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A barrier between two seas and the cosmic ocean

Google Drive to get images from: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1v3EG_ZAnHjDyn2nkLiBJv-W53tZ-vFY9?usp=sharing.

Introduction

The Quran refers to two different bodies of water, emphasizing there is one sweet and one fresh, and that they meet but there is a barrier between them. Both early and medieval Muslims, and modern Academic scholarship, have identified this with an ancient belief of there being a cosmic ocean of water surrounding the world.^[1] Other classical scholars have attributed it to the way fresh water bodies of water are separate to the salty seas and oceans in general, rather than two specific bodies of water, not taking the verse literally.^[2]^[3]

Some modern Muslims have tried to reconcile the relevant verses with natural phenomena, including estuaries meeting the sea, and different seas having different salt levels. However the verses do not accurately describe this, and actually conflict with the description as will be pointed out in the article. When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them.

The Qur'an

There is a consistent theme of 'the two seas' ("al-baḥrayni, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), with the exact term being used 5 times in the Quran.

We are told that there are two seas ("al-baḥrayni, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salty and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will never be passed.

It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.

Quran 25:53

Q55:22 quoted below states that coral emerges from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching.^[4]

He released the two seas, meeting [side by side]; Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses. So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? From both of them emerge pearl and coral.

Quran 55:19-22

And again in Q35:12 we are told the two seas with one being freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter). But from both come fresh meat (presumably fish) and ornaments to wear come from both (presumably coral and pearl as mentioned above in verse Q 55:22).

And the two seas are not alike: this, fresh, sweet, good to drink, this (other) bitter, salt. And from them both ye eat fresh meat and derive the ornament that ye wear. And thou seest the ship cleaving them with its prow that ye may seek of His bounty, and that haply ye may give thanks.

Quran 35:12

Again, there is a barrier between the two seas.

Is He [not best] who made the earth a stable ground and placed within it rivers and made for it firmly set mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier? Is there a deity with Allah? [No], but most of them do not know.

Quran 27:61

Another reference to "the two seas" is found in the story of Moses and his servant, where he meets a man (Al-Khidr) who has special knowledge of events that have not yet happened from god, and tests Moses to carry out seemingly immoral tasks without asking him why:

And [mention] when Moses said to his servant, "I will not cease [traveling] until I reach the junction of the two seas or continue for a long period." But when they reached the junction between them, they forgot their fish, and it took its course into the sea, slipping away.

Quran 18:60-61

The full story of Moses and Al-Khidr can be found lower on this page for context.

Apologists claims

Estuaries and salt water

Apologists claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them, and even that the descriptions show advanced knowledge of science that could not have been known to a person from the 7th century. You can see the images referenced in this link which are repeated on many Islamic websites.

The first claim is around fresh water from rivers meeting seas/oceans of salt water, with the transition stage known as estuaries:

(((EDITORS: Are you able to add Picture 2 in the quote box below (as shown in the Islamic website please)))

Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water. (see Figure 4)

[add Picture 2 here]

Figure 4: Longitudinal section showing salinity (parts per thousand ‰) in an estuary. We can see here the partition (zone of separation) between the fresh and the salt water. (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, p. 301, with a slight enhancement.)

This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation).

"From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.", https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm.

Note that in the above referenced claim in the book (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman), they have added the words “Zone of Separation” and “The partition" onto Figure 4 (saying “with slight enhancement”), which the book itself does not have - clearly to link the word 'partition' (as translated into English by several official translators of the Quran) with the scientific book.

Issues with this interpretation

Problems with miracle claim

There are big issues with claiming this is a scientific miracle (and even scientifically accurate):

Firstly as with all claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clearly described a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into several typical categories used for these claims such as selective literalism, de-historicization and pseudo-corelation (see Scientific Miracles in the Quran), taking advantage of ambiguity in language to fit a modern reading..
The idea of the density of salt water being more than freshwater, separating the two was already known at least by the time of Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC); “The drinkable, sweet water, l of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.”^[5]
This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sailing nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as humans have sailed since ancient times,^[6] and the colours are often different (as seen in the image on this page), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier placed by God between the two waters.
This description implies there is no mixing between them at all, and could just as easily be written by someone incorrectly believing this.

A deeper analysis can be found on the now defunct and archived former (more polemical) Wikiislam website' page on scientific miracles Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran.

Problems with general accuracy

We are told that there are specifically the two seas (al-baḥrayni).

This uses the definite particle 'al' for 'the' for a specific two seas, not general.
'baḥr' بحر for large body of water/sea.
the dual suffix/ending in 'ayni' -ين means there are two of them, as opposed to singular or plural (3 or more in Arabic).

