User:CPO675/Sandbox 1

Google Drive to get images from: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1v3EG_ZAnHjDyn2nkLiBJv-W53tZ-vFY9?usp=sharing.

Introduction

The Quran refers to two different bodies of water, emphasizing there is one sweet and one fresh, and that they meet but there is a barrier between them. Both early and medieval Muslims, and modern Academic scholarship, have identified this with an ancient belief of there being a cosmic ocean of water surrounding the world.^[1] Other classical scholars have attributed it to the way fresh water bodies of water are separate to the salty seas and oceans in general, rather than two specific bodies of water, not taking the verse literally.^[2][3]

Some modern Muslims have tried to reconcile the relevant verses with natural phenomena, including estuaries meeting the sea, and different seas having different salt levels. However the verses do not accurately describe this, and actually conflict with the description as will be pointed out in the article. When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them.

The Qur'an

There is a consistent theme of 'the two seas' ("al-baḥrayni, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), with the exact term being used 5 times in the Quran.

We are told that there are two seas ("al-baḥrayni, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salty and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will never be passed.

Q55:22 quoted below states that coral emerges from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching.^[4]

And again in Q35:12 we are told the two seas with one being freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter). But from both come fresh meat (presumably fish) and ornaments to wear come from both (presumably coral and pearl as mentioned above in verse Q 55:22).

Again, there is a barrier between the two seas.

Another reference to "the two seas" is found in the story of Moses and his servant, where he meets a man (Al-Khidr) who has special knowledge of events that have not yet happened from god, and tests Moses to carry out seemingly immoral tasks without asking him why:

The full story of Moses and Al-Khidr can be found lower on this page for context.

Apologists claims

Estuaries and salt water

Apologists claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them, and even that the descriptions show advanced knowledge of science that could not have been known to a person from the 7th century. You can see the images referenced in this link which are repeated on many Islamic websites.

The first claim is around fresh water from rivers meeting seas/oceans of salt water, with the transition stage known as estuaries:

(((EDITORS: Are you able to add Picture 2 in the quote box below (as shown in the Islamic website please)))

Note that in the above referenced claim in the book (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman), they have added the words “Zone of Separation” and “The partition" onto Figure 4 (saying “with slight enhancement”), which the book itself does not have - clearly to link the word 'partition' (as translated into English by several official translators of the Quran) with the scientific book.

Issues with this interpretation

Problems with miracle claim

There are big issues with claiming this is a scientific miracle (and even scientifically accurate):

1. Firstly as with all claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clearly described a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into several typical categories used for these claims such as selective literalism, de-historicization and pseudo-corelation (see Scientific Miracles in the Quran), taking advantage of ambiguity in language to fit a modern reading..
2. The idea of the density of salt water being more than freshwater, separating the two was already known at least by the time of Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC); “The drinkable, sweet water, l of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.”^[5]
3. This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sailing nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as humans have sailed since ancient times,^[6] and the colours are often different (as seen in the image on this page), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier placed by God between the two waters.
4. This description implies there is no mixing between them at all, and could just as easily be written by someone incorrectly believing this.

A deeper analysis can be found on the now defunct and archived former (more polemical) Wikiislam website' page on scientific miracles Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran.

Problems with general accuracy

We are told that there are specifically the two seas (al-baḥrayni).

• This uses the definite particle 'al' for 'the' for a specific two seas, not general.
• 'baḥr' بحر for large body of water/sea.
• the dual suffix/ending in 'ayni' -ين means there are two of them, as opposed to singular or plural (3 or more in Arabic).

1. Yet this happens in many places (there are over 1,200 documented estuaries,^[7] i.e. more than two) across the world - nowhere does the language suggest this is the case, as to match this Qur'an verse it must be referring to a single specific but unnamed estuary. There are many far better ways to phrase this if it meant this natural and general phenomena.
2. There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. Salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them here and on CostalWiki for accessible science for the general reader), however despite what it may look like on the surface they all mix to varying degrees - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they are forbidden to pass.
3. It does not use the word specifically for river (نھر "Nahar" - a word also used elsewhere in the Qur'an to describe a river) and sea, which would have been an accurate way to describe it.
4. If the mixing zones aren't part of either 'sea' being mentioned but a 'barrier', then there are 3 bodies of water in this, and the language could reflect the mixing zone by stating that one of them is made of both sweet and salty water (brackish water^[8]). This also would separate it from the other specific seas being referred to as we will discuss in the next section.

