their hosts in forms celestial, moving through ethereal oceans, the paths of the Zodiac following.
(Translation by Paul Smith in) Anthology of Classical Arabic Poetry (From Pre-Islamic Times to Ibn ‘Arabi). New Humanity Books. Kindle Edition. Locations 4668 - 4680

This view has more evidence from Islamic sources.

Islamic Literature - The two seas in the story Moses and Al-Khidr

In Quran 18:60 Moses states that he won't give up until he reaches the two seas, or has progressed for many 'ages' (in Arabic huquban حُقُبًا) , with the word implying this junction is extremely far from land (many translators such as Yusuf Khan, Shakir and Muhsin Khan translate it as 'years'), taking longer than any journey on our actual oceans would take. For example Christopher Columbus's journeys to America in the 1,400's took around 4 weeks to 6 months depending on the wind and weather.[21] This suggests the author thought it was very far away from the Middle East where Moses is said to have preached.

This story continues where Moses goes with a 'servant of God' at the junction of the two seas, who is unnamed in the Qur'an but called 'Al-Khidr' in the Hadith. This man has extremely accurate foreknowledge of both future events and human nature (predestination), so he carries out seemingly strange immoral tasks and tells Moses to be patient and not ask him about them; these are making a hole in a boat to sink it, killing a young child, and fixing a wall for free for a town that refused them hospitality.

However Moses cannot help but ask why they are doing them, so after three events Al-Khidr parts ways with him and tells him why he committed the acts; he made a hole in the boat as it was about to be stolen by a king if they departed at that moment, the child was killed as he would become a disbeliever, hurting his devout parents - so God will replace him with a 'purer' one, and the as for fixing the wall, he built it because it is covering a hidden treasure and two orphan boys will find this later.

18:66 Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?”

18:67 He said, “Indeed, with me you will never be able to have patience. 18:68 And how can you have patience for what you do not encompass in knowledge?” 18:69 [Moses] said, “You will find me, if Allah wills, patient, and I will not disobey you in [any] order.” 18:70 He said, “Then if you follow me, do not ask me about anything until I make to you about it mention.” 18:71 So they set out, until when they had embarked on the ship, al-Khidr tore it open. [Moses] said, “Have you torn it open to drown its people? You have certainly done a grave thing.” 18:72 [Al-Khidr] said, “Did I not say that with me you would never be able to have patience?” 18:73 [Moses] said, “Do not blame me for what I forgot and do not cover me in my matter with difficulty.” 18:74 So they set out, until when they met a boy, al-Khidr killed him. [Moses] said, “Have you killed a pure soul for other than [having killed] a soul? You have certainly done a deplorable thing.” 18:75 [Al-Khidr] said, “Did I not tell you that with me you would never be able to have patience?” 18:76 [Moses] said, “If I should ask you about anything after this, then do not keep me as a companion. You have obtained from me an excuse.” 18:77 So they set out, until when they came to the people of a town, they asked its people for food, but they refused to offer them hospitality. And they found therein a wall about to collapse, so al-Khidr restored it. [Moses] said, “If you wished, you could have taken for it a payment.” 18:78 [Al-Khidr] said, “This is parting between me and you. I will inform you of the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience. 18:79 As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working at sea. So I intended to cause defect in it as there was after them a king who seized every [good] ship by force. 18:80 And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief. 18:81 So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.

18:82 And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure for them, and their father had been righteous. So your Lord intended that they reach maturity and extract their treasure, as a mercy from your Lord. And I did it not of my own accord. That is the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience."

This verse is expanded upon in a sahih/authentic hadith: Sahih Bukhari 4:55:613

We can see that the servants knowledge of events to come is so great he is able to teach a prophet as important as Moses, and even become annoyed with him and leave him for questioning him. This kind of knowledge is usually only reserved for God, which although not a direct piece of evidence, fits someone coming from a special sea in the sense they are so supernatural and unlike any other character in the Quran. The verses talking about the two seas also usually appear after important creation events: Quran 55:22 is mentioned just after creating humans and jinn, Quran 35:12 following creation of humans from clay, and Quran 27:61 - a verse before mentions creating the heavens and the Earth; suggesting this is an important part of creation, which two specific but essentially random (as are never identified) seas are not as fitting.

