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==Absence of consensus in the Muslim world==
==Absence of consensus in the Muslim world==


While many people in some regions had [[w:Spherical_Earth|known for centuries]] that the Earth was round and not flat, the question is whether Muhammad and his nearby contemporaries in Arabia had this knowledge.
Knowledge of the spherical nature of the Earth was [[w:Spherical_Earth|known for centuries]], however distribution of information across the world was not uniform. A commonly held stance is that Muhammad and his companions had this knowledge.


[https://islamqa.info/en/118698 One Islamic fatwah website]<ref>[https://islamqa.info/en/118698 IslamQA.info - 118698: Consensus that the Earth is round]</ref> (copied by others) quotes from scholars who lived hundreds of years after Muhammad in a failed attempt to show that there was always a Muslim consensus that the Earth is round. They are implying that the Qur'an does not reflect a very human lack of knowledge about the shape of the Earth.
[https://islamqa.info/en/118698 One Islamic fatwah website]<ref>[https://islamqa.info/en/118698 IslamQA.info - 118698: Consensus that the Earth is round]</ref> (copied by others) quotes from scholars who lived hundreds of years after Muhammad in a failed attempt to show that there was always a Muslim consensus that the Earth is round. They are implying that the Qur'an does not reflect a very human lack of knowledge about the shape of the Earth.


'''ibn Taymiyyah'''
=== ibn Taymiyyah ===
 
To do so, they first quote from a book by ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 AH/1328 CE), who in turn cites Abu’l-Husayn Ahmad ibn Ja‘far ibn al Munadi as saying that the scholars from the second level of the companions of Imam Ahmad (d. 241 AH / 855 CE) – i.e. the early Hanbalis – said there was consensus among the scholars that both heaven and Earth are balls, the latter based on astronomical reasoning. This evidence is worthless, because from the 8th century CE the Muslims had access to Greek and Indian astronomical knowledge (see below), so of course Muslim scholars had this view. The term 'consensus' (ijma) was used in different ways by different scholars, but essentially meant the agreement of Muslim scholars, or ideally, also of the salaf (the first three generations of Muslims)<ref>[http://www.sunnah.org/fiqh/ijma.htm sunnah.org] Questions on Ijma` (concensus), Taqlid (following qualified opinion), and Ikhtilaf Al-Fuqaha' (differences of the jurists) by Shaykh Hisham Muhammad Kabbani</ref>. In this case it is explicitly the scholars. As we read on, however, it is apparent that even this "consensus" for a round Earth was rather nebulous, and as already mentioned and will see again, those who did endorse a round Earth did so because they were educated people aware of the astronomical arguments.
To do so, they first quote from a book by ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 AH/1328 CE), who in turn cites Abu’l-Husayn Ahmad ibn Ja‘far ibn al Munadi as saying that the scholars from the second level of the companions of Imam Ahmad (d. 241 AH / 855 CE) – i.e. the early Hanbalis – said there was consensus among the scholars that both heaven and Earth are balls, the latter based on astronomical reasoning. This evidence is worthless, because from the 8th century CE the Muslims had access to Greek and Indian astronomical knowledge (see below), so of course Muslim scholars had this view. The term 'consensus' (ijma) was used in different ways by different scholars, but essentially meant the agreement of Muslim scholars, or ideally, also of the salaf (the first three generations of Muslims)<ref>[http://www.sunnah.org/fiqh/ijma.htm sunnah.org] Questions on Ijma` (concensus), Taqlid (following qualified opinion), and Ikhtilaf Al-Fuqaha' (differences of the jurists) by Shaykh Hisham Muhammad Kabbani</ref>. In this case it is explicitly the scholars. As we read on, however, it is apparent that even this "consensus" for a round Earth was rather nebulous, and as already mentioned and will see again, those who did endorse a round Earth did so because they were educated people aware of the astronomical arguments.


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It is the hadiths and companions that we are interested in for the purposes of this article (the Qur'an verses cited by ibn Taymiyyah are {{Quran|21|33}}, {{Quran|36|40}}, {{Quran|39|5}}, and {{Quran|67|5}}).
It is the hadiths and companions that we are interested in for the purposes of this article (the Qur'an verses cited by ibn Taymiyyah are {{Quran|21|33}}, {{Quran|36|40}}, {{Quran|39|5}}, and {{Quran|67|5}}).


'''Hadiths'''
Ibn Taymiyyah then mentions the hadith in Sunan Abu Dawud (graded weak) {{Abu Dawud||4726|darussalam}} in which Muhammad forms a dome with his fingers above his head when saying that Allah's throne is above the heavens. Ibn Taymiyyah's interpretation is that the throne is dome shaped.<ref>if you ask Allah for anything, ask Him for the Firdaus, for it is the last part of Paradise and the highest part of Paradise, and at its top there is the Throne of Beneficent, and from it gush forth the rivers of Paradise." [the word translated 'last' means middle].


