399
edits
User:CPO675/Sandbox 1: Difference between revisions
→A barrier between two seas
No edit summary |
|||
| Line 17: | Line 17: | ||
=== Introduction === | === Introduction === | ||
The Quran refers to two different bodies of water, emphasising there is one sweet and one fresh, and that they meet but there is a batter between them. Both early (and medieval Muslims) (cite), and modern Academic scholarship<ref>Damien Janos (2012) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0048721X.2012.642573 Qur’ānic cosmography in its historical perspective: some notes on the formation of a religious worldview], Religion, 42:2, 215-231, DOI: 10.1080/0048721X.2012.642573</ref>, have identified this with an ancient belief of there being a cosmic ocean of water surrounding the world. | The Quran refers to two different bodies of water, emphasising there is one sweet and one fresh, and that they meet but there is a batter between them. Both early (and medieval Muslims) (cite), and modern Academic scholarship<ref>Damien Janos (2012) [https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0048721X.2012.642573 Qur’ānic cosmography in its historical perspective: some notes on the formation of a religious worldview], Religion, 42:2, 215-231, DOI: 10.1080/0048721X.2012.642573</ref>(check whether to delete or not), have identified this with an ancient belief of there being a cosmic ocean of water surrounding the world.<ref>Tesei, Tommaso. Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. Journal of the American Oriental Society, vol. 135, no. 1, American Oriental Society, 2015, pp. 19–32, [https://lockwoodonlinejournals.com/index.php/jaos/article/view/1669 https://doi.org/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19.] https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19</ref>Other classical scholars have attributed it to the way fresh water bodies of water are separate to the salty seas and oceans in general, rather than two specific bodies of water not taking the verse literally.<ref>Tasfir Ibn Kathir on [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/25.51 verses 25:51-54]</ref><ref>Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Jalal/25.53 verse 25:53]</ref> | ||
Some modern Muslims have tried to reconcile the relevant verses with natural phenomena, including estuaries meeting the sea, and different seas having different salt levels. However critics do not believe the verses accurately describe this, and | Some modern Muslims have tried to reconcile the relevant verses with natural phenomena, including estuaries meeting the sea, and different seas having different salt levels. However critics do not believe the verses accurately describe this, and actually conflicts with the description in several key aspects as will be stated in the article. | ||
When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them. | When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them. | ||
=== The Qur'an === | === The Qur'an === | ||
We are told that there are | We are told that there are two seas (al-bahrain), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will ''never'' be passed. ''(verse straight after talks about creating humans)'' | ||
{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}} | {{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}} | ||
And again in Q35:12 we are told the two seas with one being fresh and sweet vs salty and bitter. But from both come fresh meat (presumably fish) and ornaments to wear come from both (presumably coral and pearl as mentioned in verse Q 55:22 (shown next): | |||
{{Quote|{{Quran|35|12}}|And the two seas are not alike: this, fresh, sweet, good to drink, this (other) bitter, salt. And from them both ye eat fresh meat and derive the ornament that ye wear. And thou seest the ship cleaving them with its prow that ye may seek of His bounty, and that haply ye may give thanks.}} | |||
({{Quran|35|12}} ''following creation of humans from clay.'') | |||
{{Quran|55|22}} quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching. ''(mentioned just after creating humans and jinn - nature'' | {{Quran|55|22}} quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching. ''(mentioned just after creating humans and jinn - nature'' | ||
| Line 43: | Line 49: | ||
==== '''Estuaries and salt water''' ==== | ==== '''Estuaries and salt water''' ==== | ||
Apologists claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them, and even that the descriptions show advanced knowledge of science that could not have been known to a human. You can see the images referenced in | Apologists claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them, and even that the descriptions show advanced knowledge of science that could not have been known to a human. You can see the images referenced in this [https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm link] which are repeated on many Islamic websites. | ||
The first claim is around fresh water from rivers meeting seas/oceans of salt water, with the transition stage known as [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary estuaries]: | The first claim is around fresh water from rivers meeting seas/oceans of salt water, with the transition stage known as [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary estuaries]: | ||
| Line 55: | Line 61: | ||
