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==Scientific Errors== | ==Scientific Errors== | ||
Hi. That page uses title-case for capitalization of headings[http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Standardization#Section_headings]. And there should not be multiple Qur'an translations used to illustrate a single error (i.e choose only one translation from the USC site). Both those errors were in your first edit to the page but I fixed them[http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title= | Hi. That page uses title-case for capitalization of headings[http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Standardization#Section_headings]. And there should not be multiple Qur'an translations used to illustrate a single error (i.e choose only one translation from the USC site). Both those errors were in your first edit to the page but I fixed them[http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran&diff=102143&oldid=102140]. You have repeated those same errors in your second edit. You will have to fix them before your edits can be considered. Thanks. [[User:Sahabah|--Sahabah]] ([[User talk:Sahabah|talk]]) 13:27, 5 January 2014 (PST) | ||
:I've reverted your edit again. You are aware this talk page discussion has been initiated. If you do not understand something here, the answer is not to reinsert whatever was reverted with a summary saying "btw I don't understand". That's basically ignoring this talk page. If you don't understand something then ask. [[User:Sahabah|--Sahabah]] ([[User talk:Sahabah|talk]]) 19:07, 9 January 2014 (PST) | :I've reverted your edit again. You are aware this talk page discussion has been initiated. If you do not understand something here, the answer is not to reinsert whatever was reverted with a summary saying "btw I don't understand". That's basically ignoring this talk page. If you don't understand something then ask. [[User:Sahabah|--Sahabah]] ([[User talk:Sahabah|talk]]) 19:07, 9 January 2014 (PST) | ||
::Not much time . ok , what am I to do to caps? If u revert instead of correcting (which is a loss to the readers), others dont mind? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 02:48, 10 January 2014 (PST) | ::Not much time . ok , what am I to do to caps? If u revert instead of correcting (which is a loss to the readers), others dont mind? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 02:48, 10 January 2014 (PST) | ||
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hi Saggy, this Science error/Quran page is popular and is often linked to by people so its important for this page to be as strong as possible. Some errors are more obvious than others. Some only appear in one translation and so on. For example the Golden Calf statue verse that you added was great. It obviously goes against science and is a glaring error while some others are not that obvious. | hi Saggy, this Science error/Quran page is popular and is often linked to by people so its important for this page to be as strong as possible. Some errors are more obvious than others. Some only appear in one translation and so on. For example the Golden Calf statue verse that you added was great. It obviously goes against science and is a glaring error while some others are not that obvious. | ||
One idea I have is to keep the strongest errors at the top and the less obvious ones (or the ones that can be explained in some way by apologists) near the bottom in another section. I tried making some rules here: [[Talk:Scientific Errors in the | One idea I have is to keep the strongest errors at the top and the less obvious ones (or the ones that can be explained in some way by apologists) near the bottom in another section. I tried making some rules here: [[Talk:Scientific Errors in the Quran]] (draft). Let me know your thoughts. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 08:19, 1 February 2014 (PST) | ||
:How can we judge weakness? Its is everyones POV. EG Every claim about the sky is weak on its own. But when put together its a huge blunder. We already have sections for the branchs of science. At most we'll put weak claims at bottom of each section. of course we mustnt say - xyz is a weaker claim , we can try to explian it or justifiy it as much as possible..[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:52, 1 February 2014 (PST) | :How can we judge weakness? Its is everyones POV. EG Every claim about the sky is weak on its own. But when put together its a huge blunder. We already have sections for the branchs of science. At most we'll put weak claims at bottom of each section. of course we mustnt say - xyz is a weaker claim , we can try to explian it or justifiy it as much as possible..[[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 12:52, 1 February 2014 (PST) | ||
::Hi, I moved your comment back to keep it in one place. Some errors are present in Arabic and the translations, while others are present only in the translations. For example Constellations. Apologetist might say the Quran just means "collections of light" and yes these were made by Allah for humans (for example) and he was just talking in a general sense. A more glaring error is the Golden statue or mathematics of inheritance. So some are more obvious, the others are a little iffy and have some conditions. | ::Hi, I moved your comment back to keep it in one place. Some errors are present in Arabic and the translations, while others are present only in the translations. For example Constellations. Apologetist might say the Quran just means "collections of light" and yes these were made by Allah for humans (for example) and he was just talking in a general sense. A more glaring error is the Golden statue or mathematics of inheritance. So some are more obvious, the others are a little iffy and have some conditions. | ||
