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| {{Discussions}} | | {{Discussions}} |
| '''''This page is for discussions between editors. Visitors should use the [[WikiIslam:Discussions/Visitor Inquiries|visitors]] page. All new discussion topics should be created at the bottom of the page, below all previous discussions, and all messages should be [[WikiIslam:Signatures|signed]].''''' | | '''''This page is for discussions between editors. Visitors should use the [[WikiIslam:Discussions/Visitor Inquiries|visitors]] page. All new discussion topics should be created at the bottom of the page, below all previous discussions, and all messages should be [[WikiIslam:Signatures|signed]].''''' |
| <!-- DO NOT EDIT ABOVE THIS LINE --> | | <!-- DO NOT EDIT ABOVE THIS LINE -->==Womb sentence== |
| ==Create the Details article?==
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| I think its time to create the details article, What do you say?--[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:33, 11 March 2014 (PDT)
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| :I think it needs a language cleanup. I'll try to look at it and see what I can improve.
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| :One of the strongest cases on that page is the 5 pillars. Can you think of any other cases like these where the detail is seriously needed, is an important part of Islamic belief but is there in the Quran? Those would be very good additions to the page and are not as important as the other verses (stories with missing details e.g.) --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 17:22, 11 March 2014 (PDT)
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| ::I think there's probably a lot more that can be added (possibly after the article's creation, but preferably before) and I agree with Axius concerning the need of a language cleanup. I too will try to help with that in the next day or two. I would also say that the 5 pillars section needs to be redone to be consistent with the rest. So, IMO, it is not quite ready but it is getting close. Other than that; well done. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 22:04, 11 March 2014 (PDT)
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| :::I [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=WikiIslam:Sandbox/Qur%27anic_Claim_of_Having_Details&diff=105705&oldid=105634 added] some more verses for the claims of being detailed and made some headings. I found those additional verses [http://www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/islam/pillars/al-salat_%28P1192%29.html here] after searching for what Quran says about salat so I could add those verses. For now I just did this and will try to add salat verses related verses so match the other sections. A good compilation of Salat related verses has been done for us here: http://www.progressive-muslim.org/salat-prayer-quran.htm . A page like this can probably go in a Ref tag, and we can have some specific verses and for the rest we can give the reader the link in the Ref tag.
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| :::Saggy, my opinion is that new verses for missing details should not be added anymore unless they're really good. Instead the effort should be focused on finalizing this page. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 20:36, 12 March 2014 (PDT)
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| ::::Saggy, additions of new verses is fine but it may keep extending the time it may take for the article to be reviewed/finalized (just letting you know). You can keep adding the verses though I think thats fine. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 07:01, 15 March 2014 (PDT)
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| :::::I planned the order to be numerical so we start with chapter 2 and go to 113 :/ --[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 08:55, 15 March 2014 (PDT)
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| ::::::Oh ok. I [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=WikiIslam:Sandbox/Qur%27anic_Claim_of_Having_Details&diff=105829&oldid=105824 reverted] myself then. I think it should be revised so its categorized in the other sense. I think its more powerful to present "practices of Islam" in one section and laws in another etc. Do you disagree? OR, you can reorder them in the end when you're done. Another related point is that there are enough "stories" (fables) for now. It would be nice to have more incomplete details for other categories like "laws" or practices in Islam (charity, fasting, salat) etc. Or any new categories. But yes I do believe that presenting related categories is more powerful. We dont follow the chapter series anywhere on other pages because the verses are pretty random. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 09:04, 15 March 2014 (PDT)
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| :::::::Law? theres hardly any law to search for i think. some practices eg. pilgrimage are more detailed than the 1-line-stories so there may not be more practices to insert. Some are not story or anything categoryable eg. "We revealed the book and with it the balance". Where do they go in the event of separation?--[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:26, 15 March 2014 (PDT)
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| ::::::::[http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Sandbox/Qur%27anic_Claim_of_Having_Details#Thief.27s_Repentance Thief's repentance] is one example of a law/sharia issue, currently the only one though. The others can go in a "Miscellaneous/Other verses" section. I guess keep collecting and we can think about it in the end. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 11:38, 15 March 2014 (PDT)
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| I readied the prose, now create it or u want more verses?--[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 08:40, 20 March 2014 (PDT)
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| :I will read through it later and clean it up before creating it. There's enough content there for an initial article. But I also want to separate the 5 Pillars before that. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 09:35, 20 March 2014 (PDT)
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| ::2 pillars and ablution; and 1 or two more laws. Should they all go into one bunch? The Rest of the pillars have a decent amount of details so they may not go in.--[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:12, 20 March 2014 (PDT)
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| :::It's okay. I worked around it now. For Axius: concerning that progressive-muslim link; the translation they use is not accurate and distorts verses a lot. They're also Qur'anist apologists; their whole point is that the Qur'an is detailed, so I don't think it will benefit us from citing Qur'anist apologists as a reference. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 20:01, 20 March 2014 (PDT)
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| ::::Only 1 translator called 85;4 as fire.[http://islamawakened.com/quran/85/4/] it many not necessarily be the usual future hell. I gave the source from wikipedia. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 09:08, 22 March 2014 (PDT)
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| :::::If the lack of detail was based on a historical event, then this should have been mentioned. And if only one translator used the word fire in 85:4 then you should have called the section heading "Makers of the Pit", not "Makers of the Pit of Fire" (I will change this now). Because if the fire translation is accepted then it could be easily argued that this is a poetic way of saying sinners are making their own place in hell, so it's not the Qur'an's lack of detail that is the problem, but the interpretations. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 10:02, 22 March 2014 (PDT)
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| ::::::Saggy, why are you rushing everything and only making a half-hearted attempt at creating a decent article? Axius may disagree with me, and I'm not trying to discourage you, but my philosophy has always been, "if you're not going to do something properly, then don't do it at all". It is this that has led to us weeding out most of the weak articles and deleting them, resulting in a very high-quality wiki with a reputation for its accurate and articulate content. But when it comes to you, even your talk page messages are so rushed that it makes them hard to understand.