Yet this happens in many places (there are over 1,200 documented estuaries,^[7] i.e. more than two) across the world - nowhere does the language suggest this is the case, as to match this Qur'an verse it must be referring to a single specific but unnamed estuary. There are many far better ways to phrase this if it meant this natural and general phenomena.
There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. Salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them here and on CostalWiki for accessible science for the general reader), however despite what it may look like on the surface they all mix to varying degrees - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they are forbidden to pass.
It does not use the word specifically for river (نھر "Nahar" - a word also used elsewhere in the Qur'an to describe a river) and sea, which would have been an accurate way to describe it.
If the mixing zones aren't part of either 'sea' being mentioned but a 'barrier', then there are 3 bodies of water in this, and the language could reflect the mixing zone by stating that one of them is made of both sweet and salty water (brackish water^[8]). This also would separate it from the other specific seas being referred to as we will discuss in the next section.

Two actual seas

Secondly, it states the verses not specifically mentioning sweet and salty waters are referring to different seas with different kinds of waters (again click the link to see the images):

(((EDITORS: Are you able to add Picture 3 in the quote box below (as shown in the Islamic website please)))

Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density. For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water. When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometres into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics. The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth (see figure 13).

[add Picture 3 here]

Figure 13: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)

"From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.", https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm.

Problems with miracle claim and general science

Firstly, it is a leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two 'seas' mentioned in Quran 55:19-20 from the others, as they all use the same phrase to refer to a specific two seas it is implied the audience is already familiar with.
Quran 35:12 states ornaments for us to wear are from both seas, salty and sweet linking the coral and pearl this to the sweet and salty seas as repeated in verse 55:22.
Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them means this is for two specific seas, while this phenomena occurs in many places, even the North Atlantic, South Atlantic the Pacific Oceans have different salt levels.^[9] And there are more examples of aquatic sills^[10], with some notable examples given here - which does not match a single specific case as the definite article used in the Quran suggests. For vertically mixed zones where salinity changes rapidly, a pycnocline zone, and more specifically, a halocline zone^[11], is always a mixture of fresh water and salt water - in fact it is a product of their mixing.
For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing, this is not true, as Piers Chapman of Texas A&M University writes on Waterencyclopedia^[12]: 'Mixing in the ocean occurs on several scales.. The best-known example of this process, known as salt fingering, occurs where very salty water from the Mediterranean outflow mixes into the North Atlantic... Most mixing, however, takes place on larger scales in response to forcing by the wind'.

Historical context

Antiquity interpretation

There is another interpretation that is the only one to accurately fit the verses on a literal plain reading, which is discussed below. This fits a prevalent antiquity (and pre-antiquity) view that was present across the region, and also held in biblical cosmology and later Christian/Jewish exegesis at the time of Mohammad, that this refers to a somewhat magical cosmic ocean surrounding the Earth.

This likely originates from ancient Mesopotamian myths, such as the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".^[13] Wensinck explains,^[14] "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites".

Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due to a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative). Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, the verse in question is scientifically wrong.

The view in its historical context is well summarised in Tommaso Tesei's 2015 article 'Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context', examining the Qur'ans verse on Moses meeting a servant at the meeting of the two seas, which he claims is influenced by a story of Alexander the Great (see Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance), which also features in this Surah. The main discussion is on verses:

18:60 (Consider) when Moses said to his young companion, "I shall continue travelling until I reach the junction of the two seas or have travelled for many ages". 18:61 But when they reached the Junction, they forgot (about) their Fish, which took its course through the sea (straight) as in a tunnel. 18:62 When they had passed on (some distance), Moses said to his attendant: "Bring us our early meal; truly we have suffered much fatigue at this (stage of) our journey." 18:63 He replied: "Sawest thou (what happened) when we betook ourselves to the rock? I did indeed forget (about) the Fish: none but Satan made me forget to tell (you) about it: it took its course through the sea in a marvellous way!" 18:64 Moses said: "That was what we were seeking after:" So they went back on their footsteps, following (the path they had come). 18:65 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge.

Quran 18:60-65

The full article from Tommaso, which is recommended to read to understand the context, can be read in the link on JSTOR for free by making an account, which provides a full overview.