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::::Alright then fair enough unless anyone else has anything to add for improving the article. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 10:29, 2 February 2014 (PST) | ::::Alright then fair enough unless anyone else has anything to add for improving the article. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] ([[User talk:Axius|talk]]) 10:29, 2 February 2014 (PST) | ||
:::::I moved the one for constellation here on your page [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=User:Saggy/Sandbox_-_Issues_with_Quran_and_Hadith&diff=107464&oldid=106860]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 16:43, 15 May 2014 (PDT) | :::::I moved the one for constellation here on your page [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=User:Saggy/Sandbox_-_Issues_with_Quran_and_Hadith&diff=107464&oldid=106860]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 16:43, 15 May 2014 (PDT) | ||
:::::: Hi Saggy, I found some more miracles of floating boats: 2:164, 16:14, 42:32. Perhaps it should be mentioned that at Muhammad's time Archimedes law describing buoyancy was more than 8 centuries old. Shall I put it in? Also I added a remark about the missing leap year on Axius talk page. --[[User:PW. Jansen|PW. Jansen]] ([[User talk:PW. Jansen|talk]]) 22:18, 24 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
== Quran details == | == Quran details == | ||
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== Inheritance Laws == | == Inheritance Laws == | ||
I thought I'd ask you since you've been interested in the errors/contradictions topics. Inheritance laws ([[ | I thought I'd ask you since you've been interested in the errors/contradictions topics. Inheritance laws ([[Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran#Mathematical_Error_in_Hereditary_Laws]]) have had some responses like [http://www.khalidzaheer.com/qa/615] and [http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/the_inheritance_law__by_ansar_al__adl]. | ||
Do you know how to respond to these rebuttals and see if there's anything to investigate here? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 17:56, 12 March 2014 (PDT) | Do you know how to respond to these rebuttals and see if there's anything to investigate here? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 17:56, 12 March 2014 (PDT) | ||
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== Rain/miraculous == | == Rain/miraculous == | ||
This is another of those weaker errors [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/ | This is another of those weaker errors [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran#Rain_has_Miraculous_Effects]. | ||
: Remember He covered you with a sort of drowsiness, to give you calm as from Himself, and he caused rain to descend on you from heaven, to clean you therewith, to remove from you the stain of Satan, to strengthen your hearts, and to plant your feet firmly therewith. | : Remember He covered you with a sort of drowsiness, to give you calm as from Himself, and he caused rain to descend on you from heaven, to clean you therewith, to remove from you the stain of Satan, to strengthen your hearts, and to plant your feet firmly therewith. | ||
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== Moon Position == | == Moon Position == | ||
Once again the addition you added [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title= | Once again the addition you added [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran&curid=9078&diff=107595&oldid=107587] is not an error in my opinion. Its just describing what things look like to humans (aesthetically). The verse literally does not mean "the moon is placed between the seven layers". It is talking about what it looks like to humans. | ||
The seven layers is an error, that we know (and that error is present on the page I think) but the "moon is among them" just means what it appears to people on Earth. Lightyears if you see this, any thoughts on this addition? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 16:06, 23 May 2014 (PDT) | The seven layers is an error, that we know (and that error is present on the page I think) but the "moon is among them" just means what it appears to people on Earth. Lightyears if you see this, any thoughts on this addition? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 16:06, 23 May 2014 (PDT) | ||
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Google search for [https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=islam%20forbidden%20things&safe=off islam forbidden things] can also help. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 15:01, 5 June 2014 (PDT) | Google search for [https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=islam%20forbidden%20things&safe=off islam forbidden things] can also help. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 15:01, 5 June 2014 (PDT) | ||
:From the silliness page, [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Islamic_Silliness#Wicked_wigs], Wigs, One-shoe walks outlawed, Say no to green jars and white jars, Sinning with silverware, Allah likes sneezing but hates yawning, Fight polytheists by trimming moustache, Pus better than poetry, Allah curses tatooed women, Looking up during prayer may cause blindness. | |||
:Blackgammon [http://www.muslimconverts.com/Munajjid-books/forbiden.htm#67], "Playing with dice"--[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 16:39, 11 July 2014 (PDT) | |||
:: Search link for [http://sunnah.com/search/forbade "forbade"]. 1150 results. Other searches could be for words "haram", "outlawed", prohibited, "do not", "disallowed" etc--[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 20:01, 11 July 2014 (PDT) | |||
== Scientific errors - response blog == | == Scientific errors - response blog == | ||
