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User:CPO675/Sandbox 1: Difference between revisions
→A barrier between two seas
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# Intro | # Intro | ||
# What they Quran says | # What they Quran says - short paragraph on the science | ||
# Apologist claim? here or above the science? | # Apologist claim? here or above the science? | ||
# Why is it incorrect - the science and refutation of apologist claim. | |||
# refutation of apologist claim | # refutation of apologist claim | ||
# Why is it incorrect | # Why is it incorrect | ||
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=== Introduction === | === Introduction === | ||
The Quran refers to two different bodies of water, emphasising there is one sweet and one fresh, that there is a batter between | The Quran refers to two different bodies of water, emphasising there is one sweet and one fresh, that there is a batter between them. Both early (and medieval Muslims) (cite), and modern Academic scholarship<ref>Damien Janos (2012) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0048721X.2012.642573 Qur’ānic cosmography in its historical perspective: some notes on the formation of a religious worldview], Religion, 42:2, 215-231, DOI: 10.1080/0048721X.2012.642573</ref>, have identified this with an ancient belief of there being a cosmic ocean of water surrounding the world. | ||
Some modern Muslims have tried to reconcile the relevant verses with natural phenomena, including estuaries meeting the sea, and different seas having different salt levels. However critics do not believe the verses accurately describe this, and many actually conflict with the description. | |||
When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them. | When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them. | ||
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=== The Qur'an === | === The Qur'an === | ||
We are told that there are two seas(l-baḥrayni), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass. | We are told that there are two seas(l-baḥrayni), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will ''never'' be passed. | ||
{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}} | {{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}} | ||
{{Quran|55|22}} quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching. | {{Quran|55|22}} quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching. | ||
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{{Quote|{{Quran|27|61}}|Is He [not best] who made the earth a stable ground and placed within it rivers and made for it firmly set mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier? Is there a deity with Allah? [No], but most of them do not know.}} | {{Quote|{{Quran|27|61}}|Is He [not best] who made the earth a stable ground and placed within it rivers and made for it firmly set mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier? Is there a deity with Allah? [No], but most of them do not know.}} | ||
Another reference to "the two seas" (''l-baḥrayni'') is found in the story of Moses and his servant, where he meets a man (Al-Khidr) who has special knowledge of events that have not yet happened from god, and tests Moses to carry out seemingly immoral tasks without asking him why: | |||
Another reference to "the two seas" (''l-baḥrayni'') is found in the story of Moses and his servant, where a man (Al-Khidr) who has special knowledge of events that have not yet happened from god: | |||
{{Quote|{{Quran|18|60-61}}|And [mention] when Moses said to his servant, "I will not cease [traveling] until I reach the junction of the two seas or continue for a long period." But when they reached the junction between them, they forgot their fish, and it took its course into the sea, slipping away.}} | {{Quote|{{Quran|18|60-61}}|And [mention] when Moses said to his servant, "I will not cease [traveling] until I reach the junction of the two seas or continue for a long period." But when they reached the junction between them, they forgot their fish, and it took its course into the sea, slipping away.}} | ||
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The full story of Moses ad Al-Khidr can be found at the bottom of the page for context. | The full story of Moses ad Al-Khidr can be found at the bottom of the page for context. | ||
=== '''Apologists | === '''Apologists claims''' === | ||
Apologists claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them. | '''Estuaries and salt water''' | ||
Apologists claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them, and even that the descriptions show advanced knowledge of science that could not have been known to a human. You can see the images referenced in the [https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm link]. The first claim is around estuaries of fresh water meeting seas/oceans of salt water: | |||
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water.<b> (see Figure 4) | {{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water.<b> (see Figure 4) | ||
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This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation).[5]}} | This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation).[5]}} | ||
- in the above book, they have | - in the above book, they have changed it by adding the words “Zone of Separation” '''and “The partition”''' have been added on to Figure 4 by the apologists - the book itself does not claim such a thing. | ||
However critics point out, as above, that a partition zone is not an accurate way to describe a barrier, and that the seas do mix - they are constantly mixing - this water is called Brackish Water. This is changing the meaning of the words to fit a natural phenomena | |||
{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}} | |||
* As mentioned Many different types of estuaries, they all mix to varying degrees - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they cannot pass<nowiki/>https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html | |||
* In {{Quran|25|53}} We are told that there are two seas(l-baḥrayni), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass. Yet this happens in many places (i.e. more than two) all across the world - why would it be talking about two seas with the definite 'al' particle (arguably it happens with all sweet and salty water/less dense water). Why is would be talking about two specific bodies of water, which are repeatedly referred to when so may other things - this does make sense in its historical context | |||
* The sea isn't permanently there, they completely change over time. Even the estuaries didn't exist when the Earth was made, so God letting the two bodies going free and a permanent barrier if false. | |||
* It doesn't say riverنھر (Nahar) and sea, which would have been a more accurate way to describe it if the mixing zone isn't part of either sea being mentioned but a 'barrier' - ''although to be fair every large body of water was referred to using this word in classical Arabic''. Also arguably 3 bodies of water, it could have stated something along the lines of one is mixed blocking the others - which would have been a closer description to a barrier | |||
* Estuary water sweet and palatable or filled with dirt? Estuary water often is salty as well (not just sweet), and dirty. Not an accurate description<ref>[https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est01_whatis.html#:~:text=The%20mixture%20of%20seawater%20and,%2C%20weather%2C%20or%20other%20factors. What is an Estuary?] National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration</ref> | |||
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Anyone who rode over the seas could write the same thing assuming there is a barrier between the two seas | Anyone who rode over the seas could write the same thing assuming there is a barrier between the two seas | ||
A good easy to read guide on these issues for those interest is CostalWiki https://www.coastalwiki.org/wiki/Salt_wedge_estuaries | |||
'''Two actual seas''' | |||
* Leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two seas | |||
* s | |||
=== Refutation of the claim === | |||
*Problem - the seas do mix - get source, there is no barrier between them - the definition of a barrier is literally something that blocks (so has been stretched here) | |||
* Partition forbidden to pass - uses term for never - however entre sealine changes over time with rivers broken down and destroyed - and current 'seas' 'barrier' breaks down over time | |||
* This happens everywhere all across the world - why talking about two seas with 'al' particle (happens with all sweet and salty water/less dense water) - historical context | |||
*Doesn't say riverنھر (Nahar) - although to be fair every large body of water was referred to using this word in classical Arabic. A specific word for ocean or lake did not exist either. Also arguably 3 bodies of water, it could have stated one is mixed blocking the others - which would have been a closer description to a barrier | |||
*Salt vs seawater - is estuary water sweet and palatable or filled with dirt? | |||
*Much better ways to write this verse that would actually fit with the science (give examples) | |||
*Link historical context of premeal waters to the whale story too | |||
*Coral does not occur in fresh water, which causes coral bleaching <ref>[https://ocean.si.edu/ocean-life/invertebrates/corals-and-coral-reefs Corals and Coral Reefs] - Smithsonian Institution website</ref> | |||
*Scientific claim - Quran says absolutely nothing about different densities, hence no-one ever thought it did until many years after the discovery - Scientist William Hayes denouncing miracle claim | |||
The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedants of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature]]. | The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedants of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature]]. | ||