However critics point out, as above, that a ?? partition zone??is not a totally accurate way to describe a barrier in that it doesn't block the water, as the seas do mix - and are they are constantly mixing. This water creates a is called Brackish Water. This is changing the meaning of the words to fit a natural phenomena - there is nothing mentioned about the scientific reasons for his (around different densities). | |||
A layman could see this and think God put a barrier was a good explanation: | |||
# This description could easily apply to someone | {{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}}Issue's with inserting this is a scientific miracle, or even scientifically accurate: | ||
# | # As always with claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clearly de<nowiki/>scribed a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into typical categories of selective literalism, de-historicization and pseudo-corelation etc. (''see [[Scientific Miracles in the Quran]]''), taking advantage of ambiguity in language to fit a modern reading rather than an honest one. | ||
# This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sa<nowiki/>iling nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as they have done since ancient times<ref>''[https://www.bu.edu/archaeology/files/2016/05/Ancient-mariners-may-have-set-sail-130000-years-ago-_-Register-_-The-Times-The-Sunday-Times.pdf Ancient mariners may have set sail 130,000 years ago].'' ARCHAEOLOGY. The Times. Norman Hammond. 2016. Boston University Archive</ref>, as the colours are often different (as seen in the image X), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier between the two waters, | |||
# This description could be applied to someone believing there was no mixing at all between them - as there's no verse to say the 'barrier' contains mixed bodies of wate<nowiki/>r in the Quran verses. Hence no-body was able to discover anything new from the verse, and as observable (and arguably incorrect as we will discuss below), it is certainly not a miracle. | |||
# | |||
# Density of salt water is more than freshwater.<nowiki/> This was first discovered by Aristotle. “The drinkable, sweet water, then, is light and is all of it drawn up: the salt <nowiki/>water is heavy and remains behind.” -Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC)<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref> | # Density of salt water is more than freshwater.<nowiki/> This was first discovered by Aristotle. “The drinkable, sweet water, then, is light and is all of it drawn up: the salt <nowiki/>water is heavy and remains behind.” -Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC)<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref> | ||
# There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them [https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html here]), however despite what it may look like on<nowiki/> the surface they all mix to varying degrees - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they cannot pass<nowiki/>https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html A pycnocline zone, and more specifically, a halocline zone, is always a mixture of fresh water and salt water. It is a product of their mixing. In case of salt water and fresh water, there cannot be density discontinuity. The later can only be present if two liquids are immiscible, for example water and oil. | # There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them [https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html here]), however despite what it may look like on<nowiki/> the surface they all mix to varying degrees - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they cannot pass<nowiki/>https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html A pycnocline zone, and more specifically, a halocline zone, is always a mixture of fresh water and salt water. It is a product of their mixing. In case of salt water and fresh water, there cannot be density discontinuity. The later can only be present if two liquids are immiscible, for example water and oil. | ||
# In {{Quran|25|53}} We are told that there are specifically '''the''' '''two seas(l-baḥrayni) using the definite particle 'al/the' for a specific two seas)''' one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass. Yet this happens in many places (i.e. more than two) all across the world - why would it be talking about two seas with the definite 'al' particle (arguably it happens with all sweet and salty water/less dense water). Why is would be talking about two specific bodies of water, which are repeatedly referred to when so may other things - this does make sense in its historical context | # In {{Quran|25|53}} We are told that there are specifically '''the''' '''two seas(l-baḥrayni) using the definite particle 'al/the' for a specific two seas, bahr for large body of water/sea, and ending in ain meaning there are two of them)''' one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass. Yet this happens in many places (i.e. more than two) all across the world - why would it be talking about two seas with the definite 'al' particle (arguably it happens with all sweet and salty water/less dense water). Why is would be talking about two specific bodies of water, which are repeatedly referred to when so may other things - this does make sense in its historical context | ||
# The sea isn't permanently there, they