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In answer to your questions, no-one had been planning to bring it back. I think it was deleted and left in the archive during a clear out of scientific miracle articles (there used to be an excessive number with lots of very minor topics). This one may be worth a redo with some of the old content, but probably best to check with ASmith first who was involved in that process. [[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 01:11, 9 November 2023 (UTC) | In answer to your questions, no-one had been planning to bring it back. I think it was deleted and left in the archive during a clear out of scientific miracle articles (there used to be an excessive number with lots of very minor topics). This one may be worth a redo with some of the old content, but probably best to check with ASmith first who was involved in that process. [[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 01:11, 9 November 2023 (UTC) | ||
== A barrier between two seas == | == A barrier between two seas and the cosmic oceans == | ||
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When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them. | When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them. | ||
=== The Qur'an === | === The Qur'an === | ||
there is a consistent theme of 'the two seas' throughout the Qur'an' - break down word here? point out it's not general (which has no al particle) | |||
We are told that there are two seas (al-bahrain), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will ''never'' be passed. ''(verse straight after talks about creating humans)'' | We are told that there are two seas (al-bahrain), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will ''never'' be passed. ''(verse straight after talks about creating humans)'' | ||
{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}} | {{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}} | ||
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# This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sa<nowiki/>iling nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as they have done since ancient times<ref>''[https://www.bu.edu/archaeology/files/2016/05/Ancient-mariners-may-have-set-sail-130000-years-ago-_-Register-_-The-Times-The-Sunday-Times.pdf Ancient mariners may have set sail 130,000 years ago].'' ARCHAEOLOGY. The Times. Norman Hammond. 2016. Boston University Archive</ref>, as the colours are often different (as seen in the image X), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier between the two waters, | # This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sa<nowiki/>iling nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as they have done since ancient times<ref>''[https://www.bu.edu/archaeology/files/2016/05/Ancient-mariners-may-have-set-sail-130000-years-ago-_-Register-_-The-Times-The-Sunday-Times.pdf Ancient mariners may have set sail 130,000 years ago].'' ARCHAEOLOGY. The Times. Norman Hammond. 2016. Boston University Archive</ref>, as the colours are often different (as seen in the image X), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier between the two waters, | ||
# This description could be applied to someone believing there was no mixing at all between them - as there's no verse to say the 'barrier' contains mixed bodies of wate<nowiki/>r in the Quran verses. Hence no-body was able to discover anything new from the verse, and as observable (and arguably incorrect as we will discuss below), it is certainly not a miracle. | # This description could be applied to someone believing there was no mixing at all between them - as there's no verse to say the 'barrier' contains mixed bodies of wate<nowiki/>r in the Quran verses. Hence no-body was able to discover anything new from the verse, and as observable (and arguably incorrect as we will discuss below), it is certainly not a miracle. | ||
# Density of salt water is more than freshwater.<nowiki/> This was first discovered by Aristotle. “The drinkable, sweet water, then, is light and is all of it drawn up: the salt <nowiki/>water is heavy and remains behind.” -Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC)<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref> But not like Water and oil which are immiscible (i.e. they don't mix). | |||
# Density of salt water is more than freshwater.<nowiki/> This was first discovered by Aristotle. “The drinkable, sweet water, then, is light and is all of it drawn up: the salt <nowiki/>water is heavy and remains behind.” -Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC)<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref> | |||
# There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them [https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html here]), however despite what it may look like on<nowiki/> the surface they all mix to varying degrees - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they cannot pass<nowiki/>https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html A pycnocline zone, and more specifically, a halocline zone, is always a mixture of fresh water and salt water. It is a product of their mixing. In case of salt water and fresh water, there cannot be density discontinuity. The later can only be present if two liquids are immiscible, for example water and oil. | # There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them [https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html here]), however despite what it may look like on<nowiki/> the surface they all mix to varying degrees - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they cannot pass<nowiki/>https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html