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| ::::::See [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=WikiIslam:Sandbox/Qur%27anic_Claim_of_Having_Details&oldid=106203#Blowing_on_Knots this section] called "Blowing on Knots" that you wrote. You say about [http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/quran/verses/113-qmt.php#113.001 Qur'an 113:1-4] that, ''"One cannot understand who are those who blow on knots and why."'' This could be easily refuted by apologists. All they have to do is click on our verse reference that goes to the USC-MSA site an see that both of the other translators render it as ''"those who practise secret arts"'' and ''"the evil of malignant witchcraft"''. Then they can claim that WikiIslam are dishonest and are simply choosing the 1 translation that is most ambiguous and suited to "their agenda". Looking at the multiple translations available at [http://islamawakened.com/quran/113/4/default.htm islamawakened], most translators render it as something to do with witchcraft.
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| ::::::I've now fixed that by removing the text you wrote and replacing it with, ''"Many translators identify those who blow on knots as "those who practice secret arts" or witchcraft, but this information is not found within the actual Qur'anic text. Others choose to translate it accurately as "those who blow on knots", which makes it impossible to identify who these people are and why they would do such a thing."'' But you were obviously aware of the situation (since you chose the 1 translation of the three that only mentions knots) so why did you not think to add this to the article? It was the same thing Qur'an 85:4 (discussed above this message). If you were aware of the uncertainty behind the meaning of this verse being discused by Muslim scholars so it confirms the fact that this verse lacks detail, why did you fail to mention it? You are rushing just to throw articles out there and this is resulting in your work being weak or incomprehensible. This is not how we do things. We do not choose quantity over quality. That may have been the case 5 years ago but not today.
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| ::::::So can you please try to adjust you editing style accordingly? [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 08:32, 23 March 2014 (PDT)
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| :::::::ok. But I bet those claims against this site will never go away.--[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 09:52, 23 March 2014 (PDT)
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| ::::::::Thanks, Saggy. Of course. We know these claims will never go away. We are not doing it for those apologists who make these claims. We are doing it for all those people (Muslim and non-Muslim) who use us to learn about Islam and trust us for our accuracy. We need to be thorough and clear enough so that they have the information available to see that we are correct. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 10:05, 23 March 2014 (PDT)
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| :::::::::I agree with what Sahab said and in particular ''"We do not choose quantity over quality."''. As we can see Sahab did a lot of work [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=WikiIslam:Sandbox/Qur%27anic_Claim_of_Having_Details&offset=&limit=250&action=history] on the Details article. Thanks for that Sahab. Saggy please note Sahab's recommendations.
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| :::::::::Anyone can make any number of Sandbox articles, whether they're of poor or good quality. Picking those sandbox articles and finalizing them is entirely optional and is up to other users.
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| :::::::::So Saggy if you can do a good job in the Sandbox article, it makes it more likely that others will work on it and finalize the article. If its too difficult others can just add it to the [[tasks]] page to work on it in the future. If its added there, you can see that the tasks page contains lots of tasks so it will likely be a long time before anyone works on it. I would advise you to keep working on Sandbox articles as you have done but if you ask people to finalize it and it needs a lot of work, you can expect a reply like ''"it needs a lot of work (for example, X, Y Z) and at the moment I'm unable to work on it"''. In that case you can keep working on the article to the best of your ability (and make it rebuttal proof as best as you can). It can be added to the Tasks page if it needs a lot of fixing up. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 17:27, 24 March 2014 (PDT)
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| ==Womb sentence== | |
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| [http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/228/default.htm Here] see its second sentence. does it make enough of sense? some stray translator calls it "hiding pregnancy," but is it really something that can be hidden over time? especially in those old days? If it is unclear, it should go into some article.--[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:46, 20 March 2014 (PDT) | | [http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/2/228/default.htm Here] see its second sentence. does it make enough of sense? some stray translator calls it "hiding pregnancy," but is it really something that can be hidden over time? especially in those old days? If it is unclear, it should go into some article.--[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:46, 20 March 2014 (PDT) |