completely change over time. Even the estuaries didn't exist when the Earth was made, so God letting the two bodies going free and a permanent barrier if false. | # The sea isn't permanently there, they completely change over time. Even the estuaries didn't exist when the Earth was made, so God letting the two bodies going free and a permanent barrier if false. | ||
# It doesn't say riverنھر (Nahar) and sea, which would have been a more accurate way to describe it if the mixing zone isn't part of either sea being mentioned but a 'barrier' - ''although to be fair every large body of water was referred to using this word in classical Arabic''. Also arguably 3 bodies of water, it could have stated something along the lines of one is mixed blocking the others - which would have been a closer description to a barrier. Should describe one as a river in this case | # It doesn't say riverنھر (Nahar) and sea, which would have been a more accurate way to describe it if the mixing zone isn't part of either sea being mentioned but a 'barrier' - ''although to be fair every large body of water was referred to using this word in classical Arabic''. Also arguably 3 bodies of water, it could have stated something along the lines of one is mixed blocking the others - which would have been a closer description to a barrier. Should describe one as a river in this case | ||
| Line 88: | Line 98: | ||
Figure 13: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)}} | Figure 13: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)}} | ||
* Leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two 'seas' | * Leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two 'seas' | ||
* verse 35:12 states ornaments for us to wear are from both seas, salty and sweet linking the coral and pearl this to the sweet and salty seas as repeated in verse 55:22, which coral also does not form in.. | |||
* Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them implies this is for two specific seas, while this phenomena occurs in many places, even the North Atlantic, South Atlantic the Pacific Oceans have different salt levels.<ref>Joseph L. Reid, [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0146631361900442 On the temperature, salinity, and density differences between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in the upper kilometre,] Deep Sea Research (1953), Volume 7, Issue 4, 1961, Pages 265-275, ISSN 0146-6313, <nowiki>https://doi.org/10.1016/0146-6313(61)90044-2</nowiki></ref> | * Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them implies this is for two specific seas, while this phenomena occurs in many places, even the North Atlantic, South Atlantic the Pacific Oceans have different salt levels.<ref>Joseph L. Reid, [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0146631361900442 On the temperature, salinity, and density differences between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in the upper kilometre,] Deep Sea Research (1953), Volume 7, Issue 4, 1961, Pages 265-275, ISSN 0146-6313, <nowiki>https://doi.org/10.1016/0146-6313(61)90044-2</nowiki></ref> | ||
* A sill https://www.britannica.com/science/sill. An aquatic sill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_sill (containing other examples of sills) | * A sill https://www.britannica.com/science/sill. An aquatic sill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_sill (containing other examples of sills) | ||
| Line 93: | Line 104: | ||
*BBC Science focus article on Atlantic and Pacific oceans mixing, and that previous videos showing non-mixing are incorrect https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/is-it-true-that-the-pacific-and-atlantic-oceans-dont-mix | *BBC Science focus article on Atlantic and Pacific oceans mixing, and that previous videos showing non-mixing are incorrect https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/is-it-true-that-the-pacific-and-atlantic-oceans-dont-mix | ||
*- such as this kind of sea https://ecobnb.com/blog/2018/11/denmark-two-seas/ - explore - two salty bodies of water? | |||
=== Refutation of the claim main points === | === Refutation of the claim main points === | ||
| Line 135: | Line 147: | ||
* (put this section below the Islamic views part)? | * (put this section below the Islamic views part)? | ||
* (Also Tommaso Tesei Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19) article has futrther arguments | * (Also Tommaso Tesei Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19) article has futrther arguments | ||
'''Map of world with encircling ocean https://scholarworks.boisestate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=history_facpubs#:~:text=Teasing%20apart%20the%20depictions%2C%20this,Sea)%2Cand%20Bu%E1%B8%A5ayratKhw%C4%81rizm(Aral''' | '''Map of world with encircling ocean (al-Baḥr al-Muḥīṭ''' https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/encyclopaedia-of-islam-2/al-bahr-al-muhit-SIM_1064) '''P57 KMMS map Karen C. Pinto. In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision https://scholarworks.boisestate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=history_facpubs#:~:text=Teasing%20apart%20the%20depictions%2C%20this,Sea)%2Cand%20Bu%E1%B8%A5ayratKhw%C4%81rizm(Aral''' | ||