Ibn Taymiyyah then mentions the hadith in Sunan Abu Dawud (graded weak) {{Abu Dawud||4726|darussalam}} in which Muhammad forms a dome with his fingers above his head when saying that Allah's throne is above the heavens. Ibn Taymiyyah's interpretation is that the throne is dome shaped.


The other hadith he mentions is in Sahih Bukhari, which says:
Sahih Bukhari 9:93:519</ref>
 
{{Quote|{{Bukhari|9|93|519}}|if you ask Allah for anything, ask Him for the Firdaus, for it is the last part of Paradise and the highest part of Paradise, and at its top there is the Throne of Beneficent, and from it gush forth the rivers of Paradise." [the word translated 'last' means middle].}}


Ibn Taymiyyah then says that a middle only exists in a round thing. How any of this helps demonstrate that the heavens are spherical is a mystery.
Ibn Taymiyyah then says that a middle only exists in a round thing. How any of this helps demonstrate that the heavens are spherical is a mystery.


'''Ibn Hazm'''
=== Ibn Hazm ===
 
The Islamic fatwah website then quotes one of the three that ibn Taymiyyah cited, ibn Hazm, who said that there is sound evidence that the Earth is round, but the common people and some non-leading Muslim scholars thought otherwise, though none of the leading scholars denied that the Earth is round.  
The Islamic fatwah website then quotes one of the three that ibn Taymiyyah cited, ibn Hazm, who said that there is sound evidence that the Earth is round, but the common people and some non-leading Muslim scholars thought otherwise, though none of the leading scholars denied that the Earth is round.  


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Given that Ibn Taymiyyah cites these scholars, the narrations he then uses to support spherical heavens (when asked about the shape of both the heavens and Earth), were presumably the best they could come up with. If a consensus for a round Earth went back to Muhammad and the companions, surely the scholars could come up with better than this feeble evidence.
Given that Ibn Taymiyyah cites these scholars, the narrations he then uses to support spherical heavens (when asked about the shape of both the heavens and Earth), were presumably the best they could come up with. If a consensus for a round Earth went back to Muhammad and the companions, surely the scholars could come up with better than this feeble evidence.


Even the already dubious claims of just a ''scholarly'' consensus are further undermined when we read Tafsir al-Jalalayn, which was written centuries later by two people who were not trying to massage the Qur'an to fit a round Earth reality. For {{Quran|88|20}} we read the following:
Even the already dubious claims of just a ''scholarly'' consensus are further undermined when we read Tafsir al-Jalalayn, which was written centuries later by two people who were not trying to massage the Qur'an to fit a round Earth reality. For {{Quran|88|20}}  


{{Quote|1=[http://main.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=88&tAyahNo=20&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Tafsir al-Jalalayn for Qur'an 88:20]|2=As for His words sutihat ‘laid out flat’ this on a literal reading suggests that the earth is flat which is the opinion of most of the scholars of the revealed Law and not a sphere as astronomers (ahl al-hay’a) have it even if this latter does not contradict any of the pillars of the Law.}}
{{Quote-text|Tafsir al-Jalalayn for Qur'an 88:20|As for His words sutihat ‘laid out flat’ this on a literal reading suggests that the earth is flat which is the opinion of most of the scholars of the revealed Law and not a sphere as astronomers (ahl al-hay’a) have it even if this latter does not contradict any of the pillars of the Law.}}


For details on this word, sutihat, in verse 88:20, see [[Flat Earth and the Quran#Qur.27an 88:20 - sutihat .28spread out flat.29|this section]] of the flat Earth article.
For details on this word, sutihat, in verse 88:20, see [[Flat Earth and the Quran#Qur.27an 88:20 - sutihat .28spread out flat.29|this section]] of the flat Earth article.
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Professor Kevin Van Bladel says:
Professor Kevin Van Bladel says:


{{Quote||When the worldview of educated Muslims after the establishment of the Arab Empire came to incorporate principles of astrology including the geocentric, spherical, Aristotelian-Ptolemaic world picture – particularly after the advent of the ‘Abbāsid dynasty in 750 – the meaning of these passages came to be interpreted in later Islamic tradition not according to the biblical-quranic cosmology, which became obsolete, but according to the Ptolemaic model, according to which the Quran itself came to be interpreted.<ref>Van Bladel, Kevin, “Heavenly cords and prophetic authority in the Qur’an and its Late Antique context”, Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, 70:223-246, p.241, Cambridge University Press, 2007</ref>}}
"When the worldview of educated Muslims after the establishment of the Arab Empire came to incorporate principles of astrology including the geocentric, spherical, Aristotelian-Ptolemaic world picture – particularly after the advent of the ‘Abbāsid dynasty in 750 – the meaning of these passages came to be interpreted in later Islamic tradition not according to the biblical-quranic cosmology, which became obsolete, but according to the Ptolemaic model, according to which the Quran itself came to be interpreted."<ref>Van Bladel, Kevin, “Heavenly cords and prophetic authority in the Qur’an and its Late Antique context”, Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, 70:223-246, p.241, Cambridge University Press, 2007</ref>