The Quran states that Moses is able to reach “the junction of the two seas” (majmaʿ al-baḥrayni), where he meets a Servant of God. It states that he is able to reach it after hearing from his young attendant about the fish that they were carrying with them (for food) escaping. This is twice referred to, in Q18:61 and v63. In both cases the dynamic is described by exactly the same phrase, with v63 ending in ʿajaban, which is commonly translated as “wondrously” or “in a marvellous way,” and 'saraban', which has caused problems and disagreements among Muslim commentators:

...the root s-r-b is found in three other Quranic passages—sarāb (“mirage”) in 24:39 and 78:20, and sārib (“to go forth or away”) in 13:10—sarab is a Quranic hapax legomenon, that is, it appears only once. One way to understand saraban is to read it as the accusative of sarab, which means “tunnel” or “subterranean excavation.” Then the phrase in v. 61 can be translated as either “and it took its way in the sea by way of a subterranean excavation” or “and it took its way: a subterranean excavation in the sea,” depending on whether saraban is considered an accusative of circumstance (ḥāl) or a second direct object (the irst being sabīlahu) of the verb ittakhadha.

Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. pages 19 - 32. Pp. 21. Tommaso Tesei. American Oriental Society. Vol. 135, No. 1

The puzzled commentators have given rise to a number of conflicting interpretations by later Muslims^[15] starting from the mid-8th century exegesis, who often came up with miraculous/magical stories to link the dead fish escaping with a tunnel (a summary is provided in the article). Tommaso states that such attempts to relate the path the fish takes in the sea to passage on land are direct consequences of the apparent discordance between the meaning of the word sarab, “subterranean passage,” and the place where it is said to be found: the sea. It seems the later commentators did not have the full story it arose from. With the story matching a common motif of the water of life surrounding the Earth that could give life to the dead:

All we know is that the fish breaks loose near a rock at the junction of the two seas and that this event indicates to Moses that he has reached the goal of his journey. When examined in light of a legend concerning Alexander’s journey to the Land of the Blessed, during which he fails to bathe in the water of life, the episode acquires more sense, however. Specifically, the fish’s escape represents an allusion to the resurrection of a salt fish after Alexander’s cook washes it in the water of life... ...Muslim exegetes introduced some elements of this legend in their explanation of the narrative told in the Quran. In fact, the fish’s escape episode is usually related to the motif of the water of life. Western scholars, too, almost unanimously consider this story of Alexander to be behind the Quranic account. The motif of the source of life reported in the legend concerning Alexander should certainly be understood in relation to the life-giving characteristics that Near Easterners attributed to the sweet waters of the rivers...

Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. pages 19 - 32. Pp. 22. Tommaso Tesei. American Oriental Society. Vol. 135, No. 1

Islamic scholar Gabriel Said Reynolds also notes this 'junction between two seas' (and other verses mentioning the two seas) as likely meaning the waters of the heaven. He also provides a translation of the relevant sections from the Alexander Song in his 2018 book "The Quran and Bible: Text and Commentary",^[16] which seems to have influenced the story (again see Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance):

The Macedonian king, the son of Philip spoke: / “I have determined to follow a great quest to reach the lands, / even the furthest lands, / to reach the seas, and the coasts, and the borders as they are; / Above all to enter and to see the land of darkness / if it is truly as I heard it is.”

(Song of Alexander, recension 1, p. 26, ll. 33–38)

Then [Alexander’s cook] came to the spring, which contained the lifegiving water / he came close to it, in order to wash the fish in water, but it came alive and escaped; The poor man was afraid that the king would blame him / that he give back the [value of the] fish, which had come to life and which he did not stop. So he got down into the water, in order to catch it, but was unable / then he climbed out from there in order to tell the king that he had found [the spring] He called, but no one heard him, and so he went to a mountain from where they heard him / the king was glad when he heard about the spring. The king turned around in order to bathe [in the spring] as he had sought to do / and they went from the mountain in the middle of darkness, but they could not reach it.

(Song of Alexander, recension 1, pp. 48–50, ll. 182–92)

Gabriel Said Reynolds, "The Quran and Bible:Text and Commentary", New Haven: Yale University Press, 2018 pp. 464-465

This also explains why the fish (which was their food, i.e. dead) then comes back to life and takes to the sea in a 'marvellous' way (it is worth pointing out the obvious that there is no sea on Earth that can revive dead animals):

When at v. 63 the Quran states that the fish “took its way in the sea in a marvellous way,” it evidently refers to its wondrously being revived upon contact with the miraculous water. In fact, the enigmatic episode acquires sense only if read in light of the dynamic described in the legend of the water of life, and the extreme vagueness with which the Quran describes the episode suggests that its audience was expected to be acquainted with the Alexander tale...

Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. pages 19 - 32. Pp. 23. Tommaso Tesei. American Oriental Society. Vol. 135, No. 1

Similar to other religious near-East sources:

..This version of the story of Alexander reflects a simple idea that follows the literal understanding of Gen 2:10–14, namely, that the earthly paradise could be reached by following the course of one of the four rivers. In fact, sources confirm that during late antiquity it was widely held that paradise was a physical place situated on the other side of the ocean encircling the earth. In accordance with this concept, it was generally assumed that the rivers lowing from paradise passed under this ocean to reach the inhabited part of the world... (pp. 24)

..identification of the water of life with the rivers of paradise, as confirmed by Philostorgius and, more significantly, in the Talmudic version of the Alexander legend, and, on the other hand, the idea that these rivers lowed underground beneath the sea from paradise to the inhabited earth, as several authors report—it seems very likely that saraban in Q 18:63 is meant to describe the subterranean passage under the sea that the fish takes once resurrected by the miraculous water of the paradisiacal rivers... (pp. 25)

In Quranic cosmology, this expression is possibly intended to designate a place that has a specific role in the passage of the heavenly waters to earth. In light of the above, one can imagine majmaʿ al-baḥrayn as the place where the heavenly and terrestrial oceans meet, and from where the sweet waters reach the earth, by way of an underground course alluded to by the expression saraban.. (pp. 29)

Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. pages 19 - 32. Pp. 23. Tommaso Tesei. American Oriental Society. Vol. 135, No. 1

The Biblical and Judeo-Christian background literature

The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedents of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature. The Bible itself also contains a sea above the Earth:

(Genesis 1:6-10) 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

"Genesis 1:10", https://biblia.com/books/kjv1900/Ge1.6.

Islamic Scholar Angelika Neuwirth notes in her commentary on verses 55:19-22, that the text, along with many other verses, contains calls to the Palms:

V. 19–22 maraja l-baḥrayni yaltaqiyān / baynahumā barzakhun lā yabghiyān / fa-bi-ayyi ālāʾi rabbikumā tukadhdhibān / yakhruju minhumā l-luʾluʾu wa-marjān] The myth of the division of the waters, to which verses 19–20 allude, is unfolded in detail in Psalms 104:5–9: yasad ereṣ ʿal mekhoneha, bal timmoṭ ʿolam wa- ʿed / tehom ka-levush kissito, ʿal harim ya ʿamdu mayim / min ga ʿaratkha yenussun, min qol raʿamkha yeḥafezun / ya ʿalu harim yeredu veqaʿot, el me-qom zeh yassadta lahem / gevul samta bal ya ʿavorun, bal yeshuvun le-khassot ha-areṣ (“He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved // You covered it with the watery depths as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains. / But at Your rebuke the waters fled / at the sound of Your thunder they took to flight; // they flowed over the mountains, they went down into the valleys, to the place you assigned for them. // You set a boundary they cannot cross; never again will they cover the earth.”). On the entire thematics of the sea in v. 19–24, see Barthod (1929) and Zaki (2001). In regard to the rhetorical form of v. 22, it is striking that again a pair of products of the sea—here with contrasting colors—is named. V. 24 wa-lahu l-jawāri l-munshaʾātu fī l-baḥri ka-l-aʿlām] The perception of the astonishing majesty of the sea (as in Q 55:19–22) transitions also in the Psalm into wonder at the phenomenon of sea travel, see Psalms 104:25–26: zeh ha-yam godol u-reḥav yadayim, sham remesh we-en mispar ḥayyot qeṭannot ʿim gedolot / sham oniyot yehallekhun (“There is the sea, vast and spacious, teeming with creatures beyond number, living things both large and small. / There the ships go to and fro”).

Neuwirth, Angelika. The Qur'an: Text and Commentary, Volume 1: Early Meccan Suras: Poetic Prophecy (p. 371). Yale University Press.

Pre-Islamic poetry

The fact that the Qur'an addresses its audience with the claim of the two (specific not general) seas, without giving more explanation or context about what they are or where, also suggests the initial audience were acquainted with its meaning. We can see these views were also prevalent in Arabia at the time of Mohammad's preaching as this poem from a contemporary of Muhammad mentions the Earth being settled on the waters:

daḥāhā falammā raʾādā istawat ʿalā l-māʾi arsā ʿalayhā l-jibālā / He spread it out and when He saw that it was settled upon the waters, He fixed the mountains upon it

Poem attributed to Zayd b. 'Amr, as found for example in Ibn Al Jawzi's Al Muntazam,^[17] and Ibn Ishaq's biography of Muhammad (as translated from Ibn Ishaq by Guillaume^[18] and transliterated by Bravmann^[19])

Post-Islamic Poetry

We further see the cosmic ocean continue to appear in poetry from respected Muslim poets, such as by Dhu'l-Nun Al-Misri (d. 859), who was born in Akhmim, upper Egypt and was an Egyptian Sufi Master. He was considered the Patron Saint of the Physicians in the early Islamic era of Egypt and is credited with having introduced the concept of Gnosis into Islam.^[20] In his Qasida 'Hymn of Creation', we find:

He created the vault of the heavens, their hosts in forms celestial, moving through ethereal oceans, the paths of the Zodiac following.