Two actual seas

Secondly, it states the verses not specifically mentioning sweet and salty waters are referring to different seas with different kinds of waters (again click the link to see the images):

(((EDITORS: Are you able to add Picture 3 in the quote box below (as shown in the Islamic website please)))

Problems with miracle claim and general science

• Firstly, it is a leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two 'seas' mentioned in Quran 55:19-20 from the others, as they all use the same phrase to refer to a specific two seas it is implied the audience is already familiar with.
• Quran 35:12 states ornaments for us to wear are from both seas, salty and sweet linking the coral and pearl this to the sweet and salty seas as repeated in verse 55:22.
• Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them means this is for two specific seas, while this phenomena occurs in many places, even the North Atlantic, South Atlantic the Pacific Oceans have different salt levels.^[9] And there are more examples of aquatic sills^[10], with some notable examples given here - which does not match a single specific case as the definite article used in the Quran suggests. For vertically mixed zones where salinity changes rapidly, a pycnocline zone, and more specifically, a halocline zone^[11], is always a mixture of fresh water and salt water - in fact it is a product of their mixing.
• For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing, this is not true, as Piers Chapman of Texas A&M University writes on Waterencyclopedia^[12]: 'Mixing in the ocean occurs on several scales.. The best-known example of this process, known as salt fingering, occurs where very salty water from the Mediterranean outflow mixes into the North Atlantic... Most mixing, however, takes place on larger scales in response to forcing by the wind'.

Antiquity interpretation

There is another interpretation that is the only one to accurately fit the verses on a literal plain reading, which is discussed below. This fits a prevalent antiquity (and pre-antiquity) view that was present across the region, and also held in biblical cosmology and later Christian/Jewish exegesis at the time of Mohammad, that this refers to a somewhat magical cosmic ocean surrounding the Earth.

This likely originates from ancient Mesopotamian myths, such as the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".^[13] Wensinck explains,^[14] "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites".

Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due to a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative). Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, the verse in question is scientifically wrong.

The view in its historical context is well summarised in Tommaso Tesei's 2015 article 'Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context', examining the Qur'ans verse on Moses meeting a servant at the meeting of the two seas, which he claims is influenced by a story of Alexander the Great (see Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance), which also features in this Surah. The main discussion is on verses:

The full article from Tommaso, which is recommended to read to understand the context, can be read in the link on JSTOR for free by making an account, which provides a full overview.

The Quran states that Moses is able to reach “the junction of the two seas” (majmaʿ al-baḥrayni), where he meets a Servant of God. It states that he is able to reach it after hearing from his young attendant about the fish that they were carrying with them (for food) escaping. This is twice referred to, in Q18:61 and v63. In both cases the dynamic is described by exactly the same phrase, with v63 ending in ʿajaban, which is commonly translated as “wondrously” or “in a marvellous way,” and 'saraban', which has caused problems and disagreements among Muslim commentators:

The puzzled commentators have given rise to a number of conflicting interpretations by later Muslims^[15] starting from the mid-8th century exegesis, who often came up with miraculous/magical stories to link the dead fish escaping with a tunnel (a summary is provided in the article). Tommaso states that such attempts to relate the path the fish takes in the sea to passage on land are direct consequences of the apparent discordance between the meaning of the word sarab, “subterranean passage,” and the place where it is said to be found: the sea. It seems the later commentators did not have the full story it arose from. With the story matching a common motif of the water of life surrounding the Earth that could give life to the dead:

Islamic scholar Gabriel Said Reynolds also notes this 'junction between two seas' (and other verses mentioning the two seas) as likely meaning the waters of the heaven. He also provides a translation of the relevant sections from the Alexander Song in his 2018 book "The Quran and Bible: Text and Commentary",^[16] which seems to have influenced the story (again see Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance):

