User talk:Sahab: Difference between revisions

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Sahab

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 :::::::::::::::I've had a look at it, and your response doesn't make sense, or at least it is not worded clearly enough for it to be apparent. You mention that Yusuf Ali "does not explain what he means by seed: Sperm, semen, ovum or zygote". But then fail to expand on that by explaining how or why it matters. Then you say "But he does not say what a rib is, metaphorically." However, Yusuf Ali is not claiming the rib is anything metaphorically. I don't think we even need to respond to Yusuf Ali's metaphor claim, but if we do it, then the response should be clear and decisive. I don't think this is either. You can ask Axius to comment here if you want a second opinion. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 10:58, 31 March 2014 (PDT)
 ::::::::::::::::Fixed.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:57, 31 March 2014 (PDT)
-== Womb sentence ==
-[http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/228/default.htm Here] see its second sentence. does it make enough of sense? some stray translator calls it "hiding pregnancy," but is it really something that can be hidden over time? especially in those old days? If it is unclear, it should go into some article.--[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:46, 20 March 2014 (PDT)
-:I think it sounds pretty clear. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 20:04, 20 March 2014 (PDT)
-:: What does this mean? "Do not kill your children secretly, for the milk, with which a child is suckled while his mother is pregnant, overtakes the horseman and throws him from his horse."[http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/028-sat.php#028.3872] [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 08:18, 2 April 2014 (PDT)
-:::Why? [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 08:22, 2 April 2014 (PDT)
-::::I think he just wants to know what the hadith means. Strange hadith. I dont know myself. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 09:56, 2 April 2014 (PDT)
-:::::Appears to be claiming fetuses drink their mother's milk in the womb. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 10:01, 2 April 2014 (PDT)
-::::::Whoa lol. Yea I think you're right. I dont know what that horseman thing means though. Funny. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 10:11, 2 April 2014 (PDT)
-:::::::Yeah, I dunno what the "horseman" refers to either. It's probably the killer. And the milk thing sounds silly but it's not out of the ordinary for Islamic literature where the moon and sun are considered sentient beings and food likewise "praise Allah" or warn Muhammad of poisoning. Although we have to be careful with such things because while the former is a scientific error, the latter is a miracle. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 12:22, 2 April 2014 (PDT)
-::::::::To put it somewhere.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:23, 2 April 2014 (PDT)
-:::::::::Scientific Errors in the Hadith? (lol. I'm assuming it can't be argued that fetuses suckle on their mother's milk). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 12:26, 2 April 2014 (PDT)
-:::::::::So I was thinking the apologist could argue (as they do) but that the child in this quote is a child outside which has been born already: ''"with which a child is suckled while his mother is pregnant"''. In any case, this hadith could be in a "Other Hadiths" sub-section or wherever (its up to you guys). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 14:57, 2 April 2014 (PDT)
-::::::::::I'll fill in the details of every possible meaning. But if this is for the scientific error article, what title to give it? "Breast milk can overflow?"[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:23, 3 April 2014 (PDT)
-:::::::::::Could be "Break milk is consumed by Fetus", etc.
-:::::::::::But look what I found. I think this is interesting. I googled "greek science breast milk uterus" and I found this paper. Google "The History of the Knowledge of Reproductive Anatomy and Physiology " [https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&q=+The+History+of+the+Knowledge+of+Reproductive+Anatomy+and+Physiology+&oq=+The+History+of+the+Knowledge+of+Reproductive+Anatomy+and+Physiology] and click on the link from www.lab.anhb.uwa.edu.au
-::::::::::::''ca 150 A.D. -- Galen – was a Greek Biologist and philosopher who practised medicine, was a surgeon to gladiators and a public demonstrator of anatomy.''
-::::::::::::''He also believed women had two uteri ending in single neck. One of his theories was that if milk flows from the breasts of a pregnant woman, it is an indication that the foetus will be weak. His reasoning for this is; '''the breasts and uterus are joined by common vessels. The foetus inside the uterus is bathed in nutrients (milk)''', if this milk overflows to the breasts it is because the foetus is not strong enough to consume as much as it should be.''
