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A barrier between two seas and the cosmic oceans

Order

1. Intro
2. What they Quran says - short paragraph on the science
3. Apologist claim? here or above the science?
4. Why is it incorrect - the science and refutation of apologist claim.
5. refutation of apologist claim
6. Why is it incorrect
7. Other groups that have the same mythology
8. Who knew that salt and fresh water didn't mix - Archimides
9. The historical context

Main page image to upload (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tSZVB0TTdpOtG0Y5sUbrCrsBiiHFZ-Io/view?usp=sharing). Rights brought from iStock to use on website.https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/estuary-difference-between-fresh-water-and-sea-water-from-above-gm1462114312-495765419?phrase=estuary+freshwater+saltwater&searchscope=image%2Cfilm

Introduction

The Quran refers to two different bodies of water, emphasising there is one sweet and one fresh, and that they meet but there is a batter between them. Both early and medieval Muslims, and modern Academic scholarship, have identified this with an ancient belief of there being a cosmic ocean of water surrounding the world.^[1] Other classical scholars have attributed it to the way fresh water bodies of water are separate to the salty seas and oceans in general, rather than two specific bodies of water not taking the verse literally.^[2][3]

Some modern Muslims have tried to reconcile the relevant verses with natural phenomena, including estuaries meeting the sea, and different seas having different salt levels. However critics do not believe the verses accurately describe this, and actually conflicts with the description in several key aspects as will be stated in the article. When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them.

The Qur'an

There is a consistent theme of 'the two seas' ("al-baḥrayn, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), with the exact same term being used 5 times in the Quran.

We are told that there are two seas ("al-baḥrayn, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will never be passed.

Q55:22 quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching^[4]:

And again in Q35:12 we are told the two seas with one being freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter). But from both come fresh meat (presumably fish) and ornaments to wear come from both (presumably coral and pearl as mentioned above in verse Q 55:22):

Again, there is a barrier between the two seas.

Another reference to "the two seas" is found in the story of Moses and his servant, where he meets a man (Al-Khidr) who has special knowledge of events that have not yet happened from god, and tests Moses to carry out seemingly immoral tasks without asking him why:

The full story of Moses ad Al-Khidr can be found at the bottom of the page for context.

Apologists claims

Estuaries and salt water

Apologists claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them, and even that the descriptions show advanced knowledge of science that could not have been known to a human. You can see the images referenced in this link which are repeated on many Islamic websites.

The first claim is around fresh water from rivers meeting seas/oceans of salt water, with the transition stage known as estuaries:

Note that in the above referenced claim in the book (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman), they have added the words “Zone of Separation” and “The partition" onto Figure 4 (saying “with slight enhancement”), which the book itself does not do - clearly to link the word 'partition' as translated into English by several authors in the Quran with the scientific book.

Issues with this interpretation

Problems with miracle claim

Critics point to issue's with inserting this is a scientific miracle, or even scientifically accurate:

1. Firstly as with all claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clearly described a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into typical categories of selective literalism, de-historicization and pseudo-corelation etc. (see Scientific Miracles in the Quran), taking advantage of ambiguity in language to fit a modern reading rather than an honest one.
2. The idea of the density of salt water being more than freshwater was already known to be discovered by Aristotle. “The drinkable, sweet water, then, is light and is all of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.” - Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC)^[5]
3. This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sailing nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as they have done since ancient times^[6], as the colours are often different (as seen in the image on this page), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier placed by God between the two waters.
4. This description also implies there is no mixing between them at all, and could just as easily be written by someone believing that someone believing there was no mixing at all between them.

A deeper analysis can be found on the now defunct and archived former Wikiislam website' page on scientific miracles Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran.

Problems with general accuracy

We are told that there are specifically the two seas (al-baḥrayn).

• This uses the definite particle 'al' for 'the' for a specific two seas, not general.
• 'baḥr' for large body of water/sea.
• the dual suffix/ending in 'ayn' means there are two of them, as apposed to singular or plural (3 or more).

