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User:CPO675/Sandbox 1: Difference between revisions
→Problems with miracle claim
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===== Problems with miracle claim ===== | ===== Problems with miracle claim ===== | ||
Critics point to | Critics point to issues with inserting this is a scientific miracle (and even scientifically accurate): | ||
# Firstly as with all claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clear<nowiki/>ly described a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into several typical categories used for these claims such as selective literalism, de-historicization and pseudo-corelation (''see [[Scientific Miracles in the Quran]]''), taking advantage of ambiguity in language to fit a modern reading.. | # Firstly as with all claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clear<nowiki/>ly described a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into several typical categories used for these claims such as selective literalism, de-historicization and pseudo-corelation (''see [[Scientific Miracles in the Quran]]''), taking advantage of ambiguity in language to fit a modern reading.. | ||
# The idea of the density of salt water being more than freshwater, separating the two was already known at least by the time of Aristotle ''(382 BC to 322 BC)''; ''“The drink''<nowiki/>''able, sweet water,'' ''l of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.”'''''<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref> ''' | # The idea of the density of salt water being more than freshwater, separating the two was already known at least by the time of Aristotle ''(382 BC to 322 BC)''; ''“The drink''<nowiki/>''able, sweet water,'' ''l of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.”'''''<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref> ''' | ||
# This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sa<nowiki/>iling nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as humans have sailed since ancient times,<ref>''[https://www.bu.edu/archaeology/files/2016/05/Ancient-mariners-may-have-set-sail-130000-years-ago-_-Register-_-The-Times-The-Sunday-Times.pdf Ancient mariners may have set sail 130,000 years ago].'' ARCHAEOLOGY. The Times. Norman Hammond. 2016. Boston University Archive</ref> and the colours are often different (as seen in the image on this page), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier placed by God between the two waters. | # This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sa<nowiki/>iling nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as humans have sailed since ancient times,<ref>''[https://www.bu.edu/archaeology/files/2016/05/Ancient-mariners-may-have-set-sail-130000-years-ago-_-Register-_-The-Times-The-Sunday-Times.pdf Ancient mariners may have set sail 130,000 years ago].'' ARCHAEOLOGY. The Times. Norman Hammond. 2016. Boston University Archive</ref> and the colours are often different (as seen in the image on this page), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier placed by God between the two waters. | ||
# This description also seems to imply there is no mixing between them at all, and could just as easily be written by someone believing | # This description also seems to imply there is no mixing between them at all, and could just as easily be written by someone incorrectly believing this. | ||
A deeper | A deeper a<nowiki/>nalysis can be found on the now defunct and archived former (''more polemical'') Wikiislam website' page on scientific miracles ''[https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran].'' | ||
===== Problems with general accuracy ===== | ===== Problems with general accuracy ===== | ||
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# There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. Salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them [https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html here] and on [https://www.coastalwiki.org/wiki/Salt_wedge_estuaries CostalWiki] for accessible science f<nowiki/>or the general reader), however despite what it may look like on the surface ''they all mix to varying degrees'' - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they are forbidden to pass. | # There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. Salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them [https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html here] and on [https://www.coastalwiki.org/wiki/Salt_wedge_estuaries CostalWiki] for accessible science f<nowiki/>or the general reader), however despite what it may look like on the surface ''they all mix to varying degrees'' - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they are forbidden to pass. | ||
# It does not use the word specifically for river (نھر "Nahar" - a word also used elsewhere in the Qur'an to describe a river) and sea, which would have been an accurate<nowiki/> way to describe it. | # It does not use the word specifically for river (نھر "Nahar" - a word also used elsewhere in the Qur'an to describe a river) and sea, which would have been an accurate<nowiki/> way to describe it. | ||
# If the mixing zones | # If the mixing zones aren't part of either 'sea' being mentioned but a 'barrier', then there are 3 bodie<nowiki/>s of water in this, and the language could reflect the mixing zo<nowiki/>ne by stating that one of them is made of both sweet and salty water (brackish water<ref>[https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est01_whatis.html#:~:text=The%20mixture%20of%20seawater%20and,%2C%20weather%2C%20or%20other%20factors. ''What is an Estuary?''] National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration</ref>). This also would separate it from the other <nowiki/>specific seas being referred to as we will discuss in the next section. | ||
==== '''Two actual seas''' ==== | ==== '''Two actual seas''' ==== | ||