-:::::::::::Galen is mentioned on our site in other places too. [https://www.google.com/search?site=&source=hp&q=galen+site%3Awikiislam.net&oq=galen+site%3Awikiislam.net site search]. Food for thought. I knew it could be connected to Greek science just like the Embryology/semen backbone stuff is copied from Greek science in Islamic texts. I would suggest the next steps as possibly finding more related hadiths and any Islamic scholar's comments on this hadith and then citing this paper to link them. There needs to be more study to see completely what the hadith means to say.
-:::::::::::Then I added Galen to the search query [https://www.google.com/search?biw=1920&bih=852&q=greek+science+breast+milk+uterus+galen&oq=greek+science+breast+milk+uterus+galen greek science breast milk uterus galen]. Click on the PDF "Exploring gender: Islamic Perspectives on Breastfeeding" for more info.
-:::::::::::Galen says in another link [http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/65/2/374] "so that if a nursing mother should become pregnant,", so it might be talking about a pregnant woman who is nursing another child. This is just more information. Saggy could you analyze this carefully or do more research before putting the hadith in to make sure we are not putting in any hadiths that can be explained. I have no additional input on this. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 15:12, 3 April 2014 (PDT)
-::::::::::::The minimum error is that milk overflows. Where is the baby or how many babies are there does not matter. I'll insert this and its better to see if somebody tries to refute or explain the rest of words later. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 04:00, 4 April 2014 (PDT)
-:::::::::::::[http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Scientific_Errors_in_the_Hadith&curid=9085&diff=106600&oldid=106482] "there can be only some leakage of milk", can qualify for "A Pregnant woman's milk can overflow". Technically "some leakage" is "overflow". --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 04:30, 4 April 2014 (PDT)
-::::::::::::::No, it throws a horseman! All i found was this denial-[http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=91918] and another where a guy will make 60 women pregnant and their kids will become horsemen of war[http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/015-smt.php] - it maybe related to our subject of child/horseman but it does not clarify the milk. neway I read some breastfeeding facts and wrote down.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 04:36, 4 April 2014 (PDT)
-:::::::::::::::Let me think- mother or somebody else may have planned to kill the foetus ( but i am not sure if this was possible). If it is killed what happens to the milk? overflow, at best. If she's pregnant and feeds a second child and this child is to be killed, again the milk may be excess. the horseman falling must be the exagerration and it is best to point that out. I checked more - only breastfeed woman leaks often. but pregnant plus breastfeeder can be sometimes low on milk supply.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 04:51, 4 April 2014 (PDT)
-::::::::::::::::Added ref for decreased milk. The ref template needs some fixes. i see it later, i've to go.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 05:05, 4 April 2014 (PDT)
-:::::::::::::::::Ok, I think I understand now. The hadith says that it will always be the case that overflow happens for a pregnant breast feeding woman. I still dont get the logic behind the hadith "Dont kill your child because otherwise the milk wont overflow" ... ? Must be some background on the hadith as to whats going on. Yea I saw that link. I googled [https://www.google.com/search?biw=1920&bih=852&q=%22overtakes+the+horseman+and+throws+him+from+his+horse.%22&oq=%22overtakes+the+horseman+and+throws+him+from+his+horse.%22&gs_l=serp.3...12123.12994.0.13351.3.3.0.0.0.0.85.251.3.3.0....0...1c.1.39.serp..3.0.0.KbC8LzjI35c "overtakes the horseman and throws him from his horse"] and saw a few more links. Here's another [http://www.somalinet.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=320733] which is about intercourse and other stuff.:
-::::::::::::::::::''Imam Abu Sulaiman Al Khattabi explaining the hadith says, “The Prophet (pbuh) is indicating that when the husband has intercourse with his breastfeeding wife, which results in pregnancy, it reduces her milk, thus depriving the suckling child, as it is being nourished from that milk, hence weakening the suckling child”. (Ma’aalim Al Sunan of Imam Abu Sulaiman Al Khattabi)''
-::::::::::::::::: and this quote (note the interpretation of horseman etc):
-::::::::::::::::::''The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "…gheelah (pregnancy during the period of breastfeeding) overtakes the rider and throws him from the horse." ('''Reported by Abu Dawud, this means''' that the child who nurses from a pregnant mother will suffer from it in later life like a horseman who is thrown from his horse.)"''