Islamic Views - Hadith and Qur'an

In the two most authoritative hadith collections, we see in Sahih Bukhari that Muhammad is recorded as saying that when going into the seven heavens on a night journey (see Buraq), the rivers in paradise came to Earth via the Nile and Euphrates. This clearly backs up the idea identified by Tommaso that fresh water comes into Earth via a freshwater cosmic ocean:

...Then I was shown Sidrat-ul-Muntaha (i.e. a tree in the seventh heaven) and I saw its Nabk fruits which resembled the clay jugs of Hajr (i.e. a town in Arabia), and its leaves were like the ears of elephants, and four rivers originated at its root, two of them were apparent and two were hidden. I asked Gabriel about those rivers and he said, 'The two hidden rivers are in Paradise, and the apparent ones are the Nile and the Euphrates.'...

And this idea is backed up in Sahih Muslim:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Saihan, Jaihan, Euphrates and Nile are all among the rivers of Paradise.

From this Quran verse we see the God's throne was on 'the waters' during creation:

It is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days—and His Throne was [then] upon the waters—that He may test you [to see] which of you is best in conduct. Yet if you say, ‘You will indeed be raised up after death,’ the faithless will surely say, ‘This is nothing but plain magic.’

Which were there before the universe was created (this hadith is rated Hasan/Good by Darussalam):

Narrated Waki' bin Hudus: from his uncle Abu Razin who said: "I said: 'O Messenger of Allah! Where was our Lord before He created His creation?' He said: 'He was (above) the clouds - no air was under him, no air was above him, and He created His Throne upon the water.'"

As well as a hadith in Sunan Ibn Majah's collection, which although is rated 'Da'if/weak' (so unlikely to have come directly from Muhammad), show's early Muslim understanding of the verses as a cosmic sea in the sky, above the seventh heaven:

"I was in Batha with a group of people, among them whom was the Messenger of Allah. A cloud passed over him, and he looked at it and said: 'What do you call this?' They said: 'Sahab (a cloud).' He said: 'And Muzn (rain cloud).' They said: 'And Muzn.' He said: 'And 'Anan (clouds).' Abu Bakr said: "They said: 'And 'Anan.'" He said: 'How much (distance) do you think there is between you and the heavens?' They said: 'We do not know.' He said: 'Between you and it is seventy-one, or seventy-two, or seventy-three years, and there is a similar distance between it and the heaven above it (and so on)' until he counted seven heavens. 'Then above the seventh heaven there is a sea, between whose top and bottom is a distance like that between one heaven and another. Then above that there are eight (angels in the form of) mountain goats..."

Islamic Commentaries

Al-Tabari also provided an interpretation on this meaning of this verse to mean a 'sea in the sky and earth that meet every year' (with other views in his tafsir on verse:)

...On the authority of his father, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, in his saying: {The two seas meet.} He said: A sea in the sky and earth that meet every year. Others said: He meant the Persian Sea and the Roman Sea...

And speaks of a cosmic waters that surround the Earth and heavens elsewhere.

According to Muhammad b. Sahl b. 'Askar-Isma'il b. 'Abd al-Karim-Wahb, mentioning some of his majesty (as being described as follows): The heavens and the earth and the oceans are in the haykal, and the haykal is in the Footstool. God's feet are upon the Footstool. He carries the Footstool. It became like a sandal on His feet. When Wahb was asked: What is the haykal? He replied: Something on the heavens' extremities that surrounds the earth and the oceans like ropes that are used to fasten a tent. And when Wahb was asked how earths are (constituted), he replied: They are seven earths that are flat and islands. Between each two earths, there is an ocean. All that is surrounded by the (surrounding) ocean, and the haykal is behind the ocean.
Al-Tabari, Vol. 1, pp. 207-208

Angelika Neuwirth notes that's Tabari's is the interpretation in accordance with the Qur'anic evidence, while other later interpretations (e.g. of different actual seas and metaphorical seas of fresh and salty water discussed below) were created to fit new Greek science.[22]

‘The cryptic qur’anic statement about the two oceans has engendered diverse interpretations, mostly attempts to vindicate the geocentric Aristotelean-Ptolemaic world view. Only al-Tabari (d. 310/923) presents an interpretation in accordance with the qur'anic evidence, the image of a world swimming in an ocean and being covered by another ocean above the highest heaven. Al-Tabart (Ta/si, xxvii, 75, ad Q 55:19) states that the two oceans are located above the earth and around it respectively, the upper waters being fresh and sweet (‘adhbun furatun), the lower salty and bitter (milhun waqun).
Cosmology Entry. Space in cosmological context. Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an. pp. 445-446. Angelika Neuwirth. 2001.