(Translation by Paul Smith in) Anthology of Classical Arabic Poetry (From Pre-Islamic Times to Ibn ‘Arabi). New Humanity Books. Kindle Edition. Locations 4668 - 4680

This view has more evidence from Islamic sources.

Islamic Literature - The two seas in the story Moses and Al-Khidr

In Quran 18:60 Moses states that he won't give up until he reaches the two seas, or has progressed for many 'ages' (in Arabic huquban حُقُبًا) , with the word implying this junction is extremely far from land (many translators such as Yusuf Khan, Shakir and Muhsin Khan translate it as 'years'), taking longer than any journey on our actual oceans would take. For example Christopher Columbus's journeys to America in the 1,400's took around 4 weeks to 6 months depending on the wind and weather.^[21] This suggests the author thought it was very far away from the Middle East where Moses is said to have preached.

This story continues where Moses goes with a 'servant of God' at the junction of the two seas, who is unnamed in the Qur'an but called 'Al-Khidr' in the Hadith. This man has extremely accurate foreknowledge of both future events and human nature (predestination), so he carries out seemingly strange immoral tasks and tells Moses to be patient and not ask him about them; these are making a hole in a boat to sink it, killing a young child, and fixing a wall for free for a town that refused them hospitality.

However Moses cannot help but ask why they are doing them, so after three events Al-Khidr parts ways with him and tells him why he committed the acts; he made a hole in the boat as it was about to be stolen by a king if they departed at that moment, the child was killed as he would become a disbeliever, hurting his devout parents - so God will replace him with a 'purer' one, and the as for fixing the wall, he built it because it is covering a hidden treasure and two orphan boys will find this later.

18:66 Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?”

18:67 He said, “Indeed, with me you will never be able to have patience. 18:68 And how can you have patience for what you do not encompass in knowledge?” 18:69 [Moses] said, “You will find me, if Allah wills, patient, and I will not disobey you in [any] order.” 18:70 He said, “Then if you follow me, do not ask me about anything until I make to you about it mention.” 18:71 So they set out, until when they had embarked on the ship, al-Khidr tore it open. [Moses] said, “Have you torn it open to drown its people? You have certainly done a grave thing.” 18:72 [Al-Khidr] said, “Did I not say that with me you would never be able to have patience?” 18:73 [Moses] said, “Do not blame me for what I forgot and do not cover me in my matter with difficulty.” 18:74 So they set out, until when they met a boy, al-Khidr killed him. [Moses] said, “Have you killed a pure soul for other than [having killed] a soul? You have certainly done a deplorable thing.” 18:75 [Al-Khidr] said, “Did I not tell you that with me you would never be able to have patience?” 18:76 [Moses] said, “If I should ask you about anything after this, then do not keep me as a companion. You have obtained from me an excuse.” 18:77 So they set out, until when they came to the people of a town, they asked its people for food, but they refused to offer them hospitality. And they found therein a wall about to collapse, so al-Khidr restored it. [Moses] said, “If you wished, you could have taken for it a payment.” 18:78 [Al-Khidr] said, “This is parting between me and you. I will inform you of the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience. 18:79 As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working at sea. So I intended to cause defect in it as there was after them a king who seized every [good] ship by force. 18:80 And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief. 18:81 So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.

18:82 And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure for them, and their father had been righteous. So your Lord intended that they reach maturity and extract their treasure, as a mercy from your Lord. And I did it not of my own accord. That is the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience."

Quran 18:66-82

This verse is expanded upon in a sahih/authentic hadith: Sahih Bukhari 4:55:613

We can see that the servants knowledge of events to come is so great he is able to teach a prophet as important as Moses; and even become annoyed with him and leave him for questioning him. This kind of knowledge is usually only reserved for God, which although not a direct piece of evidence, fits someone coming from a special sea in the sense they are so supernatural and unlike any other character in the Quran. The verses talking about the two seas also usually appear after important creation events: Quran 55:22 is mentioned just after creating humans and jinn, Quran 35:12 following creation of humans from clay, and Quran 27:61 - a verse before mentions creating the heavens and the Earth; suggesting this is an important part of creation, which two specific but essentially random (as are never identified) seas are not as fitting.

