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WikiIslam:Sandbox/EDIT THIS PART: Difference between revisions
WikiIslam:Sandbox/EDIT THIS PART (view source)
Revision as of 17:47, 21 October 2023
, 21 October 2023→Versus modern science
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And because of it these went up in fire. | And because of it these went up in fire. | ||
This happened utterly...}} | This happened utterly...}} | ||
A discussion linking this event to being a meteorite can be found [https://hcommons.org/deposits/objects/hc:27978/datastreams/CONTENT/content?download=true here](''“Then a Star Fell:” Folk-Memory of a Celestial Impact Event in the Ancient Egyptian Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor? Dr Lloyd D. Graham. 2022)''.<ref>https://www.academia.edu/35137388 | A discussion linking this event to being a meteorite can be found [https://hcommons.org/deposits/objects/hc:27978/datastreams/CONTENT/content?download=true here](''“Then a Star Fell:” Folk-Memory of a Celestial Impact Event in the Ancient Egyptian Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor? Dr Lloyd D. Graham. 2022)''.<ref>https://www.academia.edu/35137388</ref> And for a further discussion of a theoretically catastrophic impact in ancient Egypt, see ''Aly Barakat, ‘Did the Kamil Meteorite Fall Contribute to the Downfall of the Old Kingdom?’, The Ostracon: Journal of the Egyptian Study Society, XXIV (Fall 2013), pp. 12–21.''<ref>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_T0MWfFWfo</ref> | ||
'''Biblical motifs''' | '''Biblical motifs''' | ||
Though there is no direct stories of the functions of stars in this way in the bible (or biblical literature), Dr Julien Decharneux notes in his book '<nowiki/>''Creation and Contemplation: The Cosmology of the Qur'ān and Its Late Antique Background. De Gruyter. 2023''<nowiki/>', which explores the connections between the cosmology of the Qur’ān and various cosmological traditions of Late Antiquity, with a focus on Syriac Christianity,<ref>https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783110794083/html</ref> there are some general motifs that link to this imagery; such as Talmudic stories of demons listening in to divine councils, and separately fire as weapons from the upper skies. However, there is no direct story for this (yet) found in biblical literature. He notes it is more likely rooted in Iranian mythology: {{Quote|Decharneux, Julien. Creation and Contemplation: The Cosmology of the Qur'ān and Its Late Antique Background (Studies in the History and Culture of the Middle East Book 47) (pp. 316-317) | Though there is no direct stories of the functions of stars in this way in the bible (or biblical literature), Dr Julien Decharneux notes in his book '<nowiki/>''Creation and Contemplation: The Cosmology of the Qur'ān and Its Late Antique Background. Berlin: De Gruyter. 2023''<nowiki/>', which explores the connections between the cosmology of the Qur’ān and various cosmological traditions of Late Antiquity, with a focus on Syriac Christianity,<ref>https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/9783110794083/html</ref> there are some general motifs that link to this imagery; such as Talmudic stories of demons listening in to divine councils, and separately fire as weapons from the upper skies. However, there is no direct story for this (yet) found in biblical literature. He notes it is more likely rooted in Iranian mythology: {{Quote|Decharneux, Julien. (2023) Creation and Contemplation: The Cosmology of the Qur'ān and Its Late Antique Background (Studies in the History and Culture of the Middle East Book 47) Berlin: De Gruyter. (pp. 316-317).|The image of fallen angels trying to approach the firmament in order to listen to the heavenly council is found in the Talmud. Crone in fact already notes the presence of the motif in the first-century Greek Testament of Solomon. Here however, demons are not chased by fiery missiles, but they themselves look like shooting stars after falling from the sky out of exhaustion. Although a systematic skimming of the sources would probably reveal the presence of the motif of stars chasing demons away from the heavenly council in patristic and Christian apocryphal literature, our sources show that it was still lively in the imagery of the 8th century in the Church of the East. Theodore bar Koni, in his Scolion, discusses the activity of demons: | ||
<i>Can the demons ascend to the place on high anyway? They cannot because they are held back by the power of the one who destroyed them. It is not proper that defiled ones approach the Tent of the Saints […]. The fact that our Lord compared him to a lightning means two things: either that he lasted in his domination for the time of the sight of a lightning, or that when while he was shining as a lightning in glory, he was quenched at once and no traces of his splendour was left.</i> | <i>Can the demons ascend to the place on high anyway? They cannot because they are held back by the power of the one who destroyed them. It is not proper that defiled ones approach the Tent of the Saints […]. The fact that our Lord compared him to a lightning means two things: either that he lasted in his domination for the time of the sight of a lightning, or that when while he was shining as a lightning in glory, he was quenched at once and no traces of his splendour was left.</i> | ||