Here's a blog that has some "refutations" of a small amount of errors. [http://quran-errors.blogspot.com/] These should be checked and used to further strengthen [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/ | Here's a blog that has some "refutations" of a small amount of errors. [http://quran-errors.blogspot.com/] These should be checked and used to further strengthen [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran our page] (without needing to specifically mention this blog). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 04:17, 14 June 2014 (PDT) | ||
:*'''Universe contracting/Heaven is from Smoke:''' Why talk about galaxys and gas clouds? The verse says earth and heaven were coming together (and talking to Allah). Earth is as old as Galaxies? Nope. | :*'''Universe contracting/Heaven is from Smoke:''' Why talk about galaxys and gas clouds? The verse says earth and heaven were coming together (and talking to Allah). Earth is as old as Galaxies? Nope. | ||
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::::::::By the way that blog link now has some kind of notice saying that the author is going to stop writing responses for now and write better responses later on. He says (the username is ' .. guy', so) that some of our error sections that he addressed were removed or edited in reaction to his content and I dont think thats true. If he's watching he's most welcome to create a user account and join this discussion. | ::::::::By the way that blog link now has some kind of notice saying that the author is going to stop writing responses for now and write better responses later on. He says (the username is ' .. guy', so) that some of our error sections that he addressed were removed or edited in reaction to his content and I dont think thats true. If he's watching he's most welcome to create a user account and join this discussion. | ||
::::::::As for revisions/deletions/additions, we have always improved our work and that's a good thing for any kind of work. | ::::::::As for revisions/deletions/additions, we have always improved our work and that's a good thing for any kind of work. | ||
::::::::He also implies that we inserted the "under construction" notice recently or in reaction to his blog's content but we did it in [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title= | ::::::::He also implies that we inserted the "under construction" notice recently or in reaction to his blog's content but we did it in [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran&diff=103064&oldid=103063 January] (6 months ago) before this blog was noticed and I think it has been on that page before as well. I doubt he'll make these corrections as he probably wants his readers to believe what he originally said (that makes his blog look better). | ||
::::::::Here's another 'rebuttal' link [http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/faithfreedom-wikiislam] on another site/forum. | ::::::::Here's another 'rebuttal' link [http://www.islamic-life.com/forums/faithfreedom-wikiislam] on another site/forum. | ||
::::::::You can see why its critical to have this page in the best shape possible. In my opinion none of these rebuttals have really addressed the errors but they may still have content that can be used to improve our page(s). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 15:49, 29 June 2014 (PDT) | ::::::::You can see why its critical to have this page in the best shape possible. In my opinion none of these rebuttals have really addressed the errors but they may still have content that can be used to improve our page(s). --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 15:49, 29 June 2014 (PDT) | ||
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::::::::"So far they have removed various areas - some of which I addressed." | ::::::::"So far they have removed various areas - some of which I addressed." | ||
:::::::I have asked him twice to tell us what areas we removed or edited and he hasn't responded and until he does that and is specific about which areas/sections/errors he's talking about he cannot make the claim that the areas, some of which he addressed were removed or edited. | :::::::I have asked him twice to tell us what areas we removed or edited and he hasn't responded and until he does that and is specific about which areas/sections/errors he's talking about he cannot make the claim that the areas, some of which he addressed were removed or edited. | ||
:::::::So ThatMuslimGuy, can you support your claim by telling us which sections that you addressed on your blog were removed? Here's a link to the [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title= | :::::::So ThatMuslimGuy, can you support your claim by telling us which sections that you addressed on your blog were removed? Here's a link to the [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Scientific_Errors_in_the_Quran&offset=&limit=250&action=history page history.] You can use the Diff links to go back in time to show you older versions of the page. You can give us Diff links and tell us which sections you're talking about. Here's one example of a Diff link. [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur%27an&diff=107485&oldid=107473 Diff] link or you can just copy paste the URL(s) here. [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Adverse_Effects_of_Islamic_Fasting Happy Ramadan.] (a favorite article of mine) --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 15:18, 2 July 2014 (PDT) | ||