Islamic Views - Hadith and Qur'an

In the two most authoritative hadith collections, we see in Sahih Bukhari that Muhammad is recorded as saying that when going into the seven heavens on a night journey (see: Buraq), the rivers in paradise came to Earth via the Nile and Euphrates. This clearly backs up the idea identified by Tommaso that fresh water comes into Earth via a freshwater cosmic ocean with rivers:

...Then I was shown Sidrat-ul-Muntaha (i.e. a tree in the seventh heaven) and I saw its Nabk fruits which resembled the clay jugs of Hajr (i.e. a town in Arabia), and its leaves were like the ears of elephants, and four rivers originated at its root, two of them were apparent and two were hidden. I asked Gabriel about those rivers and he said, 'The two hidden rivers are in Paradise, and the apparent ones are the Nile and the Euphrates.'...

Sahih Bukhari 4:54:429

And this idea is backed up in Sahih Muslim:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Saihan, Jaihan, Euphrates and Nile are all among the rivers of Paradise.

Sahih Muslim 40:6807

From this Quran verse we see that God's throne was on 'the waters' during creation:

It is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days—and His Throne was [then] upon the waters—that He may test you [to see] which of you is best in conduct. Yet if you say, ‘You will indeed be raised up after death,’ the faithless will surely say, ‘This is nothing but plain magic.’

Quran 11:7

Which were there before the universe was created (this hadith is rated Hasan/Good by Darussalam):

Narrated Waki' bin Hudus: from his uncle Abu Razin who said: "I said: 'O Messenger of Allah! Where was our Lord before He created His creation?' He said: 'He was (above) the clouds - no air was under him, no air was above him, and He created His Throne upon the water.'"

Jami` at-Tirmidhi 5:44:3109

As well as a hadith in Sunan Ibn Majah's collection, which although is rated 'Da'if/weak' (so unlikely to have come directly from Muhammad), show's early Muslim understanding of the verses as a cosmic sea in the sky, above the seventh heaven:

"I was in Batha with a group of people, among them whom was the Messenger of Allah. A cloud passed over him, and he looked at it and said: 'What do you call this?' They said: 'Sahab (a cloud).' He said: 'And Muzn (rain cloud).' They said: 'And Muzn.' He said: 'And 'Anan (clouds).' Abu Bakr said: "They said: 'And 'Anan.'" He said: 'How much (distance) do you think there is between you and the heavens?' They said: 'We do not know.' He said: 'Between you and it is seventy-one, or seventy-two, or seventy-three years, and there is a similar distance between it and the heaven above it (and so on)' until he counted seven heavens. 'Then above the seventh heaven there is a sea, between whose top and bottom is a distance like that between one heaven and another. Then above that there are eight (angels in the form of) mountain goats..."

Sunan Ibn Majah 1:1:193

Islamic Commentaries

Al-Tabari also provided an interpretation on this meaning of this verse to mean a 'sea in the sky and earth that meet every year' (with other views in his tafsir on verse:)

...On the authority of his father, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, in his saying: {The two seas meet.} He said: A sea in the sky and earth that meet every year. Others said: He meant the Persian Sea and the Roman Sea...

Al-Ṭabarī Tafsir verse 55:19

And speaks of a cosmic waters that surround the Earth and heavens elsewhere.

According to Muhammad b. Sahl b. 'Askar-Isma'il b. 'Abd al-Karim-Wahb, mentioning some of his majesty (as being described as follows): The heavens and the earth and the oceans are in the haykal, and the haykal is in the Footstool. God's feet are upon the Footstool. He carries the Footstool. It became like a sandal on His feet. When Wahb was asked: What is the haykal? He replied: Something on the heavens' extremities that surrounds the earth and the oceans like ropes that are used to fasten a tent. And when Wahb was asked how earths are (constituted), he replied: They are seven earths that are flat and islands. Between each two earths, there is an ocean. All that is surrounded by the (surrounding) ocean, and the haykal is behind the ocean.

Al-Tabari, Vol. 1, pp. 207-208

Angelika Neuwirth notes that Tabari's is the interpretation in accordance with the Qur'anic evidence, while other later interpretations (e.g. of different actual seas and metaphorical seas of fresh and salty water discussed below) were created to fit new Greek science.^[22]

‘The cryptic qur’anic statement about the two oceans has engendered diverse interpretations, mostly attempts to vindicate the geocentric Aristotelean-Ptolemaic world view. Only al-Tabari (d. 310/923) presents an interpretation in accordance with the qur'anic evidence, the image of a world swimming in an ocean and being covered by another ocean above the highest heaven. Al-Tabart (Ta/si, xxvii, 75, ad Q 55:19) states that the two oceans are located above the earth and around it respectively, the upper waters being fresh and sweet (‘adhbun furatun), the lower salty and bitter (milhun waqun).

Cosmology Entry. Space in cosmological context. Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an. pp. 445-446. Angelika Neuwirth. 2001.

