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User:CPO675/Sandbox 1: Difference between revisions
→A barrier between two seas and the cosmic oceans
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The first claim is around fresh water from rivers meeting seas/oceans of salt water, with the transition stage known as [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary estuaries]: | The first claim is around fresh water from rivers meeting seas/oceans of salt water, with the transition stage known as [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary estuaries]: | ||
<big>(((EDITORS: Are you able to add | <big>(((EDITORS: Are you able to add Picture 2 in the quote box below (as shown in the Islamic website please)))</big> | ||
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water. (see Figure 4) | {{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water. (see Figure 4) | ||
[add | [add Picture 2 here] | ||
<b>Figure 4: Longitudinal section showing salinity (parts per thousand ‰) in an estuary. We can see here the partition | <b>Figure 4: Longitudinal section showing salinity (parts per thousand ‰) in an estuary. We can see here the partition | ||
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===== Problems with miracle claim ===== | ===== Problems with miracle claim ===== | ||
There are big issues with claiming this is a scientific miracle (and even scientifically accurate): | |||
# Firstly as with all claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clear<nowiki/>ly described a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into several typical categories used for these claims such as selective literalism, de-historicization and pseudo-corelation (''see [[Scientific Miracles in the Quran]]''), taking advantage of ambiguity in language to fit a modern reading.. | # Firstly as with all claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clear<nowiki/>ly described a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into several typical categories used for these claims such as selective literalism, de-historicization and pseudo-corelation (''see [[Scientific Miracles in the Quran]]''), taking advantage of ambiguity in language to fit a modern reading.. | ||
# The idea of the density of salt water being more than freshwater, separating the two was already known at least by the time of Aristotle ''(382 BC to 322 BC)''; ''“The drink''<nowiki/>''able, sweet water,'' ''l of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.”'''''<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref> ''' | # The idea of the density of salt water being more than freshwater, separating the two was already known at least by the time of Aristotle ''(382 BC to 322 BC)''; ''“The drink''<nowiki/>''able, sweet water,'' ''l of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.”'''''<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref> ''' | ||
# This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sa<nowiki/>iling nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as humans have sailed since ancient times,<ref>''[https://www.bu.edu/archaeology/files/2016/05/Ancient-mariners-may-have-set-sail-130000-years-ago-_-Register-_-The-Times-The-Sunday-Times.pdf Ancient mariners may have set sail 130,000 years ago].'' ARCHAEOLOGY. The Times. Norman Hammond. 2016. Boston University Archive</ref> and the colours are often different (as seen in the image on this page), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier placed by God between the two waters. | # This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sa<nowiki/>iling nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as humans have sailed since ancient times,<ref>''[https://www.bu.edu/archaeology/files/2016/05/Ancient-mariners-may-have-set-sail-130000-years-ago-_-Register-_-The-Times-The-Sunday-Times.pdf Ancient mariners may have set sail 130,000 years ago].'' ARCHAEOLOGY. The Times. Norman Hammond. 2016. Boston University Archive</ref> and the colours are often different (as seen in the image on this page), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier placed by God between the two waters. | ||
# This description | # This description implies there is no mixing between them at all, and could just as easily be written by someone incorrectly believing this. | ||
A deeper a<nowiki/>nalysis can be found on the now defunct and archived former (''more polemical'') Wikiislam website' page on scientific miracles ''[https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran].'' | A deeper a<nowiki/>nalysis can be found on the now defunct and archived former (''more polemical'') Wikiislam website' page on scientific miracles ''[https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran].'' | ||
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Secondly, it states the verses not specifically mentioning sweet and salty waters are referring to different seas with different kinds of waters (again click the link to see the images): | Secondly, it states the verses not specifically mentioning sweet and salty waters are referring to different seas with different kinds of waters (again click the link to see the images): | ||
<big>(((EDITORS: Are you able to add | <big>(((EDITORS: Are you able to add Picture 3 in the quote box below (as shown in the Islamic website please)))</big> | ||
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density. For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water. When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometres into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics. The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth (see figure 13). | {{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density. For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water. When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometres into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics. The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth (see figure 13). | ||
[add | [add Picture 3 here] | ||
<b>Figure 13: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.)</b> (Click on the image to enlarge it.)}} | <b>Figure 13: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.)</b> (Click on the image to enlarge it.)}} | ||
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* Firstly, it is a leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two 'seas' mentioned in Quran 55:19-20 from the others, as they all use the same phrase to refer to a specific two seas it is implied the audience is already familiar with. | * Firstly, it is a leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two 'seas' mentioned in Quran 55:19-20 from the others, as they all use the same phrase to refer to a specific two seas it is implied the audience is already familiar with. | ||
* Quran 35:12 states ornaments for us to wear are from both seas, salty and sweet linking the coral and pearl this to the sweet and salty seas as repeated in verse 55:22. | * Quran 35:12 states ornaments for us to wear are from both seas, salty and sweet linking the coral and pearl this to the sweet and salty seas as repeated in verse 55:22. | ||
* Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them | * Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them means this is for two specific seas, while this phenomena occurs in many places, even the North Atlantic, South Atlantic the Pacific Oceans have different salt levels.<ref>Joseph L. Reid, [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0146631361900442 On the temperature, salinity, and density differences between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in the upper kilometre,] Deep Sea Research (1953), Volume 7, Issue 4, 1961, Pages 265-275, ISSN 0146-6313, <nowiki>https://doi.org/10.1016/0146-6313(61)90044-2</nowiki></ref> And there are more examples of aquatic sills<ref>[https://www.britannica.com/science/sill Sill.] Geology. Science & Tech. Britannica Entry.</ref>, with some notable examples given [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_sill here] - which does not match a single specific case as the definite article used in the Quran suggests. For vertically mixed zones where salinity changes rapidly, a pycnocline zone, and more specifically, a halocline zone<ref>''[https://www.britannica.com/science/halocline Halocline.]'' Oceanography. Science & Tech. Britannia Entry.</ref>, is always a mixture of fresh water and salt water - in fact it is a product of their mixing. | ||
* For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing, this is not true, as Piers Chapman of Texas A&M University writes on Waterencyclopedia<ref>[http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Ocean-Mixing.html ''Ocean Mixing.''] Water Encyclopaedia. ''Piers Chapman.'' </ref>: ''<nowiki/>'Mixing in the ocean occurs on several scales.. The best-known example of this process, known as salt fingering, occurs where very salty water from the Mediterranean outflow mixes into the North Atlantic... Most mixing, however, takes place on larger scales in response to forcing by the wind'.'' | * For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing, this is not true, as Piers Chapman of Texas A&M University writes on Waterencyclopedia<ref>[http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Ocean-Mixing.html ''Ocean Mixing.''] Water Encyclopaedia. ''Piers Chapman.'' </ref>: ''<nowiki/>'Mixing in the ocean occurs on several scales.. The best-known example of this process, known as salt fingering, occurs where very salty water from the Mediterranean outflow mixes into the North Atlantic... Most mixing, however, takes place on larger scales in response to forcing by the wind'.'' | ||