Al-Qurtubi, another prominent Sunni Scholar also provides this 'sky and Earth sea meeting' view:

Ibn Abbas and Ibn Jubayr said: It refers to the ocean of the sky and the ocean of the earth. Ibn Abbas further explained: They meet each other every year, and between them is a barrier decreed by Allah. "And a barrier between them is forbidden to be crossed." It is forbidden for the salty water to mix with the sweet water or for the sweet water to become salty.

Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs and Tafsir Ibn Al Kathir commentary on verse 18:60, while not stating this comes from a cosmic ocean (but rather a nearby spring), also relate this story to a rock which contains the fountain of life reviving a dead fish, which pulls motifs from the near-East view of a magical cosmic waters with life giving qualities. (Once again it is worth pointing out the obvious that there is no magic fountain or rock on Earth that can revive dead animals).

It is also very difficult to imagine how one would know they had reached a junction of two seas, if this was referring to man-made sea boundaries as (such as the Persian and Roman seas) which many later commentaries guess at. However they would be more likely to know by reaching a magical barrier between the Earthly sea and cosmic ocean.

This idea of a cosmic ocean also has strong connections to the myth of the Islamic whale (see The Islamic Whale) swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back, a view held by most major traditional Islamic scholars on their Qur'an commentaries such as Al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Al-Razi, Al Qurtubi etc.

Separately, in the story of Gog and Magog, also linked to Dhul-Qarnayn/Alexander the Great and this tale, some Shi'i traditions locate the barrier (of Gog and Magog) either behind the Mediterranean, between the two mountains found there, whose rear part is the encircling sea/ocean of the world (Bahr al-muhit).[23]

As mentioned in the introductory paragraph, there are many classical scholars who have attributed the 'two seas' verses other than Moses reaching them (in Q18:60-65) as non-literal, in the sense that it is referring to the way that fresh water bodies of water are separate to the salty seas and oceans in general,[24]usually by land.[25] However once again it should be noted that it is not supported by the actual language of the Quran which designates the verse to be talking about two specific large bodies of water, rather than the many, many separate but unconnected bodies of fresh water across Earth. This view for example by Ibn Kathir seems supported by the fact that no-where on Earth has a sea with fresh water rather than a linguistic analysis (let alone there is no-where on Earth a freshwater sea touches a saltwater sea without merging).

(And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter;) means, He has created the two kinds of water, sweet and salty. The sweet water is like that in rivers, springs and wells, which is fresh, sweet, palatable water. This was the view of Ibn Jurayj and of Ibn Jarir, and this is the meaning without a doubt, for nowhere in creation is there a sea which is fresh and sweet.

Folklore and maps

Karen C. Pinto, a scholar who wrote a book on medieval Islamic maps, focusing on a distinct tradition of maps known collectively as the Book of Roads and Kingdoms (Kitab al-Masalik wa al-Mamalik, or KMMS)[26], shows this view, known as the encircling ocean (al-Baḥr al-Muḥīṭ), was also part of Islamic folklore and art:

...The crossing of this multivalent encircling sea is dangerous and forbidden to ordinary people because it separates the mundane earth from the heavenly cosmos. Only exceptional humans like Dhū ’l-Qarnayn (Alexander the Great), Khiḍr (the mythical green man), King Solomon and the perfect Sufi who has succeeded in extinguishing his individualistic identity can attempt such a crossing.

It is composed of a series of radical opposites best described as ‘conceptual

malleability’. It is, on the one hand, the finite end of the world, and, on the other, infinite because no one can determine if or where it ends. The sense conveyed in geographical texts is either that it is infinite and connects with the cosmos as part of the seven encircling seas or that it skirts the mountains of Qāf that encircle and stabilize the earth. It is the quintessential transitional body between the mundane world of humans and the cosmos of the divine...