Earlier in the same paper, Van Bladel describes how Christian theologians in the region of Syria in the sixth century CE shared the view that the Earth was flat and the heaven, or series of heavens was like a dome or tent above the Earth, based on their reading of the Hebrew and New Testament scriptures. This was a rival view to that of the churchmen of Alexandria who supported the Aristotelian-Ptolemaic view of a spherical Earth surrounded by spinning celestial spheres. See the footnote below<ref name="KVB">ibid. pp.224-226. Here are some more excerpts:
In the same paper, Van Bladel describes how Christian theologians in the region of Syria in the sixth century CE shared the view that the Earth was flat and the heaven, or series of heavens was like a dome or tent above the Earth, based on their reading of the Hebrew and New Testament scriptures. This was a rival view to that of the churchmen of Alexandria who supported the Aristotelian-Ptolemaic view of a spherical Earth surrounded by spinning celestial spheres. See the footnote below<ref name="KVB">ibid. pp.224-226. Here are some more excerpts:
<BR>
<BR>
{{Quote||Entering into the debate was John Philoponus, a Christian philosopher of sixth-century Alexandria, who wrote his commentary on Genesis to prove, against earlier, Antiochene, theologians like Theodore of Mopsuestia, that the scriptural account of creation described a spherical geocentric world in accord with the Ptolemaic cosmology. [...]
{{Quote||Entering into the debate was John Philoponus, a Christian philosopher of sixth-century Alexandria, who wrote his commentary on Genesis to prove, against earlier, Antiochene, theologians like Theodore of Mopsuestia, that the scriptural account of creation described a spherical geocentric world in accord with the Ptolemaic cosmology. [...]
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</ref> for excerpts of that chapter, which he summarises by saying:
</ref> for excerpts of that chapter, which he summarises by saying:


{{Quote||Clearly the Ptolemaic cosmology was not taken for granted in the Aramaean part of Asia in the sixth century. It was, rather, controversial.<ref name="KVB"></ref>}}
"Clearly the Ptolemaic cosmology was not taken for granted in the Aramaean part of Asia in the sixth century. It was, rather, controversial."<ref name="KVB2"></ref>


David A. King writes:
David A. King writes:


{{Quote||The Arabs of the Arabian peninsula before Islam possessed a simple yet developed astronomical folklore of a practical nature. This involved a knowledge of the risings and settings of stars, associated in particular with the cosmical setting of groups of stars and simultaneous heliacal risings of others, which marked the beginning of periods called naw’, plural anwā’. […] Ptolemy’s Almagest was translated at least five times in the late eighth and ninth centuries. The first was a translation into Syriac and the others into Arabic, the first two under Caliph al-Ma’mūn in the middle of the first half of the ninth century, and the other two (the second an improvement of the first) towards the end of that century […] In this way Greek planetary models, uranometry and mathematical methods came to the attention of the Muslims.<ref>King, David A., “Islamic Astronomy”, In Astronomy Before the Telescope, Ed. Christopher Walker, p.86, London: British Museum Press, 1996</ref>}}
"The Arabs of the Arabian peninsula before Islam possessed a simple yet developed astronomical folklore of a practical nature. This involved a knowledge of the risings and settings of stars, associated in particular with the cosmical setting of groups of stars and simultaneous heliacal risings of others, which marked the beginning of periods called naw’, plural anwā’. […] Ptolemy’s Almagest was translated at least five times in the late eighth and ninth centuries. The first was a translation into Syriac and the others into Arabic, the first two under Caliph al-Ma’mūn in the middle of the first half of the ninth century, and the other two (the second an improvement of the first) towards the end of that century […] In this way Greek planetary models, uranometry and mathematical methods came to the attention of the Muslims."<ref>King, David A., “Islamic Astronomy”, In Astronomy Before the Telescope, Ed. Christopher Walker, p.86, London: British Museum Press, 1996</ref>
 
Hoskin and Gingerich  say:
 
{{Quote||In 762 [Muhammad’s] successors in the Middle East founded a new capital, Baghdad, by the river Tigris at the point of nearest approach of the Euphrates, and within reach of the Christian physicians of Jundishapur. Members of the Baghdad court called on them for advice, and these encounters opened the eyes of prominent Muslims to the existence of a legacy of intellectual treasures from Antiquity - most of which were preserved in manuscripts lying in distant libraries and written in a foreign tongue. Harun al-Rashid (caliph from 786) and his successors sent agents to the Byzantine empire to buy Greek manuscripts, and early in the ninth century a translation centre, the House of Wisdom, was established in Baghdad by the Caliph al-Ma’mun. […] Long before translations began, a rich tradition of folk astronomy already existed in the Arabian peninsula. This merged with the view of the heavens in Islamic commentaries and treatises, to create a simple cosmology based on the actual appearances of the sky and unsupported by any underlying theory.''"
<ref>Hoskin, Michael and Gingerich, Owen, “Islamic Astronomy” in The Cambridge Concise History of Astronomy, Ed. M. Hoskin, p.50-52, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1999</ref>}}
 
==Flat Earth(s) in hadith collections==
 
The next few sections are about evidence of a commonplace flat Earth belief among the earliest Muslims (it omits evidence from the Qur'an itself, as per the purpose of this article stated in the introduction).
 