In fact, the motif of demons chased by flames finds particularly original renderings in the writings of Pseudo-Macarius and that of Syriac mystic authors studied in the second chapter. Building on the motif the inner divine fire that animates the mystic, they hold that it is the flames of this fire that chase away the demons from the heart. All in all, we see that Crone’s hypothesis of an eastern origin and development for the motif is quite likely. The image of fire and flames chasing demons away was not only widespread in Jewish circle as witnessed by the Babylonian Talmud, but it was also quite in use in the Church of the East tradition.}}'''Weapons against demons''' | In fact, the motif of demons chased by flames finds particularly original renderings in the writings of Pseudo-Macarius and that of Syriac mystic authors studied in the second chapter. Building on the motif the inner divine fire that animates the mystic, they hold that it is the flames of this fire that chase away the demons from the heart. All in all, we see that Crone’s hypothesis of an eastern origin and development for the motif is quite likely. The image of fire and flames chasing demons away was not only widespread in Jewish circle as witnessed by the Babylonian Talmud, but it was also quite in use in the Church of the East tradition.}}'''Weapons against demons''' | ||
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They are often not much larger than grains of sand and only become visible for a second when they burn up, generating light in the Earth's atmosphere. Many ancient people confused the two, as meteors look like stars that are streaking across the sky; this is why they were often called shooting stars or falling stars <u>(''see: [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-science-of-shooting-stars/ The Scientific American. The Science of Shooting Stars by Phil Plait. 2023.] for a further explanation of the science'').</u> | They are often not much larger than grains of sand and only become visible for a second when they burn up, generating light in the Earth's atmosphere. Many ancient people confused the two, as meteors look like stars that are streaking across the sky; this is why they were often called shooting stars or falling stars <u>(''see: [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-science-of-shooting-stars/ The Scientific American. The Science of Shooting Stars by Phil Plait. 2023.] for a further explanation of the science'').</u> | ||
Large increases in meteors occur on a predictable schedule each year as the Earth's orbit passes through the stream of particles and debris left in the wake of a number of comets (or in a few cases, of asteroids). They only burn in Earths atmosphere due to friction from travelling extremely fast in a vacuum which takes no energy, to being compressed by air in the atmosphere, rising the temperature and setting fire where there is oxygen.<ref name=":0" /> The most visible is usually the annual [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseids Perseid meteor shower] in August, which easily look like stars with flames being used a weapon in the sky. Meteor showers look like stars 'pelting' from every side. Also meteor paths are dictated by physics, so it is unclear how they could pursue a jinn/devil that moved out of it's directed course. | Large increases in meteors occur on a predictable schedule each year as the Earth's orbit passes through the stream of particles and debris left in the wake of a number of comets (or in a few cases, of asteroids). They only burn in Earths atmosphere due to friction from travelling extremely fast in a vacuum which takes no energy, to being compressed by air in the atmosphere, rising the temperature and setting fire where there is oxygen.<ref name=":0">https://science.howstuffworks.com/question308.htm</ref> The most visible is usually the annual [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseids Perseid meteor shower] in August, which easily look like stars with flames being used a weapon in the sky. Meteor showers look like stars 'pelting' from every side. Also meteor paths are dictated by physics, so it is unclear how they could pursue a jinn/devil that moved out of it's directed course. | ||
If the flaming missiles mentioned by the Quran are to be identified with meteors burning up in the Earth's atmosphere, this would locate the eavesdropping devils (or jinn) in the upper atmosphere too, which leaves no way for the (extremely distant) stars to serve as guards in this process as outlined in the verses. | If the flaming missiles mentioned by the Quran are to be identified with meteors burning up in the Earth's atmosphere, this would locate the eavesdropping devils (or jinn) in the upper atmosphere too, which leaves no way for the (extremely distant) stars to serve as guards in this process as outlined in the verses. | ||