Images of this can be seen for free in her 2017 article In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision on P56 and P57.

External links

References

  1. Tesei, Tommaso. Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. Journal of the American Oriental Society, vol. 135, no. 1, American Oriental Society, 2015, pp. 19–32, https://doi.org/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19. https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19
  2. Tasfir Ibn Kathir on verses 25:51-54
  3. Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on verse 25:53
  4. Corals and Coral Reefs - Smithsonian Institution website
  5. Meteorology. Aristotle. ~350BC
  6. Ancient mariners may have set sail 130,000 years ago. ARCHAEOLOGY. The Times. Norman Hammond. 2016. Boston University Archive
  7. About Estuary Database. Sea Around Us. Jacqueline Alder. Citing: Alder J (2003) Putting the Coast in the Sea Around Us Project. The Sea Around Us Newsletter No. 15:1-2.
  8. What is an Estuary? National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
  9. Joseph L. Reid, On the temperature, salinity, and density differences between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in the upper kilometre, Deep Sea Research (1953), Volume 7, Issue 4, 1961, Pages 265-275, ISSN 0146-6313, https://doi.org/10.1016/0146-6313(61)90044-2
  10. Sill. Geology. Science & Tech. Britannica Entry.
  11. Halocline. Oceanography. Science & Tech. Britannia Entry.
  12. Ocean Mixing. Water Encyclopaedia. Piers Chapman.
  13. Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14
  14. Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17
  15. Tafsir ibn Kathir Verse 18:60-65. Ibn Kathir c. 1300 – 1373.
  16. The Quran and Bible:Text and Commentary, New Haven: Yale University Press, 2018. Gabriel Said Reynolds.
  17. https://shamela.ws/book/12406/736
  18. https://www.justislam.co.uk/images/Ibn%20Ishaq%20-%20Sirat%20Rasul%20Allah.pdf
  19. Bravmann, M. M. (1977) Studies in Semitic Philology, Leiden: Brill p.439
  20. Smith, Paul. ANTHOLOGY OF CLASSICAL ARABIC POETRY (From Pre-Islamic Times to Ibn ‘Arabi). New Humanity Books. 2012. Kindle Location 4573.
  21. How transatlantic history shaped the world as we know it. Royalcaribbean.com. Uploaded by Chantae Reden. 2022. Written by Claire Heginbotham.
  22. Cosmology Entry. Space in cosmological context. Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an. pp. 445-446. Angelika Neuwirth. 2001. Read online for free here: Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an ( 6 Volumes). Page 15/325 / 482 of 3956 of PDF
  23. van Donzel, Emeri; Schmidt, Andrea. Gog and Magog in Early Eastern Christian and Islamic Sources: Sallam's Quest for Alexander's Wall. Leiden: Brill. pp. 81. ISBN 9789004174160, 2010. The full book can be read on the Internet Archive linked here.
  24. Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Verse 25:51.
  25. Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on verse 25:53
  26. Medieval Islamic Maps: An Exploration. Karen C. Pinto. Edition, illustrated. Publisher, University of Chicago Press, 2016. ISBN, 022612696X, 9780226126968

Historical Jesus Practice

Like many biblical characters, the Qur'an contains verses relating to the Christian Jesus (named Isa), whom it affirms was really a prophet of Allah and 'the messiah'; though it is unclear what this means exactly, with many different Islam interpretations. [1] (see Isa page for a theological discussion). Unlike in the bible, the Qur'an states he is just a human and not the son of God {{Quran|4|171}} (e.g. {{Quran|17|111}} {{Quran|2|116}}),

He is said to have preached 'the gospel/Injeel', similarly to how Moses was given the Torah ({{Quran|5|46}} and Muhammad the Qur'an. This has lead to the dominant Islamic position is that the New Testament we have (which contains 4 'gospels') is a corrupted/changed document that does not match his original teachings.[2] Therefore Muslims disregard the Christian Jesus as essentially an altered version of the real one, who allegedly was not actually crucified {{Quran|4|157}}[14] nor ever claimed to be the son of God (e.g. {{Quran|17|111}} {{Quran|2|116}}), which ~600 years later was clarified

However while Muslims may reject the biblical Jesus on theological/faith-based grounds alone, there has been much secular scholarship for more than 200 years seeking to reconstruct the real historical Jesus (independently from Islamic studies) from historical-critical methods rather than Christian theological/faith-based one's, whose results conflict with the Qur'anic one in key ways.