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<big>(((EDITORS: Are you able to add the picture of picture 2 in the quote box below (as shown in the Islamic website please)))</big> | <big>(((EDITORS: Are you able to add the picture of picture 2 in the quote box below (as shown in the Islamic website please)))</big> | ||
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density. For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water. When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometres into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics. The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth | {{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density. For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water. When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometres into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics. The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth (see figure 13). | ||
[add picture 2 here] | [add picture 2 here] | ||
Figure 13: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.)</b> (Click on the image to enlarge it.)}} | <b>Figure 13: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.)</b> (Click on the image to enlarge it.)}} | ||
===== Problems with miracle claim and general science ===== | ===== Problems with miracle claim and general science ===== | ||
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This likely originates from ancient Mesopotamian myths, such as the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14</ref> Wensinck explains,<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17</ref> "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". | This likely originates from ancient Mesopotamian myths, such as the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14</ref> Wensinck explains,<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17</ref> "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". | ||
Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative). Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, | Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due to a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative). Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, the verse in question is scientifically wrong. | ||
The | The view in its historical context is well summarised in Tommaso Tesei's 2015 article '''[https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context]''<nowiki/>', examining the Qur'ans verse on Moses meeting a servant at the meeting of the two seas, which he claims is influenced by a story of Alexander the Great (''see [[Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance]]''), which also features in this Surah. The main discussion is on verses: | ||
{{Quote|{{Quran|18|60-65}}|18:60 (Consider) when Moses said to his young companion, "I shall continue travelling until I reach the junction of the two seas or have travelled for many ages". 18:61 But when they reached the Junction, they forgot (about) their Fish, which took its course through the sea (straight) as in a tunnel. | {{Quote|{{Quran|18|60-65}}|18:60 (Consider) when Moses said to his young companion, "I shall continue travelling until I reach the junction of the two seas or have travelled for many ages". 18:61 But when they reached the Junction, they forgot (about) their Fish, which took its course through the sea (straight) as in a tunnel. | ||
18:62 When they had passed on (some distance), Moses said to his attendant: "Bring us our early meal; truly we have suffered much fatigue at this (stage of) our journey." 18:63 He replied: "Sawest thou (what happened) when we betook ourselves to the rock? I did indeed forget (about) the Fish: none but Satan made me forget to tell (you) about it: it took its course through the sea in a marvellous way!" 18:64 Moses said: "That was what we were seeking after:" So they went back on their footsteps, following (the path they had come). 18:65 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge.}} | 18:62 When they had passed on (some distance), Moses said to his attendant: "Bring us our early meal; truly we have suffered much fatigue at this (stage of) our journey." 18:63 He replied: "Sawest thou (what happened) when we betook ourselves to the rock? I did indeed forget (about) the Fish: none but Satan made me forget to tell (you) about it: it took its course through the sea in a marvellous way!" 18:64 Moses said: "That was what we were seeking after:" So they went back on their footsteps, following (the path they had come). 18:65 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge.}} | ||
The full article from Tommaso, which is recommended to read to understand the context, can be read in the link on JSTOR for free by making an account, which provides a full overview. | The full article from Tommaso, which is recommended to read to understand the context, can be read in the link on [https://www.jstor.org/ JSTOR] for free by making an account, which provides a full overview. | ||
The Quran states that Moses is able to reach “the junction of the two seas” (majmaʿ al-baḥrayni), where he meets a Servant of God. It states that he is able to reach it after hearing from his young attendant about the fish that they were carrying with them (for food) escaping. This is twice referred to, in Q18:61 and v63. In both cases the dynamic is described by exactly the same phrase, with v63 ending in ʿajaban, which is commonly translated as “wondrously” or “in a marvellous way,” and 'saraban', which has caused problems and disagreements among Muslim commentators: | The Quran states that Moses is able to reach “the junction of the two seas” (majmaʿ al-baḥrayni), where he meets a Servant of God. It states that he is able to reach it after hearing from his young attendant about the fish that they were carrying with them (for food) escaping. This is twice referred to, in Q18:61 and v63. In both cases the dynamic is described by exactly the same phrase, with v63 ending in ʿajaban, which is commonly translated as “wondrously” or “in a marvellous way,” and 'saraban', which has caused problems and disagreements among Muslim commentators: | ||