Two easy ways to demonstrate that at least a large number of the earliest Muslims imagined the Earth to be flat are to look at hadiths and tafsirs. For the purposes of this article, it matters little whether the hadiths are authentic or not; either way they demonstrate beliefs of early Muslims.


{{Quote|{{Bukhari|3|43|634}}|Narrated Salim's father (i.e. `Abdullah):
Hoskin and Gingerich say:


The Prophet said, "Whoever takes a piece of the land of others unjustly, he will sink down the seven earths on the Day of Resurrection."}}
"In 762 [Muhammad’s] successors in the Middle East founded a new capital, Baghdad, by the river Tigris at the point of nearest approach of the Euphrates, and within reach of the Christian physicians of Jundishapur. Members of the Baghdad court called on them for advice, and these encounters opened the eyes of prominent Muslims to the existence of a legacy of intellectual treasures from Antiquity - most of which were preserved in manuscripts lying in distant libraries and written in a foreign tongue. Harun al-Rashid (caliph from 786) and his successors sent agents to the Byzantine empire to buy Greek manuscripts, and early in the ninth century a translation centre, the House of Wisdom, was established in Baghdad by the Caliph al-Ma’mun. […] Long before translations began, a rich tradition of folk astronomy already existed in the Arabian peninsula. This merged with the view of the heavens in Islamic commentaries and treatises, to create a simple cosmology based on the actual appearances of the sky and unsupported by any underlying theory."<ref>Hoskin, Michael and Gingerich, Owen, “Islamic Astronomy” in The Cambridge Concise History of Astronomy, Ed. M. Hoskin, p.50-52, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1999</ref>
 
This next hadith is on the same topic. It is graded daif (weak), but shows what some early Muslims (if not actually Muhammad) thought about the world:
 
{{Quote|{{Al Tirmidhi|47|6|44|3298}}|...Then he said: ‘Do you know what is under you?’ They said: ‘Allah and His Messenger know better.’ He said: ‘Indeed it is the earth.’ Then he said: ‘Do you know what is under that?’ They said: ‘Allah and His Messenger know better.’ He said: ‘Verily, below it is another earth, between the two of which is a distance of five-hundred years.’ Until he enumerated seven earths: ‘Between every two earths is a distance of five-hundred years.’...}}
 
The following hadith is graded Sahih by Dar-us-Salam (Hafiz Zubair 'Ali Za'i) and has a chain of narration graded as Sahih (authentic) by al-Albani. It is from Sunan Abu Dawud, book XXV - Kitab Al-Ahruf Wa Al-Qira’at (Book of Dialects and Readings Of The Qur’an):
 
{{Quote|{{Abudawud||4002|darussalam}}|Narrated Abu Dharr:
 
I was sitting behind the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets ? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water (Hamiyah).}}
 
{{Quote|{{Muslim|1|297}}|It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one day said:
 
'''Do you know where the sun goes?''' They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: '''Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place''' and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything ( unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: '''Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting.''' The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.<ref>For the Arabic, see [http://sunnah.com/muslim/1/306 sunnah.com] or #159: [http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=192&TOCID=81&BookID=25&PID=299 hadith.al-islam.com]</ref>}}
 
Notice that it says, "from its rising place" (min matli'iha مَطْلِعِهَا ), and "from the place of your setting" (min maghribiki مِنْ مَغْرِبِكِ). The sun is commanded to go somewhere – it cannot be claimed that this is an idiomatic way of commanding the Earth to rotate, nor that the words mean the east and west here (despite mistranslations of similar hadiths), not least because the words al mashriq and al maghrib would have been used for that purpose and without the possessive suffixes. The words used in this hadith must refer to the sun’s rising and setting places - it is pure nonsense to claim otherwise.
 