::::::::: Hey guys, In the past yeah we have thought about doing that. Saggy - Removing multiple points on the site, rewriting sections, adding additions etc - I would say is big change to the article, In my post no where have I asserted you changed the article because of me or anything alike. I simply detailed that I recently checked out the page and that you had added that on the top of the page and removed some points, some of which I had written about, hence rendering those posts on my blog now void. | ::::::::: Hey guys, In the past yeah we have thought about doing that. Saggy - Removing multiple points on the site, rewriting sections, adding additions etc - I would say is big change to the article, In my post no where have I asserted you changed the article because of me or anything alike. I simply detailed that I recently checked out the page and that you had added that on the top of the page and removed some points, some of which I had written about, hence rendering those posts on my blog now void. | ||
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::::::::::Alright thats what I was looking for, the blog post links and the diffs - thanks much. We'll look into them. Are there any more? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 19:23, 2 July 2014 (PDT) | ::::::::::Alright thats what I was looking for, the blog post links and the diffs - thanks much. We'll look into them. Are there any more? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 19:23, 2 July 2014 (PDT) | ||
:::::::::::: I dont think so. I think the others wordings have just changed. People discussed it before: [http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1024.msg4792.html#msg4792] But the idea died. --[[User:ThatMuslimGuy|ThatMuslimGuy]] ([[User talk:ThatMuslimGuy|talk]]) 19:42, 2 July 2014 (PDT) | :::::::::::: I dont think so. I think the others wordings have just changed. People discussed it before: [http://www.answering-christianity.com/blog/index.php/topic,1024.msg4792.html#msg4792] But the idea died. --[[User:ThatMuslimGuy|ThatMuslimGuy]] ([[User talk:ThatMuslimGuy|talk]]) 19:42, 2 July 2014 (PDT) | ||
:::::::::::::I'm thinking at least some of the ones that were removed were added by Saggy (he has been asked by people not to add any errors that arent obvious, hence I made this set of [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Talk:Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur%27an#.5BSticky.5D_Instructions_for_editing_this_page guidelines] on the talk page). But thats ok, all editors make mistakes (including myself) or may have different perspectives. He's done some good work in finding hadiths and verses and he's passionate and interested about the topic. He made this page on the [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Hadith Scientific errors in Hadiths] (a sample error: [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Hadith#Black_cumin_cures_all_diseases "black cumin cures everything"]), and some other pages. | |||
:::::::::::::You should follow up with the idea you were discussing with your friends. Sounds like some progress was being made. Take control of it, get advice and give it your best shot. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 20:01, 2 July 2014 (PDT) | |||
::::::::::::::Why dont you try to rebutt some of the more obvious errors such as [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur%27an#Stars_are_Located_in_the_Nearest_Heaven Stars are Located in the Nearest Heaven], [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur%27an#Earth_Created_before_Stars Earth Created before Stars], [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Scientific_Errors_in_the_Qur%27an#Humans_Created_in_Paradise_and_then_Brought_to_Earth Humans Created in Paradise and then Brought to Earth] which is explored in detail at: [[Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Creation]] <---- This is a huge glaring Scientific error (evolution). etc. So start with the most difficult errors if you really believe Quran has no errors. Saying they're figures of speech is not a defense. | |||
::::::::::::::We'll look at the ones you pointed out and I can assure you they were not removed in reaction to your blog but as we were reviewing them ourselves. There are some others that were removed/revised which are not on your blog. We have done such revisions all the time and not just recently. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 03:05, 3 July 2014 (PDT) | |||
:::::::::::::::: Will do - Some of those are the most weakest ones. --[[User:ThatMuslimGuy|ThatMuslimGuy]] ([[User talk:ThatMuslimGuy|talk]]) 03:46, 3 July 2014 (PDT) | |||
:::::::::::::::::I doubt the most obvious errors will ever be responded to (remember to deal with Creationism and Evolution as you know that is a major issue for science) and after that there will be a vast amount of [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Site_Map other content] to deal with. Good luck. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 04:05, 3 July 2014 (PDT) | |||
== Reviews == | == Reviews == | ||
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::When will you get time? Besides you spent at least 10 minutes yesterday. How long does it take to review that an apologist is contradicting the quran itself (this is not even like my error claims)? If I gather all errors in my sandbox, one day you will have to spend an a lot more time than you get per day right now. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:23, 23 June 2014 (PDT) | ::When will you get time? Besides you spent at least 10 minutes yesterday. How long does it take to review that an apologist is contradicting the quran itself (this is not even like my error claims)? If I gather all errors in my sandbox, one day you will have to spend an a lot more time than you get per day right now. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:23, 23 June 2014 (PDT) | ||