A pycnocline zone, and more specifically, a halocline zone, is always a mixture of fresh water and salt water. It is a product of their mixing. In case of salt water and fresh water, there cannot be density discontinuity. The later can only be present if two liquids are immiscible, for example water and oil. | ||
# In {{Quran|25|53}} We are told that there are specifically '''the''' '''two seas(l-baḥrayni) using the definite particle 'al/the' for a specific two seas, | # In {{Quran|25|53}} We are told that there are specifically '''the''' '''two seas(l-baḥrayni) using the definite particle 'al/the' for a specific two seas, baḥr for large body of water/sea, and ending in ain meaning there are two of them)''' one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass. Yet this happens in many places (i.e. more than two) all across the world - why would it be talking about two seas with the definite 'al' particle (arguably it happens with all sweet and salty water/less dense water). Why is would be talking about two specific bodies of water, which are repeatedly referred to when so may other things - this does make sense in its historical context | ||
# The sea isn't permanently there, they completely change over time. Even the estuaries didn't exist when the Earth was made, so God letting the two bodies going free and a permanent barrier if false. | # The sea isn't permanently there, they completely change over time. Even the estuaries didn't exist when the Earth was made, so God letting the two bodies going free and a permanent barrier if false. | ||
# It doesn't say riverنھر (Nahar) and sea, which would have been a more accurate way to describe it if the mixing zone isn't part of either sea being mentioned but a 'barrier' - ''although to be fair every large body of water was referred to using this word in classical Arabic''. Also arguably 3 bodies of water, it could have stated something along the lines of one is mixed blocking the others - which would have been a closer description to a barrier. Should describe one as a river in this case | # It doesn't say riverنھر (Nahar) and sea, which would have been a more accurate way to describe it if the mixing zone isn't part of either sea being mentioned but a 'barrier' - ''although to be fair every large body of water was referred to using this word in classical Arabic''. Also arguably 3 bodies of water, it could have stated something along the lines of one is mixed blocking the others - which would have been a closer description to a barrier. Should describe one as a river in this case. Small rivers would especially not be a good description here | ||
# Estuary water sweet and palatable or filled with dirt? Estuary water often is salty as well (not just sweet), and dirty. Not an accurate description<ref>[https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est01_whatis.html#:~:text=The%20mixture%20of%20seawater%20and,%2C%20weather%2C%20or%20other%20factors. What is an Estuary?] National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration</ref> | # Estuary water sweet and palatable or filled with dirt? Estuary water often is salty as well (not just sweet), and dirty. Not an accurate description<ref>[https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est01_whatis.html#:~:text=The%20mixture%20of%20seawater%20and,%2C%20weather%2C%20or%20other%20factors. What is an Estuary?] National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration</ref> | ||
# | # | ||
'''<br />What it doesn't say''' | '''<br />What it doesn't say''' | ||
Where rivers and seas meet, often there is a barrier between them | |||
There is no need to describe something inaccurately, as they don't describe many other natural processes | There is no need to describe something inaccurately, as they don't describe many other natural processes - e.e.g formation of deserts and forest, could have jsut left out | ||
A good easy to read guide on these issues for those interest is CostalWiki https://www.coastalwiki.org/wiki/Salt_wedge_estuaries | A good easy to read guide on these issues for those interest is CostalWiki https://www.coastalwiki.org/wiki/Salt_wedge_estuaries | ||
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*BBC Science focus article on Atlantic and Pacific oceans mixing, and that previous videos showing non-mixing are incorrect https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/is-it-true-that-the-pacific-and-atlantic-oceans-dont-mix | *BBC Science focus article on Atlantic and Pacific oceans mixing, and that previous videos showing non-mixing are incorrect https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/is-it-true-that-the-pacific-and-atlantic-oceans-dont-mix | ||
*- such as this kind of sea https://ecobnb.com/blog/2018/11/denmark-two-seas/ - explore - two salty bodies of water? | *- such as this kind of sea https://ecobnb.com/blog/2018/11/denmark-two-seas/ - explore - two salty bodies of water? | ||
*When did the Gibraltar sill get created? Not permanent | |||
=== Refutation of the claim main points === | === Refutation of the claim main points === | ||
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== External links == | == External links == | ||
* https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran - Previous Wikiislam page on this 'miracle' | * https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran - ''Previous Wikiislam page on this 'miracle''' | ||
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9Voh0xLLUw&t=105s Waters that Never mix] - ''YouTube video'' | * [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9Voh0xLLUw&t=105s Waters that Never mix] - ''YouTube video'' | ||
== References == | == References == | ||