This also explains why the fish (which was their food, i.e. dead) then comes back to life and takes to the sea in a 'marvellous' way (it is worth pointing out the obvious that there is no sea on Earth that can revive dead animals):

Similar to other religious near-East sources:

The Biblical and Judeo-Christian background literature

The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedents of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature. The Bible itself also contains a sea above the Earth:

Islamic Scholar Angelika Neuwirth notes in her commentary on verses 55:19-22, that the text, along with many other verses, contains calls to the Palms:

Pre-Islamic poetry

The fact that the Qur'an addresses its audience with the claim of the two (specific not general) seas, without giving more explanation or context about what they are or where, also suggests the initial audience were acquainted with its meaning. We can see these views were also prevalent in Arabia at the time of Mohammad's preaching as this poem from a contemporary of Muhammad mentions the Earth being settled on the waters:

Post-Islamic Poetry

We further see the cosmic ocean continue to appear in poetry from respected Muslim poets, such as by Dhu'l-Nun Al-Misri (d. 859), who was born in Akhmim, upper Egypt and was an Egyptian Sufi Master. He was considered the Patron Saint of the Physicians in the early Islamic era of Egypt and is credited with having introduced the concept of Gnosis into Islam.^[20] In his Qasida 'Hymn of Creation', we find:

This view has more evidence from Islamic sources.

Islamic Literature - The two seas in the story Moses and Al-Khidr

In Quran 18:60 Moses states that he won't give up until he reaches the two seas, or has progressed for many 'ages' (in Arabic huquban حُقُبًا) , with the word implying this junction is extremely far from land (many translators such as Yusuf Khan, Shakir and Muhsin Khan translate it as 'years'), taking longer than any journey on our actual oceans would take. For example Christopher Columbus's journeys to America in the 1,400's took around 4 weeks to 6 months depending on the wind and weather.^[21] This suggests the author thought it was very far away from the Middle East where Moses is said to have preached.

This story continues where Moses goes with a 'servant of God' at the junction of the two seas, who is unnamed in the Qur'an but called 'Al-Khidr' in the Hadith. This man has extremely accurate foreknowledge of both future events and human nature (predestination), so he carries out seemingly strange immoral tasks and tells Moses to be patient and not ask him about them; these are making a hole in a boat to sink it, killing a young child, and fixing a wall for free for a town that refused them hospitality.

However Moses cannot help but ask why they are doing them, so after three events Al-Khidr parts ways with him and tells him why he committed the acts; he made a hole in the boat as it was about to be stolen by a king if they departed at that moment, the child was killed as he would become a disbeliever, hurting his devout parents - so God will replace him with a 'purer' one, and the as for fixing the wall, he built it because it is covering a hidden treasure and two orphan boys will find this later.

This verse is expanded upon in a sahih/authentic hadith: Sahih Bukhari 4:55:613

We can see that the servants knowledge of events to come is so great he is able to teach a prophet as important as Moses; and even become annoyed with him and leave him for questioning him. This kind of knowledge is usually only reserved for God, which although not a direct piece of evidence, fits someone coming from a special sea in the sense they are so supernatural and unlike any other character in the Quran. The verses talking about the two seas also usually appear after important creation events: Quran 55:22 is mentioned just after creating humans and jinn, Quran 35:12 following creation of humans from clay, and Quran 27:61 - a verse before mentions creating the heavens and the Earth; suggesting this is an important part of creation, which two specific but essentially random (as are never identified) seas are not as fitting.