:::Forgot to reply. At least for me its easier and more efficient mentally to deal with multiple similar issues at the same time instead of one at a time with long breaks in between them. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 09:51, 2 July 2014 (PDT) | :::Forgot to reply. At least for me its easier and more efficient mentally to deal with multiple similar issues at the same time instead of one at a time with long breaks in between them. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 09:51, 2 July 2014 (PDT) | ||
== 72 Virgins == | |||
I'm still trying to figure out what the point of [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=72_Virgins&diff=prev&oldid=109201 this] edit was, and how it was supposed to be connected to [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Talk:72_Jungfrauen this] rant by a fly-by anonymous German. The German guy is only complaining about how he thinks the German ''language'' in that section is linguistically incorrect. In that case, the German translator should probably be asked to comment or the talk page should be deleted (if they have no intention of fixing the alleged problem, then their complaint is nothing more than a rant). Instead you make some linguistically incorrect additions of your own to the English version and claim "I corrected the English side"? Really? The point of that western dhimmi author is that the Bible does not claim that after death Christians will be issued with wings and a harp, and walk on clouds, just like how she wants us to believe the Qur'an does not claim that after death Muslims will be issued with virgins. Our point is her analogy is faulty because the Qur'an ''does'' state that after death Muslims will be issued with virgins. Since Revelation 14:2 does not state anywhere that Christians will be issued with wings and a harp, and walk on clouds, the addition was pointless and is counter-productive to the purpose of the article. The probable origin of ideas is irrelevant information and only serves to water-down and confuse the articulated and concise approach of the article. Your other edit to [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Revelational_Circumstances_of_the_Qur%27an%3A_Missing_Verses&diff=109206&oldid=109200 Revelational Circumstances of the Qur'an] was also faulty, in that Tabari is not a part of "the major Hadith collections" (all other sources such as tafsirs etc., were purposely excluded by Sani because they are not as authoritative as the major Hadith collections and tend to contain apologetic opinions). The fact that this series only quotes major Hadith collections is stated quite clearly on its main page, but you seem to be making additions without fully understanding why or what you are editing. Please can you explain your edits or at least try to be more careful in the future. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 02:27, 11 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
:The woman overlooked that Quran makes the claim but Bible does not. The image of a heavener with a harp is at best a pop culture thing derived from that verse. The sentence is still too weird. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 06:48, 11 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
::She did not overlook it. That was exactly her point. She is claiming Muslims view the idea of virgins in heaven much the same as Christians view wings and a harp i.e. it's a made-up thing that no practising Christian actually believes. Okay, so you think that sentence is "weird", but that does not explain why you think adding pointless trivia to the page is "fixing it", nor does it explain why you think your edit made it less "weird" (if it wasn't linguistically weird to begin with, it certainly was afterwards). We are not contesting her claim that the wings and harp thing is a myth because she is right, so there is nothing more needed to be said about that. What we are doing is pointing out ''how'' she is wrong.[[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 07:22, 11 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
== QHS edits == | |||
Your edit here [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Animals&diff=prev&oldid=109252]. This is Ritual slaughter. It applies to all Abrahamic religions. I agree killing an animal with a knife like this is painful for the animal but the animal's meat is consumed. | |||
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sacrifice#Abrahamic_traditions. | |||
So tell me why those hadiths should stay here and how they fit with the other content of the page. | |||
For the 2nd edit, [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Cosmology&diff=109253&oldid=109212] | |||
This belongs in Creationism more than it does in Cosmology. Is there anything specific about cosmology mentioned in that quote? Plus this quote has round brackets '(' and you've used double triangular brackets '<'. | |||
So can you explain? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 22:01, 14 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
::He did it in large numbers. Thats all I want to show, whether it is for food or fun. There is also some kindness to a animals hadith that does not fit in. | |||
::Some uterus is attached to that throne. It will react on Judgement Day and so on. Often this cosmology and creation are seen to have some things overlaping like creation of throne, sun, moon stars and heavens, (but not creation of Adam ). So you want it in creation? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 23:32, 14 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
:::You are the boss. I am a nobody. So I will edit my sandbox. What am I going to do with a sandbox out of this site? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 03:26, 15 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
::::I will also post it to the tasks. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 03:37, 15 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