1. Yet this happens in many places (there are over 1,200 documented estuaries,^[7] i.e. more than two) across the world - nowhere does the language suggest this is the case, as to match this Qur'an verse it must be referring to a single specific but unnamed estuary. There are many far better ways to phrase this if it meant this phenomena.
2. There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. Salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them here and on CostalWiki for accessible science), however despite what it may look like on the surface they all mix to varying degrees - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they cannot pass. A pycnocline zone, and more specifically, a halocline zone, is always a mixture of fresh water and salt water - in fact it is a product of their mixing.
3. It does not use the word specifically for river (نھر "Nahar" - a word also used elsewhere in the Qur'an to describe a river) and sea, which would have been an accurate way to describe it. There is no need to describe something inaccurately, as they don't describe many other natural processes - e.g. formation of deserts and forest, and so could have just left it out completely and avoided confusion.
4. If the mixing zones isn't part of either 'sea' being mentioned but a 'barrier', then there are arguably 3 bodies of water in, and the language could reflect the mixing zone by stating that one of them is made of both sweet and salty water (brackish water^[8]). This also would separate it from the other specific seas being referred to as we will discuss in the next section.

Two actual seas

Secondly, it states:

Problems with miracle claim and general science

• Firstly, it is a leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two 'seas' mentioned in Quran 55:19-20 from the others, as they all use the same word.
• Verse 35:12 states ornaments for us to wear are from both seas, salty and sweet linking the coral and pearl this to the sweet and salty seas as repeated in verse 55:22, which coral also does not form in.
• Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them implies this is for two specific seas, while this phenomena occurs in many places, even the North Atlantic, South Atlantic the Pacific Oceans have different salt levels.^[9] And there are more examples of sills^[10], with some notable examples given here - which does not match a single specific case as the definite article used in the Quran suggests.
• For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing, this is not true, as Piers Chapman of Texas A&M University writes on Waterencyclopedia^[11]: 'Mixing in the ocean occurs on several scales.. The best-known example of this process, known as salt fingering, occurs where very salty water from the Mediterranean outflow mixes into the North Atlantic... Most mixing, however, takes place on larger scales in response to forcing by the wind'

Historical context - Moses and Al-Khidr

Antiquity interpretation

Other classical interpretations - Ptolemy's view?

There is another interpretation for this verse which many critics argue is the only one to accurately fit this verse on a literal reading (which there appears to be no reason it shouldn't be as God's word), which we will discuss below in the historical context. Which fits a prevalent antiquity (and pre-antiquity) view which was present across this region, and is held in biblical cosmology and later Christian/Jewish exegesis, that this refers to a somewhat magical cosmic ocean surrounding the Earth.

Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, critics argue that the verse in question is scientifically wrong.

The antiquity view is well summarised in Tommaso Tesei's article 'Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context' (https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19) which examines the Qur'ans verse, especially regarding words that have puzzled Islamic commentators. The full article can be read in the link which provides much deeper arguments than the summary:

[Do I need full story for context of what it's referring to here? Or just a summary of the story]Tomei Tomsei Cosmological notions (Tommaso Tesei Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19) The story is taken from the Syriac Alexander Legend, which separate part of this chapter 18 Surah al-Kahf come from (see Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance)

The two seas in Islamic literature

After Quran 18:60 says he won't give up until he reaches the two seas, or has progressed for many ages, implying this junction is extremely far from any land, taking longer than any journey on our actual oceans would take. For example Christopher Columbus's journeys to America in the 1,400's took around 4 weeks to 6 months depending on the wind and weather.^[12] Which should have been far longer than any close ocean as later Islamic scholars have suggested

In this story Moses goes with a 'servant of God' at the junction of the two seas, who is unnamed in the Qur'an but called 'Al-Khidr' in the Hadith. This man has extremely accurate foreknowledge of both future events and human nature (predestination), so he carries out seemingly strange immoral and tasks and asks Moses not to ask him about them - however Moses does, so after three events Al-Khidr parts ways with him and tells him why he committed the acts. He made a hole in the boat so it couldn't. His knowledge is so great and usually only reserved for God, yet he is able to teach such an importatn prophet as Moses and get annoyed with him - this fits coming from a special sea.