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The Qur'an includes references to Jesus (referred to as Isa in Islam), acknowledging him as a prophet of Allah and the Messiah, but with unclear implications that have led to various interpretations in Islam. Unlike the Christian Bible, the Qur'an portrays Jesus as a human being, not the son of God.

It states that Jesus preached the gospel (Injeel) but suggests that the New Testament has been altered and does not reflect Jesus's original teachings.

According to the Qur'an, Jesus was not crucified, nor did he ever claim to be the son of God. While Muslims reject the Christian view of Jesus based on theological grounds, secular scholarship has also sought to reconstruct the historical Jesus through critical methods, which differ from the Qur'anic portrayal.


Imminent Apocalyptic Preacher

Mention arguments are too long to fit on here, recommend reading X,Y,Z for for all points.


Analysis of the sources had made it a consensus view that Jesus believed the 'apocalypse',  i.e. judgment day in Islam; the end of history where the forces of evil would be destroyed and the righteous would enter the kingdom of heaven would happen within his lifetime ?or at least very soon after?.

As biblical scholar Albert Schweitzer famously pointed out in his seminal 1906 work 'The Quest of the Historical Jesus', Jesus’s failed prophecy was not an aberrant remark but at the core of his message.[3] Only in later writings did this message begin to be subverted for a metaphorical kingdom of Earth of those who join Jesus's followers believing in salvation and the resurrection [4]

I.e. only later Gospel writers, beginning with Luke (or John), began to reinterpret these apocalyptic messages as the expected return of Jesus didn’t materialize, suggesting a more spiritual interpretation of the "Kingdom of God." This reinterpretation is seen as an attempt to reconcile early Christian beliefs with the reality that the world didn't end as expected. []


Jesus was estimated have lived between (source) The books that make up the New Testament, documenting Jesus's life and teachings, (and believed by Christians to be divinely inspired writings to cover his teachings, death and salvation) are again consensus to be written in order of seven authentic letters of Paul followed the first Gospel, Mark (~C. 70 C.E), two more inauthentic (source) letters from Paul, followed by The Gospel of Matthew and then The Gospel of Luke, (both~ 80-90 C.E.), five more inauthentic letters attributed to Paul (ibid), followed by The Gospel of John (~90-100 C.E.), with the Book of Revelations and several more inauthentic letters attributed to Paul after that.[5] The books/letters and their dates are as follows:[5]


Date Approximated Dating 1 Thessalonians (Pauls letter) C. 49 C.E. Galatians C. 49-51 C.E. 1 Corinthians C. 54-55 C.E. 2 Corinthians C. 55-56 C.E. Romans C. 56-57 C.E. Philemon 55 C.E. or 61-63 C.E. Philippians C. 59-62 C.E. The Gospel of Mark C. 70 C.E. 2 Thessalonians 70-90 C.E. 1 Peter 70-110 C.E. The Gospel of Matthew 80-90 C.E. The Gospel of Luke 80-90 C.E. The Acts of the Apostles 80-90 C.E. Colossians 80-100 C.E. Ephesians 80-100 C.E. The Epistle to the Hebrews 80-100 C.E. The Epistle to James 80-100 C.E. The Gospel of John 90-100 C.E. The Epistle of Jude 90-100 C.E. The Book of Revelation C. 96 C.E. 1, 2, and 3 John C. 100 C.E. 1 and 2 Timothy 90-120 C.E. Titus 90-120 C.E. 2 Peter 110-140 C.E.

Date Approximated Dating
1 Thessalonians (Pauls letter) C. 49 C.E.
Galatians C. 49-51 C.E.
1 Corinthians C. 54-55 C.E.
2 Corinthians C. 55-56 C.E.
Romans C. 56-57 C.E.
Philemon 55 C.E. or 61-63 C.E.
Philippians C. 59-62 C.E.
The Gospel of Mark C. 70 C.E.
2 Thessalonians 70-90 C.E.
1 Peter 70-110 C.E.
The Gospel of Matthew 80-90 C.E.
The Gospel of Luke 80-90 C.E.
The Acts of the Apostles 80-90 C.E.
Colossians 80-100 C.E.
Ephesians 80-100 C.E.
The Epistle to the Hebrews 80-100 C.E.
The Epistle to James 80-100 C.E.
The Gospel of John 90-100 C.E.
The Epistle of Jude 90-100 C.E.
The Book of Revelation C. 96 C.E.
1, 2, and 3 John C. 100 C.E.
1 and 2 Timothy 90-120 C.E.
Titus 90-120 C.E.
2 Peter 110-140 C.E.