::::: The site's quality is the first priority and must be preserved (so it doesn't matter who the boss is - we are all bosses and it depends whose arguments makes sense). I am a nobody too just like you and I will consult with Sahab to decide on this. Looking at it rationally, the problem is that I don't have time to review a regular editor's edits every time and many of yours edits need to be seriously corrected and require a lot of time for correction. If all of someone's edits require serious evaluation it wouldnt be a problem unless there was someone willing to evaluate the edits who had the time to do it. | |||
:::::''"He did it in large numbers."'' - what large numbers? The hadith only say "many camels". Many camels could be 6, 10, 15, 30 -- we dont know. So what do you mean by large numbers and how do you prove it? If there were a large number of people to feed, 20 camels could be slaughtered and that would be considered "many" or "large numbers". | |||
:::::No as I said, the Tafsir quote has nothing specific to do with Cosmology; nothing about Stars, skies, universe etc. It leaves one wondering what it has to do with cosmology. ''"Often this cosmology and creation are seen to have some things"'' - this is your interpretation. If creationism is linked we can then copy all the Creation hadiths into Cosmology which doesnt make any sense. I will wait for Sahab's input before commenting further. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 04:51, 15 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
::::::I know what he's likely to say. So I think you should add it to creation and forget the first one. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 06:34, 15 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
:::::::I think the edit Saggy made to [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Animals&diff=prev&oldid=109252#Sacrifices Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Animals] is a very good addition to the page. Ritual slaughter is described in all Abrahamic texts, but there are several differences here in comparison to the other two big faiths: | |||
:::::::1. Concerning Christians, they do not perform ritual slaughter, nor did Jesus ever perform a ritual slaughter. | |||
:::::::2. Concerning Jews, yes they do perform ritual slaughter, but they do not go around telling people that Moses loved animals and that he is an excellent role-model for today's socially conscientious youth. | |||
:::::::3. On the other hand, a lot of apologists do try to convert young people to Islam by trying to sell the idea that Muhammad was a progressive man who loved animals. | |||
:::::::So, considering the above, it is very relevant in the QHS:Animals page to quote proof that Muhammad not only ordered the ritual slaughter of animals, but also partook in it himself. | |||
:::::::I also agree with Saggy that the "kindness to animals" hadith do not fit in with that page. I certainly did not add them and I do not think they should remain. A section like that does not belong on a wiki critical of Islam. If it was added with the intention of making the wiki appear more "neutral" then I can safely say that it will ''never'' convince anyone that the wiki is neutral, but it does make the page look odd and will probably confuse people. | |||
:::::::I think the edit Saggy made to [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Cosmology&diff=109253&oldid=109212 Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Cosmology] does not belong in the Creation page (it is too vague for that and the Creation page is very specific), but it can be squeezed in with cosmology because it describes Allah's "Throne" etc. In all honesty though, I would just remove that last edit by Saggy and move it to a temp page until somewhere more suited is found (I don't think it really talks about cosmology or creation in a very coherent way). Or at the very least, keep it on the cosmology page but trim it down to only include the relevant information (e.g., as Saggy noted, "Some uterus is attached to that throne. It will react on Judgement Day and so on."). | |||
:::::::About the triangular brackets; I'm guessing they are there because Saggy copy/pasted text from Answering Islam. This is a concern to me. The last time we had an editor who got carried away with copy/pasting stuff from there, things didn't turn out so well (It was this by OsmanHassan that left us with those Errors pages in such a mess). If you are not going to bother removing the emphasis added by the Answering Islam team (such as brackets, underlining and caps) you really should not be using them. | |||
:::::::Another concern is the fact that the tafsir is not being cited properly. ''Ibn Kathir, "Interpretation of Qur'an 47:22"'' is not a reference. If an online version of Tafsir Ibn Kathir is going to quoted, then it should be cited more like [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Creation#Ibn_Kathir_2 this] (Not exactly an up-to-date example of a reference because it does not use any CiteWeb templates. Nevertheless, notice the archived URL and the actual heading of each section provided in the tafsir being quoted). | |||
:::::::At Saggy: What does "I know what he's likely to say" mean? Honestly, I would really like to know what you think you know, because I highly doubt you know what I'm going to say. I'll admit I usually think you edits should be removed. But that is because they are usually terrible. In this case, they are not wholly terrible (in the first case, it was actually a good addition and a good observation concerning the "Kindness" hadith). [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 03:51, 16 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