'''Tomei Tomsei Cosmological notions (Tommaso Tesei Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19<nowiki/>)''' article on difficulty interpreting this verse, starting with the word saraban which has puzzled commentators + fish regaining life: All we know is that the fish breaks loose near a rock at the junction of the two seas and that this event indicates to Moses that he has reached the goal of his journey. When examined in light of a legend concerning Alexander’s journey to the Land of the Blessed, during which he fails to bathe in the water of life, the episode acquires more sense, however. Specifically, the fish’s escape represents an allusion to the resurrection of a salt ish after Alexander’s cook washes it in the water of life. The most ancient versions of this story are found in three sources preceding or contemporaneous to the rise of Islam: the Rec. β of the Alexander Romance (fourth/ifth century), the Babylonian Talmud (Tamīd, 32a–32b), and the so-called Syriac Alexander Song (ca. 630–635). Muslim exegetes introduced some elements of this legend in their explanation of the narrative told in the Quran. In fact, the ish’s escape episode is usually related to the motif of the water of life. 14 Western scholars, too, almost unanimously consider this story of Alexander to be behind the Quranic account. The motif of the source of life reported in the legend concerning Alexander should cer�tainly be understood in relation to the life-giving characteristics that Near Easterners attrib�uted to the sweet waters of the rivers. This concept is clearly manifested in the expression myʾ ḥyʾ, “living water,” that the author of the Syriac Alexander Song uses to designate the water of the miraculous source sought by Alexander.... | |||
When at v. 63 the Quran states that the ish “took its way in the sea in a marvelous way,” it evidently refers to its wondrously being revived upon contact with the miraculous water. In fact, the enigmatic episode acquires sense only if read in light of the dynamic described in the legend of the water of life, and the extreme vagueness with which the Quran describes the episode suggests that its audience was expected to be acquainted with the Alexander tale... | |||
By following this watercourse Alexander is able to reach the earthly paradise, which here takes the place of the Land of the Blessed. This version of the story of Alexander relects a simple idea that follows the literal understanding of Gen 2:10–14, namely, that the earthly paradise could be reached by following the course of one of the four rivers. 24 In fact, sources conirm that during late antiquity it was widely held that paradise was a physical place situ�ated on the other side of the ocean encircling the earth. 25 In accordance with this concept, it was generally assumed that the rivers lowing from paradise passed under this ocean to reach the inhabited part of the world. This idea goes back at least to Ephrem (d. ca. 373), who in his commentary on Genesis (§2, ¶6) states: “Paradise is set on a great height, the rivers are swallowed up again and they go down to the sea as if through a tall water duct (ʾyk d-mn qtrynʾ) and so they pass through the earth which is under the sea into this land,” 26 and was taken up by other late antique authors, such as the above-mentioned Philostorgius and Seve�rian of Gabala, but also Epiphanius of Salamis (d. 403) (Ancoratus, §58) and Augustine (d. 430) (Literal Meaning of Genesis, bk 8, §7; cf. Philo of Alexandria, Questions and Answers on Genesis, bk 1, §12). 27 The geographer Cosmas Indicopleustes (sixth century) also considers the four rivers to reach the inhabited world by following a subterranean course under the ocean: “the four rivers which divine scripture says emanate from Paradise cleave a pas�sage through the ocean and spring up in this earth” (Christian Topography, 2,81). 28 In his Homilies on Creation, the Syriac theologian and poet Narsai (d. 502) refers to a very similar concept about the course of the rivers from paradise to earth: “Glorious was its [paradise] spring, whose course lows at the four extremities [of the earth] / and like a pipe in the sea (w-ʾyk sylwʾ b-ymʾ), it passes [through it] without mixing [its water with it]” (Hom. 1, vv. 395–96)... | |||
identiication of the water of life with the rivers of paradise, as conirmed by Philostorgius and, more signiicantly, in the Talmudic version of the Alexander legend, and, on the other hand, the idea that these rivers lowed underground beneath the sea from paradise to the inhabited earth, as several authors report—it seems very likely that saraban in Q 18:63 is meant to describe the subterranean passage under the sea that the ish takes once resur�rected by the miraculous water of the paradisiacal rivers... | |||
The example of the life that rain brings to the arid soil (e.g., Q 43:11: “and Who sent down out of heaven water in measure; and We revived thereby a land that was dead; even so you shall be brought forth”) is often adduced as proof of God’s ability to resurrect from death. (life creating qualities of cosmic ocean).. | |||
In Quranic cosmology, this expression is possibly intended to designate a place that has a specific role in the passage of the heavenly waters to earth. In light of the above, one can imagine majmaʿ al-baḥrayn as the place where the heavenly and terrestrial oceans meet, and from where the sweet waters reach the earth, by way of an underground course alluded to by the expression saraban | |||
=== Islamic Views === | === Islamic Views === | ||