New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman notes that the majority of scholars hypothesis there was also an earlier but lost Gospel known in scholarship 'Q' to have existed, based off shared stories between the gospels of Luke and Matthew which do not come from the earliest Gospel of Mark, which may shared sayings appear to come from. It is believed they used Mark as a key source too.[6]


As Bart Ehrman (year) notes, through careful examination of the earliest and most likely authentic material (e.g. multiply and independently attested, dissimilar[15] and matching the context), we can see early Christians believed and saved the beliefs and saying of Jesus's imminent apocalyptic sayings [9]


Beginning with the earliest writings on Jesus, the authentic letters of Paul, (explain what Paul's letters are) we see some explicit references

  • 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (~C. 49 C.E.): Paul writes, "According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven... And the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Paul includes himself and his contemporaries in the group who will be alive at Christ's return.
  • 1 Corinthians 7:29-31  (~C. 54-55 C.E.): Paul advises, "What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not... For this world in its present form is passing away." This sense of urgency indicates Paul believed the end was near.


This is continued in the Gospels, in fact, the very first words Jesus utters in the first gospel to be written are,

“The time has come. The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news” (Mark 1:15).


(Mark 13:3-31) …after describing what will happen in the apocalypse… 29 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that it[d] is near, right at the door. 30 Truly I tell you


And he said to them, “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power.”

(Mark 9:1)


“Whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of that one will the Son of Man be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.… Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see that the Kingdom of God has come in power” (Mark 8:38–9:1).


The in the next Gospel Matthew


(Matthew 10:23) When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.


(the Son of man was a cosmic judge for the hour[8])


(Matthew 16:28) “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”


(Matthew 24:3-34)  31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.


(Matthew 3:2-10) 2 “Repent of your sins and turn to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near.. ..10 Even now the axe of God’s judgment is poised, ready to sever the roots of the trees. Yes, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be chopped down and thrown into the fire.


In Luke we continue to see early apocalyptic traditions, however as Bart Ehrman notes, we begin to see a 'de-apocolyting' of the message in Luke, [10] who edits earlier traditions from Mark and Q so that it is the next generation that it will arrive.[11]


(Luke 21:7-33)

…29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. 30 When they sprout leaves, you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near. 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.


(Luke 9:27) 27 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”


(Luke 12:40) 40 You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”


(you must be ready - even though it's an unexpected hour?)



Very unlikely to be added by Christians after the fact, as it didn't happen.



John the Baptist whom Jesus closely preached with and is mentioned many times in the NT, and is incidentally is mentioned in the Quran,  was also an apocolyptic pracher  (Matthew 3:2-10)


The Q source gives further information, for here John preaches a clear message of apocalyptic judgment to the crowds that have come out to see him: “Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruits worthy of repentance.… Even now the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire” (Luke 3:7–9). Ehrman, Bart D.. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 138). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.


The Gospel of John writing X years later after the first and second generations passing away,  de-apocalypses much further [12]


Later apocraphyla written after John denies it further, and explicitly condemn the view [13]


Interestingly, the imminent apocalyptic message is completely absent in John, written 10-20 years later as it beocme more apparent it isn't happening, and so 'kingdom of heaven only now becomes a metaphor.


Ethical teachings and their apocalyptic context


(not to save money)

Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal; but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. (Matthew 6:19-21, NRSV)

Madison, David. Ten Things Christians Wish Jesus Hadn't Taught: And Other Reasons to Question His Words (p. 19). Insighting Growth Publications. Kindle Edition.


(Don’t worry about basic human needs)

...do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air; they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. (Matthew 6:25-26, NRSV) Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’

Madison, David. Ten Things Christians Wish Jesus Hadn't Taught: And Other Reasons to Question His Words (p. 20). Insighting Growth Publications. Kindle Edition.