::::::::Ok. I added back the Sacrifice hadiths and took out the kindness section. Maybe those reasons could be added to those sections (just a suggestion). Thanks for the analysis. I agree care should be taken if copying stuff from Answering-Islam. | |||
::::::::Saggy, you can move the Cosmology stuff to the temp page as directed by Sahab or trim it down as suggested. | |||
::::::::Well guys I dont know if I can keep up with the edit reviews but I'll try my best. I had suggested to Saggy that he should keep his edits in his Sandbox pages and maybe one day we can find someone willing who has the time to review them. I am operating in a minimum maintenance mode and even [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AAxius&diff=109285&oldid=109250 that] is a challenge for me. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 10:31, 16 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
:::::::::No probs. I don't think any additional text would be needed. As it is, it lets the readers know that Mo had no problems with animal slaughter without making judgements on it or bringing up other faiths. If we did bring up other faiths, then it would look like we're defending them (just think of Natassia and the problems her writings have caused on the wiki recently). With the exception of a few major tu quoque arguments which inhibit the criticism of Islam, that is something the wiki is not here to do. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 11:43, 16 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
::::::::::Ok. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 09:02, 17 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
::::::::::What is this Natassia tangle? [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 11:48, 16 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
:Saggy, please fix the reference style in this edit [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Cosmology&diff=prev&oldid=109291] as Sahab mentioned above. | |||
:Sahab also said to you ''"I usually think you[r] edits should be removed. But that is because they are usually terrible."'' I agree with Sahab, adding that its too much work reviewing your edits and fixing them and currently no one is available to do that. So I'm sorry but from now please only edit Sandboxes in your userspace (no main space edits, or edits on Sandboxes for the site). You can edit your Sandboxes in any way you like and organize your content in whatever way you like and you can also make new pages in your Sandboxes. | |||
:''"What am I going to do with a sandbox out of this site?"'' - what do you mean by this? You can work on the sandboxes and hopefully one day someone will come by and take your edits from there and merge them into main space articles where necessary. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 09:02, 17 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
::Sahab I'm guessing you wouldn't have a problem with Saggy's edits to the mainspace being disallowed. I dont have enough time to review the edits of a regular editor who has problems with most of their edits (as you said above and I agreed with it). Unless you're willing to review them and I'm guessing you dont have enough time as well. | |||
::To anyone else: I'm sorry but the top priority is to maintain the quality of the site and if anyone is willing to review Saggy's edits let me know and we can make that arrangement. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 13:29, 21 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
:::No, I don't have the time to do that. Sorry Ax. [[User:Sahab|--Sahab]] ([[User talk:Sahab|talk]]) 19:02, 21 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
::::Yea, I figured. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 03:13, 29 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
Saggy, possible material for [[WikiIslam:Sandbox/Forgiveness]] - "Allah forgives all sins" but then "does not forgive shirk" etc. Take what you want and let me know when you're done and I'll delete that page. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 03:13, 29 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
:Why do you want to delete it? It is in a bad state. But it is an extension of [[Contradictions in the Quran]](1.13 Does Allah forgive everything? , 1.14 Does Allah forgive worshipping other gods/shirk?). Since there are hadith for shirk, it will also benefit from them. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 03:28, 29 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
::Is there already another article for this "forgiveness" subject? <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Saggy|contribs]]) {{#if:|  |}} ([[WikiIslam:Signatures#Signing_Posts|Remember to sign your comments]]) </small> | |||
:::That Sandbox is what we have. It was written in the early days when we didnt have any good content and its not a good article but you can take the "Will all sins be forgiven?" and make a section for Contradictions in the Quran (in your sandbox article for QHS issues) and take anything else whatever you think is useful.--[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 03:50, 29 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
::::Is [[Contradictions in the Quran]] meant for detailed explanations?? Where will hadiths go? I think of trying to edit this old article itself. Wait for a while. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 03:58, 29 August 2014 (PDT) | |||
== Disasters == | |||
What do you see in the history? [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Accidents_and_Natural_Disasters_in_the_Muslim_World&action=history]. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 04:35, 14 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
:So quick? Anyway, Kashmir is a Muslim majority state and the Kashmir Valley is almost entirely Muslim. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 04:40, 14 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