The following hadith, unless it is allegorised to death, clearly indicates a flat earth belief where night occurs at the same time for everyone on Earth:
{{Quote|{{Muslim|4|1657}}|Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:
 
Allah descends every night to the lowest heaven '''when one-third of the first part of the night is over''' and says: I am the Lord; I am the Lord: who is there to supplicate Me so that I answer him? Who is there to beg of Me so that I grant him? Who is there to beg forgiveness from Me so that I forgive him? '''He continues like this till the day breaks.'''}}
 
 
{{Quote|{{Muslim|41|6904}}|Thauban reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake. And I have seen its eastern and western ends….}}
 
{{Quote|{{Ibn Majah|25|4|25|2921}}|It was narrated from Sahl bin Sa’d As-Sa’idi that the Messenger of Allah said:
“There is no (pilgrim) who recites the Talbiyah but that which is to his right and left also recites it, rocks and trees and hills, to the farthest ends of the earth in each direction, from here and from there.”}}


==Flat Earth in Tafsirs==
==Flat Earth in Tafsirs==
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In the tafsir of al-Tabari (b. 224 AH / 839 CE)  for {{Quran|18|86}}, we see the following remarks about the nature of the spring into which the sun sets. The similar sounding words hami'ah (muddy) and hamiyah (hot) seem to have become confused at some point:
In the tafsir of al-Tabari (b. 224 AH / 839 CE)  for {{Quran|18|86}}, we see the following remarks about the nature of the spring into which the sun sets. The similar sounding words hami'ah (muddy) and hamiyah (hot) seem to have become confused at some point:


{{Quote|1=[http://quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=13&Page=1 Tafsir al-Tabari for verse 18:86]|2=
{{Quote-text|1=[http://quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=13&Page=1 Tafsir al-Tabari for verse 18:86]|2=The meaning of the Almighty’s saying, ‘Until he reached the place of the setting of the sun he found it set in a spring of murky water,’ is as follows:
الْقَوْل فِي تَأْوِيل قَوْله تَعَالَى : { حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ مَغْرِب الشَّمْس وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُب فِي عَيْن حَمِئَة }
 
يَقُول تَعَالَى ذِكْره : { حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغَ } ذُو الْقَرْنَيْنِ { مَغْرِب الشَّمْس وَجَدَهَا تَغْرُب فِي عَيْن حَمِئَة } , فَاخْتَلَفَتْ الْقُرَّاء فِي قِرَاءَة ذَلِكَ , فَقَرَأَهُ بَعْض قُرَّاء الْمَدِينَة وَالْبَصْرَة : { فِي عَيْن حَمِئَة } بِمَعْنَى : أَنَّهَا تَغْرُب فِي عَيْن مَاء ذَات حَمْأَة , وَقَرَأَتْهُ جَمَاعَة مِنْ قُرَّاء الْمَدِينَة , وَعَامَّة قُرَّاء الْكُوفَة : " فِي عَيْن حَامِيَة " يَعْنِي أَنَّهَا تَغْرُب فِي عَيْن مَاء حَارَّة . وَاخْتَلَفَ أَهْل التَّأْوِيل فِي تَأْوِيلهمْ ذَلِكَ عَلَى نَحْو اِخْتِلَاف الْقُرَّاء فِي قِرَاءَته
 
The meaning of the Almighty’s saying, ‘Until he reached the place of the setting of the sun he found it set in a spring of murky water,’ is as follows:


When the Almighty says, ‘Until he reached,’ He is addressing Zul-Qarnain. Concerning the verse, ‘the place of the setting of the sun he found it set in a spring of murky water,’ the people differed on how to pronounce that verse. Some of the people of Madina and Basra read it as ‘Hami’a spring,’ meaning that the sun sets in a spring that contains mud. While a group of the people of Medina and the majority of the people of Kufa read it as, ‘Hamiya spring’ meaning that the sun sets in a spring of warm water. The people of commentary have differed on the meaning of this depending on the way they read the verse.}}
When the Almighty says, ‘Until he reached,’ He is addressing Zul-Qarnain. Concerning the verse, ‘the place of the setting of the sun he found it set in a spring of murky water,’ the people differed on how to pronounce that verse. Some of the people of Madina and Basra read it as ‘Hami’a spring,’ meaning that the sun sets in a spring that contains mud. While a group of the people of Medina and the majority of the people of Kufa read it as, ‘Hamiya spring’ meaning that the sun sets in a spring of warm water. The people of commentary have differed on the meaning of this depending on the way they read the verse.}}


So he says of the Basra version:  
So he says of the Basra version:


"بـمعنى: أنها تغرب فـي عين ماء ذات حمأة"  
"بـمعنى: أنها تغرب فـي عين ماء ذات حمأة"  
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He goes on to quote various opinions such as Ibn 'Abbas, that the sun sets in black mud:  
He goes on to quote various opinions such as Ibn 'Abbas, that the sun sets in black mud:  