(don't worry about clothing)

Jesus taught his followers to be encouraged by how God “clothes” the lilies of the field. And why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not clothed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? (Matthew 6:28-30, NRSV)

Madison, David. Ten Things Christians Wish Jesus Hadn't Taught: And Other Reasons to Question His Words (p. 23). Insighting Growth Publications. Kindle Edition.


(never say no to a borrower)

Just in case you still don’t think Jesus taught his followers to be financially irresponsible, here’s another thing Christians certainly wish he hadn’t said. ...do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:42, NRSV)

Madison, David. Ten Things Christians Wish Jesus Hadn't Taught: And Other Reasons to Question His Words (p. 25). Insighting Growth Publications. Kindle Edition.


(complete pacifism - believes god will destroy all follower sin their lifetime - and very different to Islamic jihad quote self-defence and offensive warfare verses)

You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, ‘Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:38-42, NRSV)

Madison, David. Ten Things Christians Wish Jesus Hadn't Taught: And Other Reasons to Question His Words (p. 26). Insighting Growth Publications. Kindle Edition.


(give away all your possession - very impractical unless worl ending and soon will have no need for them

So therefore, none of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your possessions. (Luke 14:33 NRSV)


Madison, David. Ten Things Christians Wish Jesus Hadn't Taught: And Other Reasons to Question His Words (pp. 34-35). Insighting Growth Publications. Kindle Edition.


(will receive 100 fold in 'this' life)

Truly I tell you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields, for my sake and for the sake of the good news, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this age—houses, brothers and sisters, mothers and children, and fields, with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life. (Mark 10:29-30, NRSV) We can’t test the promise of eternal life since none of us reading this book have died, but we know that the hundredfold reimbursement in this life makes no sense whatever. I guess televangelists with private jets can make a case that the hundredfold reward Jesus promised in this life works for them,

Madison, David. Ten Things Christians Wish Jesus Hadn't Taught: And Other Reasons to Question His Words (p. 36). Insighting Growth Publications. Kindle Edition.


Further than direct references, Jesus's prediction of an imminent apocalypse underpins many of his teachings, such as advising not to worry about the future  “Do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself” (Matthew 6:34), which make little sense outside of this apocalyptic context.

See: Madison, David. Ten Things Christians Wish Jesus Hadn't Taught: And Other Reasons to Question His Words (pp. 78-79). Insighting Growth Publications. Kindle Edition. For additions to Luke on apocalypticism.


References

[1] Durie, Mark. The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. 321-322). Lexington Books.

The difficulty of analyzing Arabic masīḥ opened the door to much speculation by Muslim exegetes about its interpretation. Lane’s entry for masīḥ states that the major lexicographer al-Fīrūzabādī reported that 50 different meanings had been proposed.


[2] What Do Muslims Think about the Gospels? IslamQA. 2023. https://islamqa.info/en/answers/47516/what-do-muslims-think-about-the-gospels


[3]  Schweitzer, Albert. The Quest of the Historical Jesus (E.g. see pp. 358-368). Jovian Press.


[4]


[5] Bible in Chronological Order (Every Book Ordered by Date Written). Marko Marina, Ph.D. 2024. Bart Ehram.com.  https://www.bartehrman.com/bible-in-chronological-order/


[6] And then there was Q. Bart Ehmran blog. 2017. https://ehrmanblog.org/and-then-there-was-q/


Matthew and Luke obviously share a number of stories with Mark, but they also share with each other a number of passages not found in Mark.  Most of these passages (all but two of them) involve sayings of Jesus — for example, the Beatitudes and the Lord’s Prayer.  Since they didn’t get these passages from Mark, where did they get them?  Since the 19th century scholars have argued that Matthew did not get them from Luke or Luke from Matthew (for reasons I’ll suggest below); that probably means they got them from some other source, a document that no longer survives.


[7]


[8] At Last. Jesus and the Son of Man. Bart Ehrman Blog. 2020. https://ehrmanblog.org/at-last-jesus-and-the-son-of-man/


[9] Ehrman, Bart D.. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 128). Oxford University Press.