::The disaster also affected non-Muslim Indian-controlled areas so no. That does not fit in with the rest of the page. It doesnt matter if its Muslim majority. That is not the pattern already on the page. I have asked you not to edit main space so can you please remember not to? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 04:44, 14 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
:::You did not even look at the final rendered version of your page edit [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Accidents_and_Natural_Disasters_in_the_Muslim_World&diff=109713&oldid=109710]. There is a huge red tag there. See it? --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 04:47, 14 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
::::Another thing is that you had to re-add the previous text. That means someone must have removed it. So you would have checked page history or Recent changes to see what was going on. How did you not notice that the text had been removed? Why did you re-add the text without seeing the page history or seeing who removed it, or contact them to ask about the removal? And you wonder why you are asked not to edit the main space. This means that you should not edit any page on this site unless it has these patterns: (Talk page, User talk page, Sandbox page). This means all your main space edits can be reverted in the future without any explanation. Do you understand this now? I would normally not approach an editor like this but I have asked you multiple times before not to edit main space and of course your quality of edits has been brought up before. The only way to get back mainspace editing is to demonstrate high quality editing/engagement in the 3 other types of pages you can edit. | |||
::::Please provide a confirmation that you have understood what I have said here. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 06:08, 14 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
:::::I clicked once, browser did did not load saved edit, internet was down, the page still remained. Minutes after that i added the next incident. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 07:32, 14 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
::::::Ok. The first edit though shows the red ref tag [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=Accidents_and_Natural_Disasters_in_the_Muslim_World&diff=109709&oldid=109610]. Did you see that? Use preview or view the page right away to make sure the output looks ok. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 07:36, 14 September 2014 (PDT) | |||
== New editors == | |||
About your comment [http://wikiislam.net/w/index.php?title=WikiIslam:Forum/Visitor_Inquiries&diff=109960&oldid=109956 here], its easy for new editors to be able to directly edit main space [http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Message_to_New_Users]: ''"Therefore (excluding minor edits and corrections), new users should not edit or create main space articles until they demonstrate good judgement and the ability to make positive contributions, upon which they will receive the Editor or Reviewer user right.".''. All they need to do is display good judgement in Sandbox pages. If they cannot do that that yes, they must wait for content to be reviewed and that of course is dependent on who is available to review. | |||
The highest priority on the site is to maintain and increase its quality. It is not whether or not someone can edit the main space content directly or not. They also have a lot of options because they can edit Sandbox and userspace pages to any extent. The quality of work in those pages will decide if they can edit main space directly. --[[User:Axius|Axius]] <span style="font-size:88%">([[User_talk:Axius|talk]] <nowiki>|</nowiki> [[Special:Contributions/Axius|contribs]])</span> 17:38, 8 October 2014 (PDT) | |||
== New addition on Scientific errors in Quran == | |||
* Investigate and add if suitable: [http://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Qur%27anic_scientific_foreknowledge&oldid=1453448]. | |||
* Check for additions: http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/Erroneous-Science-and-Contradictions-in-Quran.htm ([https://web.archive.org/web/20160809202919/http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/Erroneous-Science-and-Contradictions-in-Quran.htm Archive]) | |||
::Thanks. Are you from EXMNA? Need a helping hand here. Posting to your talks as well. [[User:Saggy|Saggy]] ([[User talk:Saggy|talk]]) 17:47, 7 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
:::No I'm not from EXMNA. Scientific errors in Quran article needs to be translated into Arabic, Bengali (they form the second largest Muslim group in the world after Arab muslims), Urdu (Pakistani language), Turkish and Indonesian. Also link to the Scientific errors in Quran article needs to be spread around in the web. For example Bengali clerics post videos of their talks in Bengali on Youtube to attract followers, link to Scientific errors in Quran English article, or even better Bengali translated one, should be posted on the comments section. These videos get 100s of thousands of views. --[[User:AAA|AAA]] ([[User talk:AAA|talk]]) 19:59, 11 September 2017 (EDT) | |||
== Discrimination against women in Islam new article == | |||
Men can have 4 wives + sex slaves, women can't have more than one husband | |||
With regard to inheritance, a son's share is double that of a daughter's.[Quran 4:11] | |||
Women forced to cover head, men not | |||
Wife beating allowed | |||
The testimony of a woman is deemed in Islam to be worth half that of a man (I'laam al-Muwaqqa'een, part 1, p. 75) | |||
and many more......--[[User:AAA|AAA]] ([[User talk:AAA|talk]]) 20:15, 11 September 2017 (EDT) | |||