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===Meteors come from stars=== | ===Meteors come from stars=== | ||
Some apologists, for example, the highly influential [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abul_A'la_Maududi Ala-Maududi] (d. 1979 AD) writing in light of much more modern science in his modern tasfir wrote:{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://myislam.org/surah-al-mulk/ayat-5/#:~:text=Ala%2DMaududi,9. | title= Tasfir Ala-Maududi 67.5}}|This does not mean that the stars themselves are pelted at the Satans, nor that the meteorites shoot out only to drive away the Satans, <b>but it means that the countless meteorites which originate from the stars and wander in space at tremendous speeds and which also fall to the earth in a continuous shower prevent the Satans of the earth from ascending to the heavens.</b> Even if they try to ascend heavenward these meteorites drive them away. This thing has been mentioned here because the Arabs believed about the soothsayers, and this also was the claim made by the soothsayers themselves, that the Satans were under their control, or that they had a close contact with them, and through them they received news of the unseen, and thus, could foretell the destinies of the people. That is why at several places in the Quran, it has been stated that there is absolutely no possibility for the Satans ascending to the heavens and bringing news of the unseen. For explanation, see (Surah Al-Hijr, ayat 16-18) note 9-12, (Surah As-Saaffat, ayat 7-10) note 6,7. As for the truth about meteorites, man’s information in this regard is still without a scientific basis. However, the theory which seems best to account for all the facts known today and the information gathered from the examination of the meteorites fallen on the earth, is that meteorites originate from the disintegration of one or more planets and wander in space and sometimes fall to the earth under its gravitational pull. (See Encyclopedia Britannica, vol. XV, under Meteorites).}} | Some apologists, for example, the highly influential [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abul_A'la_Maududi Ala-Maududi] (d. 1979 AD) writing in light of much more modern science in his modern tasfir wrote:{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://myislam.org/surah-al-mulk/ayat-5/#:~:text=Ala%2DMaududi,9. | title= Tasfir Ala-Maududi 67.5}}|This does not mean that the stars themselves are pelted at the Satans, nor that the meteorites shoot out only to drive away the Satans, <b>but it means that the countless meteorites which originate from the stars and wander in space at tremendous speeds and which also fall to the earth in a continuous shower prevent the Satans of the earth from ascending to the heavens.</b> Even if they try to ascend heavenward these meteorites drive them away. This thing has been mentioned here because the Arabs believed about the soothsayers, and this also was the claim made by the soothsayers themselves, that the Satans were under their control, or that they had a close contact with them, and through them they received news of the unseen, and thus, could foretell the destinies of the people. That is why at several places in the Quran, it has been stated that there is absolutely no possibility for the Satans ascending to the heavens and bringing news of the unseen. For explanation, see (Surah Al-Hijr, ayat 16-18) note 9-12, (Surah As-Saaffat, ayat 7-10) note 6,7. As for the truth about meteorites, man’s information in this regard is still without a scientific basis. However, the theory which seems best to account for all the facts known today and the information gathered from the examination of the meteorites fallen on the earth, is that meteorites originate from the disintegration of one or more planets and wander in space and sometimes fall to the earth under its gravitational pull. (See Encyclopedia Britannica, vol. XV, under Meteorites).}} | ||
''Note: the claim that meteorites (Meteorites are 'space rocks', i.e. the debris that have made it all the way to Earth’s surface, not meteors which are the burning objects and mostly come from comet debris) come from planets disintegrating is misleading. 99.8% percent are believed to come from asteroids with the remaining small fraction (0.2%) of meteorites split roughly equally between Mars and the Moon.<ref>https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/meteors-meteorites/facts/</ref>'' | ''Note: the claim that meteorites (Meteorites are 'space rocks', i.e. the debris that have made it all the way to Earth’s surface from meteors, not meteors themselves which are the burning objects and mostly come from comet debris) come from planets disintegrating is misleading. 99.8% percent of meteorites are believed to come from asteroids with the remaining small fraction (0.2%) of meteorites split roughly equally between Mars and the Moon.<ref>https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/meteors-meteorites/facts/</ref>'' | ||