Islamic Views - Hadith and Qur'an

In the two most authoritative hadith collections, we see in Sahih Bukhari that Muhammad is recorded as saying that when going into the seven heavens on a night journey (see: Buraq), the rivers in paradise came to Earth via the Nile and Euphrates. This clearly backs up the idea identified by Tommaso that fresh water comes into Earth via a freshwater cosmic ocean with rivers:

And this idea is backed up in Sahih Muslim:

From this Quran verse we see that God's throne was on 'the waters' during creation:

Which were there before the universe was created (this hadith is rated Hasan/Good by Darussalam):

As well as a hadith in Sunan Ibn Majah's collection, which although is rated 'Da'if/weak' (so unlikely to have come directly from Muhammad), show's early Muslim understanding of the verses as a cosmic sea in the sky, above the seventh heaven:

Islamic Commentaries

Al-Tabari also provided an interpretation on this meaning of this verse to mean a 'sea in the sky and earth that meet every year' (with other views in his tafsir on verse:)

And speaks of a cosmic waters that surround the Earth and heavens elsewhere.

Angelika Neuwirth notes that Tabari's is the interpretation in accordance with the Qur'anic evidence, while other later interpretations (e.g. of different actual seas and metaphorical seas of fresh and salty water discussed below) were created to fit new Greek science.^[22]

Al-Qurtubi, another prominent Sunni Scholar also provides this 'sky and Earth sea meeting' view:

Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs and Tafsir Ibn Al Kathir commentary on verse 18:60, while not stating this comes from a cosmic ocean (but rather a nearby spring), also relate this story to a rock which contains the fountain of life reviving a dead fish, which pulls motifs from the near-East view of a magical cosmic waters with life-giving qualities. (Once again it is worth pointing out the obvious that there is no magic fountain or rock on Earth that can revive dead animals for this interpretation to fit).

It is also very difficult to imagine how one would know they had reached a junction of two seas, if this was referring to man-made sea boundaries as (such as the Persian and Roman seas) which many later commentaries guess at. However they would be more likely to know by reaching a magical barrier between the Earthly sea and cosmic ocean.

This idea of a cosmic ocean also has strong connections to the myth of the Islamic whale (see: The Islamic Whale) swimming in the ocean with Earth on its back, a view held by most major traditional Islamic scholars on their Qur'an commentaries such as Al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Al-Razi, Al Qurtubi etc. The prominent Shia scholar Al-Qummi (d. 919 C.E) also talks of the cosmic ocean the sun, moon and stars are in.

Separately, in the story of Gog and Magog, also linked to Dhul-Qarnayn/Alexander the Great and this tale, some Shi'i traditions locate the barrier (of Gog and Magog) either behind the Mediterranean, between the two mountains found there, whose rear part is the encircling sea/ocean of the world (al-Baḥr al-Muḥīṭ).^[23]

As mentioned in the introductory paragraph, there are many classical scholars who have attributed the 'two seas' verses other than Moses reaching them (in Q18:60-65) as non-literal, in the sense that it is referring to the way that fresh water bodies of water are separate to the salty seas and oceans in general,^[24]usually by land.^[25] However once again it should be noted that it is not supported by the actual language of the Quran which designates the verse to be talking about two specific large bodies of water, rather than the many, many separate but unconnected bodies of fresh water across Earth. This view for example by Ibn Kathir seems supported by the fact that no-where on Earth has a sea with fresh water rather than a linguistic analysis (let alone there is no-where on Earth a freshwater sea touches a saltwater sea without merging).

Folklore and maps

Karen C. Pinto, a scholar who wrote a book on medieval Islamic maps, focusing on a distinct tradition of maps known collectively as the Book of Roads and Kingdoms (Kitab al-Masalik wa al-Mamalik, or KMMS)^[26], shows this view, known as the encircling ocean (al-Baḥr al-Muḥīṭ), was also part of Islamic folklore and art:

(((EDITORS: Are you able to add Picture 4 into this quote box above the text please)))

More images of Islamic Maps showing this can be seen for free in her 2017 article In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision on P56, P57 P59 and P61.

• Archive Wikiislam (former version) - Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran - Previous archived Wikiislam page on the former site covering this 'miracle'
• Answering Islam - Facts About the Seas and Oceans
• The Rain Model in Muhammad's Mind - an article on Islam Vs Atheism.com covering this topic and other water cycle-related verses in the Quran and hadith
• Waters that Never mix - islamwhattheydonttellyou164 - YouTube video