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User:CPO675/Sandbox 1: Difference between revisions
→Estuaries and salt water
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However critics point out, as above, that a partition zone is not an accurate way to describe a barrier in that it doesn't block the water, and that the seas do mix - they are constantly mixing - this water is called Brackish Water. This is changing the meaning of the words to fit a natural phenomena | However critics point out, as above, that a partition zone is not an accurate way to describe a barrier in that it doesn't block the water, and that the seas do mix - they are constantly mixing - this water is called Brackish Water. This is changing the meaning of the words to fit a natural phenomena - there is nothing mentioned about the scientific reasons for his (around different densities). A layman could see this and think God put a barrier was a good explanation: | ||
{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}} | {{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}} | ||
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# - such as this kind of sea https://ecobnb.com/blog/2018/11/denmark-two-seas/ - explore - two salty bodies of water? | # - such as this kind of sea https://ecobnb.com/blog/2018/11/denmark-two-seas/ - explore - two salty bodies of water? | ||
# Density of salt water is more than freshwater.<nowiki/> This was first discovered by Aristotle. “The drinkable, sweet water, then, is light and is all of it drawn up: the salt <nowiki/>water is heavy and remains behind.” -Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC)<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref> | # Density of salt water is more than freshwater.<nowiki/> This was first discovered by Aristotle. “The drinkable, sweet water, then, is light and is all of it drawn up: the salt <nowiki/>water is heavy and remains behind.” -Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC)<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref> | ||
# There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them [https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html here]), however despite what it may look like on<nowiki/> the surface they all mix to varying degrees - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they cannot pass<nowiki/>https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html | # There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them [https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html here]), however despite what it may look like on<nowiki/> the surface they all mix to varying degrees - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they cannot pass<nowiki/>https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html A pycnocline zone, and more specifically, a halocline zone, is always a mixture of fresh water and salt water. It is a product of their mixing. In case of salt water and fresh water, there cannot be density discontinuity. The later can only be present if two liquids are immiscible, for example water and oil. | ||
# In {{Quran|25|53}} We are told that there are specifically the '''two seas(l-baḥrayni)''', one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass. Yet this happens in many places (i.e. more than two) all across the world - why would it be talking about two seas with the definite 'al' particle (arguably it happens with all sweet and salty water/less dense water). Why is would be talking about two specific bodies of water, which are repeatedly referred to when so may other things - this does make sense in its historical context | # In {{Quran|25|53}} We are told that there are specifically the '''two seas(l-baḥrayni)''', one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass. Yet this happens in many places (i.e. more than two) all across the world - why would it be talking about two seas with the definite 'al' particle (arguably it happens with all sweet and salty water/less dense water). Why is would be talking about two specific bodies of water, which are repeatedly referred to when so may other things - this does make sense in its historical context | ||
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# It doesn't say riverنھر (Nahar) and sea, which would have been a more accurate way to describe it if the mixing zone isn't part of either sea being mentioned but a 'barrier' - ''although to be fair every large body of water was referred to using this word in classical Arabic''. Also arguably 3 bodies of water, it could have stated something along the lines of one is mixed blocking the others - which would have been a closer description to a barrier. Should describe one as a river in this case | # It doesn't say riverنھر (Nahar) and sea, which would have been a more accurate way to describe it if the mixing zone isn't part of either sea being mentioned but a 'barrier' - ''although to be fair every large body of water was referred to using this word in classical Arabic''. Also arguably 3 bodies of water, it could have stated something along the lines of one is mixed blocking the others - which would have been a closer description to a barrier. Should describe one as a river in this case | ||
# Estuary water sweet and palatable or filled with dirt? Estuary water often is salty as well (not just sweet), and dirty. Not an accurate description<ref>[https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est01_whatis.html#:~:text=The%20mixture%20of%20seawater%20and,%2C%20weather%2C%20or%20other%20factors. What is an Estuary?] National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration</ref> | # Estuary water sweet and palatable or filled with dirt? Estuary water often is salty as well (not just sweet), and dirty. Not an accurate description<ref>[https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est01_whatis.html#:~:text=The%20mixture%20of%20seawater%20and,%2C%20weather%2C%20or%20other%20factors. What is an Estuary?] National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration</ref> | ||
# | # | ||
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* Leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two 'seas' | * Leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two 'seas' | ||
* Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them implies this is for two specific seas, while this phenomena occurs in many places, even the North Atlantic, South Atlantic the Pacific Oceans have different salt levels.<ref>Joseph L. Reid, [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0146631361900442 On the temperature, salinity, and density differences between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in the upper kilometre,] Deep Sea Research (1953), Volume 7, Issue 4, 1961, Pages 265-275, ISSN 0146-6313, <nowiki>https://doi.org/10.1016/0146-6313(61)90044-2</nowiki></ref> | * Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them implies this is for two specific seas, while this phenomena occurs in many places, even the North Atlantic, South Atlantic the Pacific Oceans have different salt levels.<ref>Joseph L. Reid, [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0146631361900442 On the temperature, salinity, and density differences between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in the upper kilometre,] Deep Sea Research (1953), Volume 7, Issue 4, 1961, Pages 265-275, ISSN 0146-6313, <nowiki>https://doi.org/10.1016/0146-6313(61)90044-2</nowiki></ref> | ||
* A sill https://www.britannica.com/science/sill. An aquatic sill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_sill (containing other examples of sills) | |||
* For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing , this is not true, as Piers Chapman - Oceanography - Texas A&M University writes in Water Encyclopaedia Ocean Mixing http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Ocean-Mixing.html | * For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing , this is not true, as Piers Chapman - Oceanography - Texas A&M University writes in Water Encyclopaedia Ocean Mixing http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Ocean-Mixing.html | ||
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18:80 And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief. | 18:80 And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief. | ||
18:81 So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.}}Hadith on this verse including {{Bukhari|4|55|613}} | 18:81 So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.}}Hadith on this verse including {{Bukhari|4|55|613}} | ||
* Someone who has this foresight makes sense coming from god's sea - and disappears there after Moses keeps asking questions | * Someone who has this foresight inclusion - future events and human nature ([[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Predestination|predestination]]) (ship sinking, boy becoming an unbeliever, orphans finding treasure) makes sense coming from god's sea - and disappears there after Moses keeps asking questions - this makes sense with them coming from a supernatural cosmic ocean | ||
* Not actually named in Quran (only called a servant of God)- only hadith name him | * Not actually named in Quran (only called a servant of God)- only hadith name him | ||
* the [[The Islamic Whale|Islamic whale]] swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back | * the [[The Islamic Whale|Islamic whale]] swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back | ||
* (put this section below the Islamic views part)? | |||
=== Islamic Views === | === Islamic Views === | ||
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{{Quote|{{Muslim|40|6807}}|Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Saihan, Jaihan, Euphrates and Nile are all among the rivers of Paradise.}} | {{Quote|{{Muslim|40|6807}}|Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Saihan, Jaihan, Euphrates and Nile are all among the rivers of Paradise.}} | ||
From this Quran verse we see the highest heaven has a sea: | |||
{{Quote|{{Quran|11|7}}|It is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days—and His Throne was [then] upon the waters—that He may test you [to see] which of you is best in conduct. Yet if you say, ‘You will indeed be raised up after death,’ the faithless will surely say, ‘This is nothing but plain magic.’}} | {{Quote|{{Quran|11|7}}|It is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days—and His Throne was [then] upon the waters—that He may test you [to see] which of you is best in conduct. Yet if you say, ‘You will indeed be raised up after death,’ the faithless will surely say, ‘This is nothing but plain magic.’}}As well as a hadith in Sunan Ibn Majah's collection, which although is rated 'weak', show's early Muslim understanding of the verses sea in the sky, above the seventh heaven:{{Quote|{{Ibn Majah||1|1|193}}|"I was in Batha with a group of people, among them whom was the Messenger of Allah. A cloud passed over him, and he looked at it and said: 'What do you call this?' They said: 'Sahab (a cloud).' He said: 'And Muzn (rain cloud).' They said: 'And Muzn.' He said: 'And 'Anan (clouds).' Abu Bakr said: "They said: 'And 'Anan.'" He said: 'How much (distance) do you think there is between you and the heavens?' They said: 'We do not know.' He said: 'Between you and it is seventy-one, or seventy-two, or seventy-three years, and there is a similar distance between it and the heaven above it (and so on)' until he counted seven heavens. <b>'Then above the seventh heaven there is a sea, between whose top and bottom is a distance like that between one heaven and another.</b> Then above that there are eight (angels in the form of) mountain goats. The distance between their hooves and their knees is like the distance between one heaven and the next. Then on their backs is the Throne, and the distance between the top and the bottom of the Throne is like the distance between one heaven and another. Then Allah is above that, the Blessed and Exalted."}} | ||
'''Islamic Commentaries''' | '''Islamic Commentaries''' | ||