Al-Qurtubi, another prominent Sunni Scholar also provides this 'sky and Earth sea meeting' view:

Ibn Abbas and Ibn Jubayr said: It refers to the ocean of the sky and the ocean of the earth. Ibn Abbas further explained: They meet each other every year, and between them is a barrier decreed by Allah. "And a barrier between them is forbidden to be crossed." It is forbidden for the salty water to mix with the sweet water or for the sweet water to become salty.

Tafsir al-Qurtabi 25:53

Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs and Tafsir Ibn Al Kathir commentary on verse 18:60, while not stating this comes from a cosmic ocean (but rather a nearby spring), also relate this story to a rock which contains the fountain of life reviving a dead fish, which pulls motifs from the near-East view of a magical cosmic waters with life-giving qualities. (Once again it is worth pointing out the obvious that there is no magic fountain or rock on Earth that can revive dead animals for this interpretation to fit).

It is also very difficult to imagine how one would know they had reached a junction of two seas, if this was referring to man-made sea boundaries as (such as the Persian and Roman seas) which many later commentaries guess at. However they would be more likely to know by reaching a magical barrier between the Earthly sea and cosmic ocean.

This idea of a cosmic ocean also has strong connections to the myth of the Islamic whale (see: The Islamic Whale) swimming in the ocean with Earth on its back, a view held by most major traditional Islamic scholars on their Qur'an commentaries such as Al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Al-Razi, Al Qurtubi etc. The prominent Shia scholar Al-Qummi (d. 919 C.E) also talks of the cosmic ocean the sun, moon and stars are in.

Hakam bin Mustanir narrates from Imam Sajjad (a) that His Eminence said that when Allah, blessed and High destined the needs of people, He created a sea between the heavens and the earth and fixed the orbits of the sun, moon, stars and planets in that sea. Then the Almighty Allah fixed all of them in a sky and appointed a kingdom of seventy thousand angels on that sky, who make it orbit.

Tafsir Qummi Vol. 3 (pp. 32) Ali Ibne Ibrahim Qummi English Translation: Sayyid Athar Husain S.H. Rizvi

Separately, in the story of Gog and Magog, also linked to Dhul-Qarnayn/Alexander the Great and this tale, some Shi'i traditions locate the barrier (of Gog and Magog) either behind the Mediterranean, between the two mountains found there, whose rear part is the encircling sea/ocean of the world (al-Baḥr al-Muḥīṭ).^[23]

As mentioned in the introductory paragraph, there are many classical scholars who have attributed the 'two seas' verses other than Moses reaching them (in Q18:60-65) as non-literal, in the sense that it is referring to the way that fresh water bodies of water are separate to the salty seas and oceans in general,^[24]usually by land.^[25] However once again it should be noted that it is not supported by the actual language of the Quran which designates the verse to be talking about two specific large bodies of water, rather than the many, many separate but unconnected bodies of fresh water across Earth. This view for example by Ibn Kathir seems supported by the fact that no-where on Earth has a sea with fresh water rather than a linguistic analysis (let alone there is no-where on Earth a freshwater sea touches a saltwater sea without merging).

(And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter;) means, He has created the two kinds of water, sweet and salty. The sweet water is like that in rivers, springs and wells, which is fresh, sweet, palatable water. This was the view of Ibn Jurayj and of Ibn Jarir, and this is the meaning without a doubt, for nowhere in creation is there a sea which is fresh and sweet. Allah has told us about reality so that His servants may realize His blessings to them and give thanks to Him. The sweet water is that which flows amidst people. Allah has portioned it out among His creatures according to their needs; rivers and springs in every land, according to what they need for themselves and their lands. (and that is salty and bitter;) meaning that it is salty, bitter and not easy to swallow. This is like the seas that are known in the east and the west, the Atlantic Ocean and the Straits that lead to it, the Red Sea, the Arabian Sea, the Persian Gulf, the China Sea, the Indian Ocean, the Mediterranean Sea, the Black Sea and so on,

Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Verse 25:51

Folklore and maps

Karen C. Pinto, a scholar who wrote a book on medieval Islamic maps, focusing on a distinct tradition of maps known collectively as the Book of Roads and Kingdoms (Kitab al-Masalik wa al-Mamalik, or KMMS)^[26], shows this view, known as the encircling ocean (al-Baḥr al-Muḥīṭ), was also part of Islamic folklore and art:

(((EDITORS: Are you able to add Picture 4 into this quote box above the text please)))

[add Picture 4 here]

...The crossing of this multivalent encircling sea is dangerous and forbidden to ordinary people because it separates the mundane earth from the heavenly cosmos. Only exceptional humans like Dhū ’l-Qarnayn (Alexander the Great), Khiḍr (the mythical green man), King Solomon and the perfect Sufi who has succeeded in extinguishing his individualistic identity can attempt such a crossing. It is composed of a series of radical opposites best described as ‘conceptual

malleability’. It is, on the one hand, the finite end of the world, and, on the other, infinite because no one can determine if or where it ends. The sense conveyed in geographical texts is either that it is infinite and connects with the cosmos as part of the seven encircling seas or that it skirts the mountains of Qāf that encircle and stabilize the earth. It is the quintessential transitional body between the mundane world of humans and the cosmos of the divine...