'''Objections to this claim''' | '''Objections to this claim''' | ||
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There is also nothing said of their function of holding planetary systems together,<ref>https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/how-do-stars-form-and-evolve/</ref> which could have easily been done by differentiation of fixed stars from moving stars, and shown genuine scientific foreknowledge. | There is also nothing said of their function of holding planetary systems together,<ref>https://science.nasa.gov/astrophysics/focus-areas/how-do-stars-form-and-evolve/</ref> which could have easily been done by differentiation of fixed stars from moving stars, and shown genuine scientific foreknowledge. | ||
==External Links== | ==External Links== | ||
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*In the meteor section at the end, your source https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/asteroids-comets-and-meteors/meteors-and-meteorites/in-depth/ says that 99.8% of '''meteorites''' (not meteors) come from asteroids: "More than 50,000 meteorites have been found on Earth. Of these, 99.8 percent come from asteroids. The remaining small fraction (0.2 percent) of meteorites is split roughly equally between meteorites from Mars and the Moon." | *In the meteor section at the end, your source https://solarsystem.nasa.gov/asteroids-comets-and-meteors/meteors-and-meteorites/in-depth/ says that 99.8% of '''meteorites''' (not meteors) come from asteroids: "More than 50,000 meteorites have been found on Earth. Of these, 99.8 percent come from asteroids. The remaining small fraction (0.2 percent) of meteorites is split roughly equally between meteorites from Mars and the Moon." | ||
:Only a tiny fraction of meteors are rocky masses large enough to reach the ground, so that section will need a bit of rewriting. The source doesn't include your 94% figure so I'm not sure where that came from. The vast majority of shooting stars are actually comet debris which we encounter during meteor showers, while "sporadic" meteors are generally debris from asteroid collisions (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-science-of-shooting-stars/). | :Only a tiny fraction of meteors are rocky masses large enough to reach the ground, so that section will need a bit of rewriting. The source doesn't include your 94% figure so I'm not sure where that came from. The vast majority of shooting stars are actually comet debris which we encounter during meteor showers, while "sporadic" meteors are generally debris from asteroid collisions (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-science-of-shooting-stars/). | ||
'''Cheers, I've got rid off that section and added the Scientific American Article you shared as a link to the relevant science.''' | |||
:I think generally the whole article is good except for parts of that section because Muslim readers will have no issue with meteoroids changing direction at the last minute by the command of Allah (and just some of them, not that every | :I think generally the whole article is good except for parts of that section because Muslim readers will have no issue with meteoroids changing direction at the last minute by the command of Allah (and just some of them, not that every meteoroid or meteor out there is chasing a jinn). These verses are about a supernatural phenomenon, after all. It makes no difference to them how far away the comets or asteroids are, so long as there is debris in the very close vicinity of earth at any one time which can be redirected as necessary when Allah plays Space Invaders. That's why the predictable nature of meteor showers (the earth annually encounters a number of trails left behind by certain long period comets) and the disconnect between stars and meteors are much more potent points for any Muslims who do accept that the Quran is referring to shooting stars. Perhaps there's some way to refine the distance point to make it stronger and maybe a bit shorter. | ||
'''Yes I think you are right. I may reword, refine and resubmit in the future if I can clarify the relevance (w , especially if I see a lot of arguments online specifically that general asteroids/comets are the weapons), but I'll leave as it is for now. Also thank you for the image of god playing space invaders with jinn..''' | |||
*When citing sources, please do not just post bare links. Instead please give the title of the webpage (which should be a link to that page), the name of the website, maybe the author and, if possible, we usually include the date or year of publication. Otherwise the references section will look extremely messy, especially when there are long urls which increase the width of the page when viewed on a mobile device. | *When citing sources, please do not just post bare links. Instead please give the title of the webpage (which should be a link to that page), the name of the website, maybe the author and, if possible, we usually include the date or year of publication. Otherwise the references section will look extremely messy, especially when there are long urls which increase the width of the page when viewed on a mobile device. | ||