Throughout the earliest accounts of Jesus’ words are found predictions of a Kingdom of God that is soon to appear, in which God will rule. This will be an actual kingdom here on earth. When it comes, the forces of evil will be overthrown, along with everyone who has sided with them, and only those who repent and follow Jesus’ teachings will be allowed to enter. Judgment on all others will be brought by the Son of Man, a cosmic figure who may arrive from heaven at any time.


[10] Ehrman, Bart D.. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 130). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.

The earliest sources record Jesus as propounding an apocalyptic message. But, interestingly enough, some of the most clearly apocalyptic traditions come to be “toned down” as we move further away from Jesus’ life in the 20s to Gospel materials produced near the end of the first century. Let me give one example. I’ve already pointed out that Mark was our earliest Gospel and was used as a source for the Gospel of Luke (along with Q and L). It’s a relatively simple business, then, to see how the earlier traditions of Mark fared later in the hands of Luke. Interestingly, some of the earlier apocalyptic emphases begin to be muted. In Mark 9:1, for example, Jesus says, “Truly I tell you, there are some who are standing here who will not taste death until they see that the Kingdom of God has come in power.” Luke takes over this verse—but it is worth noting what he does with it. He leaves out the last few words, so that now Jesus simply says: “Truly I tell you, there are some who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Kingdom of God” (Luke 9:27). The difference might seem slight, but in fact it’s huge: for now Jesus does not predict the imminent arrival of the Kingdom in power, but simply says that the disciples (in some sense) will see the Kingdom. And strikingly, in Luke (but not in our earlier source, Mark), the disciples do see the Kingdom—but not its coming in power. For according to Luke, the Kingdom has already “come to you” in Jesus own ministry (Luke 11:20, not in Mark), and it is said to “be among you” in the person of Jesus himself (Luke 17:21, also not in Mark).


[11]

Ehrman, Bart D.. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 130-131). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.

Let me stress that Luke continues to think that the end of the age is going to come in his own lifetime. But he does not seem to think that it was supposed to come in the lifetime of Jesus’ companions. Why not? Evidently because he was writing after they had died, and he knew that in fact the end had not come. To deal with the “delay of the end,” he made the appropriate changes in Jesus’ predictions. This is evident as well near the end of the Gospel. At Jesus’ trial before the Sanhedrin in Mark’s Gospel, Jesus boldly states to the high priest, “You will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of power and coming with the clouds of heaven” (Mark 14:62). That is, the end would come and the high priest would see it. Luke, writing many years later, after the high priest was long dead and buried, changes the saying: “from now on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God” (Luke 22:69). No longer does Jesus predict that the high priest himself will be alive when the end comes.


[12] Ehrman, Bart D.. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 131). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.

Here, then, is a later source that appears to have modified the earlier apocalyptic sayings of Jesus. You can see the same tendency in the Gospel of John, the last of our canonical accounts to be written. In this account, rather than speaking about


[13]

Ehrman, Bart D.. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 131). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.

This “de-apocalypticizing” of Jesus’ message continues into the second century. In the Gospel of Thomas, for example, written somewhat later than John, there is a clear attack on anyone who believes in a future Kingdom here on earth. In some sayings, for example, Jesus denies that the Kingdom involves an actual place but “is within


&


Ehrman, Bart D.. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 134). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.

Before moving on to a consideration of the specific criteria that historians use with the Gospel traditions, let me stress again here, in conclusion, my simple point about our rules of thumb. The earliest sources that we have consistently ascribe an apocalyptic message to Jesus. This message begins to be

muted by the end of the first century (e.g., in Luke), until it virtually disappears (e.g., in John), and begins, then, to be explicitly rejected and spurned (e.g., in Thomas). It appears that when the end never did arrive, Christians had to take stock of the fact that Jesus said it would and changed his message accordingly. You can hardly blame them.


[14] See commentaries on this verse 4|157 for an explanation https://quranx.com/tafsirs/4.157 of mainstream view. https://journal.rts.edu/article/it-was-made-to-appear-like-that-to-them-islams-denial-of-jesus-crucifixion-in-the-quran-and-dogmatic-tradition/ for problems with it and alt explanations


[15] Ehrman, Bart D.. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 92). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.

“Dissimilar” traditions, that is, those that do not support a clear Christian agenda, or that appear to work against it, are difficult to explain unless they are authentic. They are therefore more likely to be historical.