{{Quote|1=[http://quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=13&Page=1 Tafsir al-Tabari for verse 18:86]|2=
{{Quote-text|1=[http://quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=13&Page=1 Tafsir al-Tabari for verse 18:86]|2=حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّد بْن عَبْد الْأَعْلَى , قَالَ : ثنا مَرْوَان بْن مُعَاوِيَة , عَنْ وَرْقَاء , قَالَ : سَمِعْت سَعِيد بْن جُبَيْر ,  
حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّد بْن عَبْد الْأَعْلَى , قَالَ : ثنا مَرْوَان بْن مُعَاوِيَة , عَنْ وَرْقَاء , قَالَ : سَمِعْت سَعِيد بْن جُبَيْر ,  
قَالَ : كَانَ اِبْن عَبَّاس يَقْرَأ هَذَا الْحَرْف { فِي عَيْن حَمِئَة }
قَالَ : كَانَ اِبْن عَبَّاس يَقْرَأ هَذَا الْحَرْف { فِي عَيْن حَمِئَة }
   
   
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Others said: it disappears (تَغِيب) in a hot spring.}}
Others said: it disappears (تَغِيب) in a hot spring.}}


From these comments and narrations in al-Tabari's tafsir, we can reasonably conclude that many, and perhaps all, of the earliest Muslims took verse 18:86 to mean that the sun actually sets in a spring and thus that the Earth is flat.
From these comments and narrations in al-Tabari's tafsir, we can reasonably conclude that many, and perhaps all, of the earliest Muslims took verse 18:86 to mean that the sun actually sets in a spring and thus that the Earth is flat.  


If the reader wishes to explore this sub-topic further, they can see how al-Tabari in his ''History of the Prophets and Kings'', and al-Baydawi in his tafsir mention the opinion that the sun has 360 springs into which it can set, and the pre-Islamic Arab poems on the same topic in the article [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dhul-Qarnayn_and_the_Sun_Setting_in_a_Muddy_Spring_-_Part_One#Compatibility_with_contemporary_beliefs Dhu'l Qarnayn and the Sun Setting in a Muddy Spring].
If the reader wishes to explore this sub-topic further, they can see how al-Tabari in his ''History of the Prophets and Kings'', and al-Baydawi in his tafsir mention the opinion that the sun has 360 springs into which it can set, and the pre-Islamic Arab poems on the same topic in the article [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dhul-Qarnayn_and_the_Sun_Setting_in_a_Muddy_Spring_-_Part_One#Compatibility_with_contemporary_beliefs Dhu'l Qarnayn and the Sun Setting in a Muddy Spring].
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In his tafsir for {{Quran|2|22}}, al-Tabari includes narrations from some of the earliest Muslims about the sky being a dome or ceiling over the Earth:
In his tafsir for {{Quran|2|22}}, al-Tabari includes narrations from some of the earliest Muslims about the sky being a dome or ceiling over the Earth:


{{Quote|1=[http://quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=13&Page=1 Tafsir al-Tabari for 2:22]<BR>See also the English translation from [https://islaambooks.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/the-commentary-on-the-quran-volume-i-tafsir-al-tabari.pdf J. Cooper's abridged translation of Tafsir al-Tabari]<ref>The commentary on the Qur'an, by Abu Ja'far Muhammad b. Jarir al- Tabari ; being an abridged translation of Jami' al-bayan 'an ta'wil ay al-Qur'an, with an introduction and notes by J. Cooper, general editors, W.F. Madelung, A. Jones. Oxford University Press, 1987. p.164</ref>|2=
{{Quote-text|1=[http://quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=13&Page=1 Tafsir al-Tabari for 2:22]|2=حَدَّثَنِي مُوسَى بْن هَارُونَ , قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا عَمْرو بْن حَمَّاد , قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا أَسْبَاط , عَنْ السُّدِّيّ فِي خَبَر ذَكَرَهُ , عَنْ أَبِي مَالِك , وَعَنْ أَبِي صَالِح , عَنْ ابْن عَبَّاس , وَعَنْ مُرَّة , عَنْ ابْن مَسْعُود وَعَنْ نَاس مِنْ أَصْحَاب النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : { وَالسَّمَاء بِنَاء } , فَبِنَاء السَّمَاء عَلَى الْأَرْض كَهَيْئَةِ الْقُبَّة , وَهِيَ سَقْف عَلَى الْأَرْض .وَحَدَّثَنَا بِشْر بْن مُعَاذ , قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا يَزِيد , عَنْ سَعِيد , عَنْ قَتَادَةَ فِي قَوْل اللَّه { وَالسَّمَاء بِنَاء } قَالَ : جَعَلَ السَّمَاء سَقْفًا لَك .
حَدَّثَنِي مُوسَى بْن هَارُونَ , قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا عَمْرو بْن حَمَّاد , قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا أَسْبَاط , عَنْ السُّدِّيّ فِي خَبَر ذَكَرَهُ , عَنْ أَبِي مَالِك , وَعَنْ أَبِي صَالِح , عَنْ ابْن عَبَّاس , وَعَنْ مُرَّة , عَنْ ابْن مَسْعُود وَعَنْ نَاس مِنْ أَصْحَاب النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : { وَالسَّمَاء بِنَاء } , فَبِنَاء السَّمَاء عَلَى الْأَرْض كَهَيْئَةِ الْقُبَّة , وَهِيَ سَقْف عَلَى الْأَرْض .وَحَدَّثَنَا بِشْر بْن مُعَاذ , قَالَ : حَدَّثَنَا يَزِيد , عَنْ سَعِيد , عَنْ قَتَادَةَ فِي قَوْل اللَّه { وَالسَّمَاء بِنَاء } قَالَ : جَعَلَ السَّمَاء سَقْفًا لَك .