:To do this in visual editor, click citation, type some text (page title, website, date etc.), highlight the page title that should become a link, then click the link button where you can add the url for that text. Alternatively, it might be possible to use the cite web template in visual editor (I haven't tried it as I always just use the source editor for everything). | :To do this in visual editor, click citation, type some text (page title, website, date etc.), highlight the page title that should become a link, then click the link button where you can add the url for that text. Alternatively, it might be possible to use the cite web template in visual editor (I haven't tried it as I always just use the source editor for everything). | ||
'''Cool, I've gotten rid off the long links - however I'm having some trouble editing the reference name in the links section.''' | |||
*Some links have very long url parameters which start with #:~:text. This occurs when you copy paste a link from the google "People also ask" suggestions. It highlights certain words on the webpage and will confuse readers, so please trim off the #:~:text part from any urls. | *Some links have very long url parameters which start with #:~:text. This occurs when you copy paste a link from the google "People also ask" suggestions. It highlights certain words on the webpage and will confuse readers, so please trim off the #:~:text part from any urls. | ||
*With academia.edu links, it's a good idea to strip out everything after the 8 digit number in the url (on wikipedia this is done automatically by a bot). The link will then always work even if the author tweaks the title and results in a much less unwieldy url if the title is long. | *With academia.edu links, it's a good idea to strip out everything after the 8 digit number in the url (on wikipedia this is done automatically by a bot). The link will then always work even if the author tweaks the title and results in a much less unwieldy url if the title is long. | ||
*When citing books, please give the full reference. The Decharneux reference springs to mind which should be something like this (with page numbers): Julien Decharneux (2023), ''Creation and Contemplation: The Cosmology of the Qur’ān and Its Late Antique Background'', Berlin: De Gruyter | *When citing books, please give the full reference. The Decharneux reference springs to mind which should be something like this (with page numbers): Julien Decharneux (2023), ''Creation and Contemplation: The Cosmology of the Qur’ān and Its Late Antique Background'', Berlin: De Gruyter | ||
:You can make the book title link to the degruyter webpage if you wish. | :You can make the book title link to the degruyter webpage if you wish. | ||
'''Will review tomorrow.''' | |||
*I've replaced the links to Quranx.com with the <nowiki>{{Quran||}}</nowiki> template. When citing verses please always use the <nowiki>{{Quran||}}</nowiki> or <nowiki>{{Quran-range|||}}</nowiki> templates since one day the url structure may change or we might have to use another site (both of which have happened in the past). Thanks to using the template we didn't have to go through every single citation and fix them when that happened. We just changed the website pointed to by the template or the url structure in the template. | *I've replaced the links to Quranx.com with the <nowiki>{{Quran||}}</nowiki> template. When citing verses please always use the <nowiki>{{Quran||}}</nowiki> or <nowiki>{{Quran-range|||}}</nowiki> templates since one day the url structure may change or we might have to use another site (both of which have happened in the past). Thanks to using the template we didn't have to go through every single citation and fix them when that happened. We just changed the website pointed to by the template or the url structure in the template. | ||
*I've also added a little more detail on the interesting phrase in the Tirmidhi hadith with links to Lane's Lexicon | *I've also added a little more detail on the interesting phrase in the Tirmidhi hadith with links to Lane's Lexicon | ||
*As mentioned somewhere in the wiki guide, nowadays we do not have a section titled "Conclusion" as we are going for a more encyclopedic format rather than telling the reader what to think overall, so I've edited and retitled that section. [[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 22:15, 15 October 2023 (UTC) | *As mentioned somewhere in the wiki guide, nowadays we do not have a section titled "Conclusion" as we are going for a more encyclopedic format rather than telling the reader what to think overall, so I've edited and retitled that section. [[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 22:15, 15 October 2023 (UTC) | ||