-:::::::::::::::::There may be additional information in the google link about the horseman phrase. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 05:08, 4 April 2014 (PDT)
-::::::::::::::::::And after Googling that phrase ("this means ....") I found only two links, one of which was that forum and the other is this [http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-the-scholar/family/pregnancy-and-newborns/175346.html?newborns=]. So I think this hadith may not be a good choice after addition after all but check all of this information and see for yourself. You can also get additional scientific error Hadiths from this page: [[Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Islamic_Silliness]]. You can copy the ones that can be shown as scientific errors. Its ok to have one hadith shown in multiple pages. But yes continue with your hadith scanning/search because we know there are more errors/things found in Hadith than Quran verses.  --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 05:23, 4 April 2014 (PDT)
-:::::::::::::::::::I searched for "Romans persians" and got this [http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/008-smt.php] Book 008, Number 3391 is what they seem to call gheelah. But gheelah does not appear linked to "kill children" nor to the fall from horse. Its tiring; verifying such claims. What analogy did they say: Child will suffer the same as a horseback fall? is it due to milk in any way? This fall-suffer analogy is strange, it seems like all those  miracle claims derived from half sentences. The subject is clearly milk, not child. but they changed it to child to brush it away. So you have googled and thrown light(lol) on two separate parts: If the second half is an analogy, the first is not clear. If we understand or assume the first, the second is not clear. "Milk throws the horseman from the horse" looks the same as "sperm flows between backbone and ribs." By now, a whole article could be made on this mess if needed.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 09:15, 4 April 2014 (PDT)
-{{outdent}} (outdented)''"This fall-suffer analogy is strange"'' - the apologist will quote Abu Dawaud and claim that its not referring to overflow but punishment later on. I would suggest to move on to something else as things are not as clear as we would like them to be (unless additional evidence can be found). The problem is the meaning of the hadith is not clear, and we cannot claim that horseman refers to overflow (without evidence that says so). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 09:28, 4 April 2014 (PDT)
-:That is what I was trying to say - such an apologist cant show which word refers to what, ''satisfactorily.'' (is it "milk" that refers to punishment?) I had said the sperm thing on realising that the first guy who pointed out the sperm-flow error did not expect that apologists will give 10 different interpretations, half of them twisting the original words. They are all debunked. Same may happen here. We should take the hadith literally unless there is strong evidence for different meanings in it.[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 10:06, 4 April 2014 (PDT)
-::Agreed that it should be taken literally. Literally it just says "horseman taking over the horse". Anything else (overflow or punishment) needs a reference. I would suggest adding the hadith to some kind of "to do" page where hadiths of interest are listed so it can be looked at again when there's more information. If the hadith literally said something about over flow or punishment or lack of milk for the other baby etc, it would be another situation. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 10:10, 4 April 2014 (PDT)
-:::I think that hadith should not be added to the list. I do not get "A Pregnant woman's milk can overflow" from a literal reading. In the end, a literal reading is all that matters because anything else is an interpretation and can be argued against. Ultimately, this is just one odd hadith out of literally thousands of odd hadith, so I don't see any importance in this. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 00:28, 5 April 2014 (PDT)
-::::Ok. Yes, the concept ofoverflow is not mentioned explictly and one interpretation says it means something else.
-::::Saggy, I would to reiterate the need for adding content that is "rebuttal" proof. You said ''"Its tiring; verifying such claims."''. Yes its more work making sure new content is strong and of high quality but [[What_People_Say_About_WikiIslam|its worth it]]. If you want you can add the Hadith to your own "to do" page/section where you can continue the research (in which case make sure you add the reference to the Abu Dawud meaning of suffering I found). Again, do look at the [[Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Islamic_Silliness|Silliness]] hadiths to see if any can be added from there to the Science errors page. Many hadiths/verses are easy decisions to insert if the meanings are clear (this kind of hadith is not found often). Easy or not, all new content still needs a careful look to make sure it is acceptable.
-::::Its nice that you have been researching hadiths and verses and some of your other additions have been fine so yea, continue that. I recommend you do it like this as its easier: Put all of the interesting verses and hadiths you come across in your own temporary Sandbox page, and when you have a certain number, start inserting them into the relevant pages (after a good review). And then you can go back and search some more. This is easier than finding one quote, inserting, finding another and inserting etc. In the Sandbox you also have more freedom to write what you want until its finalized: [[User:Saggy/Sandbox]], [[User:Saggy/Sandbox for QHS]]. etc --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 05:23, 5 April 2014 (PDT)
 == Hans Raj ==