Musa ibn Harun narrated and said that Amru ibn Hammad narrated and said that Asbath narrated from al-Suddi in the report mentioned, from Abu Malik, and from Abu Salih, from ibn 'Abbas and from Murrah, from ibn Masud and from people of the companions of the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him):
Musa ibn Harun narrated and said that Amru ibn Hammad narrated and said that Asbath narrated from al-Suddi in the report mentioned, from Abu Malik, and from Abu Salih, from ibn 'Abbas and from Murrah, from ibn Masud and from people of the companions of the prophet (peace and blessings be upon him):
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Ibn Kathir in his tafsir for {{Quran|13|2}} has yet more narrations of the sahabah and tabi'un (2nd generation) on this topic:
Ibn Kathir in his tafsir for {{Quran|13|2}} has yet more narrations of the sahabah and tabi'un (2nd generation) on this topic:


{{Quote|1=[http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2321 Tafsir ibn Kathir for Qur'an 13:2]|2=Allah said next, (..without any pillars that you can see.) meaning, `there are pillars, but you cannot see them,' according to Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, and several other scholars. Iyas bin Mu`awiyah said, "The heaven is like a dome over the earth," meaning, without pillars. Similar was reported from Qatadah, and this meaning is better for this part of the Ayah, especially since Allah said in another Ayah, (He withholds the heaven from falling on the earth except by His permission.) 22:65 Therefore, Allah's statement, (..that you can see), affirms that there are no pillars. Rather, the heaven is elevated (above the earth) without pillars, as you see. This meaning best affirms Allah's ability and power.}}
{{Quote-text|1=[http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2321 Tafsir ibn Kathir for Qur'an 13:2]|2=Allah said next, (..without any pillars that you can see.) meaning, `there are pillars, but you cannot see them,' according to Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, Al-Hasan, Qatadah, and several other scholars. Iyas bin Mu`awiyah said, "The heaven is like a dome over the earth," meaning, without pillars. Similar was reported from Qatadah, and this meaning is better for this part of the Ayah, especially since Allah said in another Ayah, (He withholds the heaven from falling on the earth except by His permission.) 22:65 Therefore, Allah's statement, (..that you can see), affirms that there are no pillars. Rather, the heaven is elevated (above the earth) without pillars, as you see. This meaning best affirms Allah's ability and power.}}


