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User:CPO675/Sandbox 1: Difference between revisions
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=== '''Apologists claims''' === | === '''Apologists claims''' === | ||
Apologists claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them, and even that the descriptions show advanced knowledge of science that could not have been known to a human. You can see the images referenced in the [https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm link]. The first claim is around | ==== '''Estuaries and salt water''' ==== | ||
Apologists claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them, and even that the descriptions show advanced knowledge of science that could not have been known to a human. You can see the images referenced in the [https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm link] which are repeated on many Islamic websites. | |||
The first claim is around fresh water from rivers meeting seas/oceans of salt water, with the transition stage known as [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary estuaries]: | |||
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water.<b> (see Figure 4) | {{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water.<b> (see Figure 4) | ||
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This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation).[5]}} | This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation).[5]}} | ||
Note that in the above referenced claim in the book (''Introductory Oceanography, Thurman''), they have changed it by adding the words “Zone of Separation” '''and “The partition''' onto Figure 4 by the apologists - the book itself does not claim such a thing. | |||
However critics point out, as above, that a partition zone is not an accurate way to describe a barrier, and that the seas do mix - they are constantly mixing - this water is called Brackish Water. This is changing the meaning of the words to fit a natural phenomena | However critics point out, as above, that a partition zone is not an accurate way to describe a barrier in that it doesn't block the water, and that the seas do mix - they are constantly mixing - this water is called Brackish Water. This is changing the meaning of the words to fit a natural phenomena | ||
{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}} | {{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}} | ||
* This description could easily apply to someone sailing nearby or over one of these, | * This description could easily apply to someone sailing nearby or over one of these, as the colours are often different (as seen in the image X), leading people to assu<nowiki/>me there was an actual barrier between the two waters, and assuming they didn't mix - as there's no science about mixing bodies of water in the barrier stated in the Quran verses. Hence no-body was able to discover anything new from the verse, and as observable (and arguably incorrect as we will discuss below), it is certainly not a miracle. | ||
* | * Density of salt water is more than freshwater. This was first discovered by Aristotle. “The drinkable, sweet water, then, is light and is all of it drawn up: the salt <nowiki/>water is heavy and remains behind.” -Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC)<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref> | ||
* There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them [https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html here]), however despite what it may look like on<nowiki/> the surface they all mix to varying degrees - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they cannot pass<nowiki/>https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html | |||
* In {{Quran|25|53}} We are told that there are two seas(l-baḥrayni), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass. Yet this happens in many places (i.e. more than two) all across the world - why would it be talking about two seas with the definite 'al' particle (arguably it happens with all sweet and salty water/less dense water). Why is would be talking about two specific bodies of water, which are repeatedly referred to when so may other things - this does make sense in its historical context | * In {{Quran|25|53}} We are told that there are specifically the '''two seas(l-baḥrayni)''', one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass. Yet this happens in many places (i.e. more than two) all across the world - why would it be talking about two seas with the definite 'al' particle (arguably it happens with all sweet and salty water/less dense water). Why is would be talking about two specific bodies of water, which are repeatedly referred to when so may other things - this does make sense in its historical context | ||
* The sea isn't permanently there, they completely change over time. Even the estuaries didn't exist when the Earth was made, so God letting the two bodies going free and a permanent barrier if false. | * The sea isn't permanently there, they completely change over time. Even the estuaries didn't exist when the Earth was made, so God letting the two bodies going free and a permanent barrier if false. | ||
* It doesn't say riverنھر (Nahar) and sea, which would have been a more accurate way to describe it if the mixing zone isn't part of either sea being mentioned but a 'barrier' - ''although to be fair every large body of water was referred to using this word in classical Arabic''. Also arguably 3 bodies of water, it could have stated something along the lines of one is mixed blocking the others - which would have been a closer description to a barrier | * It doesn't say riverنھر (Nahar) and sea, which would have been a more accurate way to describe it if the mixing zone isn't part of either sea being mentioned but a 'barrier' - ''although to be fair every large body of water was referred to using this word in classical Arabic''. Also arguably 3 bodies of water, it could have stated something along the lines of one is mixed blocking the others - which would have been a closer description to a barrier | ||
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A good easy to read guide on these issues for those interest is CostalWiki https://www.coastalwiki.org/wiki/Salt_wedge_estuaries | A good easy to read guide on these issues for those interest is CostalWiki https://www.coastalwiki.org/wiki/Salt_wedge_estuaries | ||
==== '''Two actual seas''' ==== | |||
Secondly, it states: | |||
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density.1 For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water. When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometers into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics. The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth2 (see figure 13). | |||
* Leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two seas | Figure 13 (Click here to enlarge) | ||
* | |||
Figure 13: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)}} | |||
* Leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two 'seas' | |||
* Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them implies this is for two specific seas, while this phenomena occurs in many places, even the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans have different salt levels. | |||
* For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing , this is not true, as Piers Chapman - Oceanography - Texas A&M University writes in Water Encyclopaedia Ocean Mixing http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Ocean-Mixing.html | |||
*A | |||
=== Refutation of the claim === | === Refutation of the claim === | ||
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=== Other religions an cosmic waters === | === Other religions an cosmic waters === | ||
This may be compared to the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14</ref> Wensinck explains,<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17</ref> "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative). | This may be compared to the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14</ref> Wensinck explains,<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17</ref> "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative). | ||
== External links == | |||
* https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran - Previous Wikiislam page on this 'miracle' | |||
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9Voh0xLLUw&t=105s Waters that Never mix] - ''YouTube video'' | |||
== References == | |||