Only he will stop - remove long unnecessary section if it doesn't add anything Quran 18:60-82

This verse is expanded upon here: Sahih Bukhari 4:55:613

• Someone who has this foresight inclusion - future events and human nature (predestination) (ship sinking, boy becoming an unbeliever, orphans finding treasure) makes sense coming from god's sea - and disappears there after Moses keeps asking questions - this makes sense with them coming from a supernatural cosmic ocean

Usually appears after creation events: Q55:22 is mentioned just after creating humans and jinn, (Quran 35:12 following creation of humans from clay.), and 27:61 - verse before mentions creating the heavens and the Earth.

Islamic Views

Hadith and Qur'an

In the two most authoritative hadith collections, we see in Sahih Bukhari that Muhammad is recorded as saying that when going into the seven heavens on a night journey (see Buraq), the rivers in paradise came to Earth via the Nile and Euphrates. This clearly backs up the idea that fresh water comes in via a freshwater cosmic ocean

And this idea is backed up in Sahih Muslim:

From this Quran verse we see the highest heaven has a sea:

As well as a hadith in Sunan Ibn Majah's collection, which although is rated 'weak', show's early Muslim understanding of the verses sea in the sky, above the seventh heaven:

Islamic Commentaries

Al-Qurtubi, a prominent Sunni Scholar

Similarly Ibn Kathir

later commentaries after the flat earth model was rejected by astronomers state this barrier refers to land

This is obviously incorrect as coral doesn't form in fresh water, let alone springs. And the rivers are especially not connected - so is not a barrier between two seas?

large lakes referred to as seas, there is not a barrier between them. There are many lakes, springs and lagoons all over the world, they are not one body of water as the quran claims.

(https://islamqa.info/en/answers/165094/tafseer-of-the-verse-he-has-let-loose-the-two-seas-the-salt-water-and-the-sweet-meeting-together-between-them-is-a-barrier-which-none-of-them-can-transgress-ar-rahmaan-5519-20)

Al-Tabari end of the Earth https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=1&tSoraNo=55&tAyahNo=19&tDisplay=yes&Page=2&Size=1&LanguageId=1

This idea of a cosmic ocean also has strong connections to the Islamic whale swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back, a view held by most major traditional Islamic scholars on their Qur'an commentaries such as Al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Ar-Razi, Al Qurtubi etc.

Map of world with encircling ocean (al-Baḥr al-Muḥīṭ https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/encyclopaedia-of-islam-2/al-bahr-al-muhit-SIM_1064) P57 KMMS map Karen C. Pinto. In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision https://scholarworks.boisestate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=history_facpubs#:~:text=Teasing%20apart%20the%20depictions%2C%20this,Sea)%2Cand%20Bu%E1%B8%A5ayratKhw%C4%81rizm(Aral

The Biblical and Judeo-Christian background literature

The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedents of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature.

The bible itself also contains a sea above the Earth

Other religions an cosmic waters

This may be compared to the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".^[13] Wensinck explains,^[14] "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative).

Critics also wonder why if it really meant a natural phenomena such as the meeting of two seas, why would they describe one that also matched a highly mistaken antiquity view of teh world - for exmaple there is nothing about the creation of forests or deserts. The lines are not needed nor do they add anything to the text.

Delete

The sea and rivers aren't permanently there, they completely change over time. Even the estuaries didn't exist when the Earth was made, so God letting the two bodies going free and a permanent barrier is false. Partition forbidden to pass - uses term for never - however entre sealine changes over time with rivers broken down and destroyed - and current 'seas' 'barrier' breaks down over time

Salt vs seawater - is estuary water sweet and palatable or filled with dirt?

• BBC Science focus article on Atlantic and Pacific oceans mixing, and that previous videos showing non-mixing are incorrect https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/is-it-true-that-the-pacific-and-atlantic-oceans-dont-mix
• - such as this kind of sea https://ecobnb.com/blog/2018/11/denmark-two-seas/ - explore - two salty bodies of water?
• When did the Gibraltar sill get created? Not permanent
• Scientific claim - Quran says absolutely nothing about different densities, hence no-one ever thought it did until many years after the discovery - Scientist William Hayes denouncing miracle claim (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eziurUGGens&list=PLC0D4187BE2661850&index=2)

External links

• https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran - Previous Wikiislam page on this 'miracle'
• Waters that Never mix - YouTube video

References