===The Earth on the back of a whale===
===The Earth on the back of a whale===
Al-Tabari's tafsir contains other indications of a common flat Earth belief. For example, regarding {{Quran|68|1}}, which mysteriously starts with the Arabic letter nun, he (and many other tafsirs) records that one of the interpretations among sahabah such as ibn 'Abbas was that the 'nun' is a [[The Islamic Whale|whale on whose back the Earth is carried]] (other interpretations were that it was an inkwell, or a name of Allah). The evidence is extensively documented on other websites including narrations with sahih chains from the sahabah, so the interested reader is referred to them.<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVhsVjXJzKM Youtube.com] Islam & the whale that carries the Earth on its back - Video by TheMaskedArab</ref><ref>[https://answeringislamblog.wordpress.com/2016/10/19/muhammads-magical-mountain-one-whale-of-a-tale/ AnsweringIslamBlog.wordpress.com] - Muhammad's Magical Mountain: One Whale of a Tail!</ref><ref>[http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/whale_nun.htm Answering-Islam.com] - The Quran and The Shape of the Earth</ref>
Al-Tabari's tafsir contains other indications of a common flat Earth belief. For example, regarding {{Quran|68|1}}, which mysteriously starts with the Arabic letter nun, he (and many other tafsirs) records that one of the interpretations among sahabah such as ibn 'Abbas was that the 'nun' is a [[The Islamic Whale|whale on whose back the Earth is carried]] (other interpretations were that it was an inkwell, or a name of Allah). The evidence is extensively documented on other websites including narrations with sahih chains from the sahabah, so the interested reader is referred to them.<ref>[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVhsVjXJzKM Youtube.com] Islam & the whale that carries the Earth on its back - Video by TheMaskedArab</ref><ref>[https://answeringislamblog.wordpress.com/2016/10/19/muhammads-magical-mountain-one-whale-of-a-tale/ AnsweringIslamBlog.wordpress.com] - Muhammad's Magical Mountain: One Whale of a Tail!</ref><ref>[http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/whale_nun.htm Answering-Islam.com] - The Quran and The Shape of the Earth</ref>
==Relevant Quotations==
{{Quote|{{Quran|18|86}}| حتى اذا بلغ مغرب الشمس وجدها تغرب في عين حمئة ووجد عندها قوما قلنا ياذا القرنين اما ان تعذب واما ان تتخذ فيهم حسنا
Hatta itha balagha maghriba alshshamsi wajadaha taghrubu fee AAaynin hami-atin wawajada AAindaha qawman qulna ya tha alqarnayni imma an tuAAaththiba wa-imma an tattakhitha feehim husnan
Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.}}<br />
{{Quote|{{Bukhari|9|93|519}}|if you ask Allah for anything, ask Him for the Firdaus, for it is the last part of Paradise and the highest part of Paradise, and at its top there is the Throne of Beneficent, and from it gush forth the rivers of Paradise." [the word translated 'last' means middle].}}
<br />
{{Quote|{{Bukhari|3|43|634}}|Narrated Salim's father (i.e. `Abdullah):
The Prophet said, "Whoever takes a piece of the land of others unjustly, he will sink down the seven earths on the Day of Resurrection."}}
<br />
{{Quote|{{Al Tirmidhi|47|6|44|3298}}|...Then he said: ‘Do you know what is under you?’ They said: ‘Allah and His Messenger know better.’ He said: ‘Indeed it is the earth.’ Then he said: ‘Do you know what is under that?’ They said: ‘Allah and His Messenger know better.’ He said: ‘Verily, below it is another earth, between the two of which is a distance of five-hundred years.’ Until he enumerated seven earths: ‘Between every two earths is a distance of five-hundred years.’...}}
<br />
{{Quote|{{Abudawud||4002|darussalam}}|Narrated Abu Dharr:
I was sitting behind the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets ? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water (Hamiyah).}}
{{Quote|{{Muslim|1|297}}|It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one day said:
'''Do you know where the sun goes?''' They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: '''Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place''' and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything ( unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: '''Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting.''' The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.<ref>For the Arabic, see [http://sunnah.com/muslim/1/306 sunnah.com] or #159: [http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=192&TOCID=81&BookID=25&PID=299 hadith.al-islam.com]</ref>}}
<br />{{Quote|{{Muslim|4|1657}}|Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying:
Allah descends every night to the lowest heaven '''when one-third of the first part of the night is over''' and says: I am the Lord; I am the Lord: who is there to supplicate Me so that I answer him? Who is there to beg of Me so that I grant him? Who is there to beg forgiveness from Me so that I forgive him? '''He continues like this till the day breaks.'''}}
{{Quote|{{Muslim|41|6904}}|Thauban reported that Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Allah drew the ends of the world near one another for my sake. And I have seen its eastern and western ends….}}
{{Quote|{{Ibn Majah|25|4|25|2921}}|It was narrated from Sahl bin Sa’d As-Sa’idi that the Messenger of Allah said:
“There is no (pilgrim) who recites the Talbiyah but that which is to his right and left also recites it, rocks and trees and hills, to the farthest ends of the earth in each direction, from here and from there.”}}


==Apologetic Arguments==
==Apologetic Arguments==
 
===Narration of companions===
=== Narration of companions ===
Ibn Taymiyyah argued that the companions believed in "round heavens" as he explains ibn 'Abbas' account and others said regarding {{Quran|36|40}}
Ibn Taymiyyah argued that the companions believed in "round heavens" as he explains ibn 'Abbas' account and others said regarding {{Quran|36|40}}
{{Quote-text|al-Tabari and ibn Kathir Tafsirs for 36:40|فِي فَلْكَة كَفَلْكَةِ الْمِغْزَل
{{Quote-text|al-Tabari and ibn Kathir Tafsirs for 36:40|فِي فَلْكَة كَفَلْكَةِ الْمِغْزَل
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Ibn Taymiyyah's argument does not account for the shape of the Earth.
Ibn Taymiyyah's argument does not account for the shape of the Earth.
This evidence can be used as a foundation for other arguments concerning the flat Earth verses in the Qur'an: that they cause a justifiable suspicion that the author of the Qur'an was just as unaware as his nearby contemporaries about the shape of the Earth. It also supports the point that even if we supposed that its author was aware of a round Earth, it is a secondary major weakness for the Qur'an to use such language when it will inevitably encourage 7th century Muslims to maintain their false notion that the Earth is flat (and even some Muslims living many centuries later, such as al-Suyuti in his Tafsir al-Jalalyn, and ibn Kathir in his Tafsir<ref>See also ibn Kathir's tafsir for verses [http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=410 2:229], [http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2645&Itemid=76 21:32], [http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1487 36:38], and [http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2128&Itemid=97 41:9-12], in all of which he says the heavens are a dome or roof or like the floors of a building over the Earth</ref>).
==External links==
==External links==


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