Karen C. Pinto, "In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision", ESPACIO, TIEMPO Y FORMA Serie VII · historia del arte (n. época), 2017, https://scholarworks.boisestate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=history_facpubs.

More images of Islamic Maps showing this can be seen for free in her 2017 article In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision on P56, P57 P59 and P61.

External links

Archive Wikiislam (former version) - Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran - Previous archived Wikiislam page on the former site covering this 'miracle'
Answering Islam - Facts About the Seas and Oceans
The Rain Model in Muhammad's Mind - an article on Islam Vs Atheism.com covering this topic and other water cycle-related verses in the Quran and hadith
Waters that Never mix - islamwhattheydonttellyou164 - YouTube video

References

↑ Tesei, Tommaso. Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. Journal of the American Oriental Society, vol. 135, no. 1, American Oriental Society, 2015, pp. 19–32, https://doi.org/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19. https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19
↑ Tasfir Ibn Kathir on verses 25:51-54
↑ Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on verse 25:53
↑ Corals and Coral Reefs - Smithsonian Institution website
↑ Meteorology. Aristotle. ~350BC
↑ Ancient mariners may have set sail 130,000 years ago. ARCHAEOLOGY. The Times. Norman Hammond. 2016. Boston University Archive
↑ About Estuary Database. Sea Around Us. Jacqueline Alder. Citing: Alder J (2003) Putting the Coast in the Sea Around Us Project. The Sea Around Us Newsletter No. 15:1-2.
↑ What is an Estuary? National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
↑ Joseph L. Reid, On the temperature, salinity, and density differences between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in the upper kilometre, Deep Sea Research (1953), Volume 7, Issue 4, 1961, Pages 265-275, ISSN 0146-6313, https://doi.org/10.1016/0146-6313(61)90044-2
↑ Sill. Geology. Science & Tech. Britannica Entry.
↑ Halocline. Oceanography. Science & Tech. Britannia Entry.
↑ Ocean Mixing. Water Encyclopaedia. Piers Chapman.
↑ Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14
↑ Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17
↑ Tafsir ibn Kathir Verse 18:60-65. Ibn Kathir c. 1300 – 1373.
↑ The Quran and Bible:Text and Commentary, New Haven: Yale University Press, 2018. Gabriel Said Reynolds.
↑ https://shamela.ws/book/12406/736
↑ https://www.justislam.co.uk/images/Ibn%20Ishaq%20-%20Sirat%20Rasul%20Allah.pdf
↑ Bravmann, M. M. (1977) Studies in Semitic Philology, Leiden: Brill p.439
↑ Smith, Paul. ANTHOLOGY OF CLASSICAL ARABIC POETRY (From Pre-Islamic Times to Ibn ‘Arabi). New Humanity Books. 2012. Kindle Location 4573.
↑ How transatlantic history shaped the world as we know it. Royalcaribbean.com. Uploaded by Chantae Reden. 2022. Written by Claire Heginbotham.
↑ Cosmology Entry. Space in cosmological context. Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an. pp. 445-446. Angelika Neuwirth. 2001. Read online for free here: Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an ( 6 Volumes). Page 15/325 / 482 of 3956 of PDF
↑ van Donzel, Emeri; Schmidt, Andrea. Gog and Magog in Early Eastern Christian and Islamic Sources: Sallam's Quest for Alexander's Wall. Leiden: Brill. pp. 81. ISBN 9789004174160, 2010. The full book can be read on the Internet Archive linked here.
↑ Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Verse 25:51.
↑ Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on verse 25:53
↑ Medieval Islamic Maps: An Exploration. Karen C. Pinto. Edition, illustrated. Publisher, University of Chicago Press, 2016. ISBN, 022612696X, 9780226126968

[1] Tesei, Tommaso. Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. Journal of the American Oriental Society, vol. 135, no. 1, American Oriental Society, 2015, pp. 19–32, https://doi.org/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19. https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19

[2] Tasfir Ibn Kathir on verses 25:51-54

[3] Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on verse 25:53

[4] Corals and Coral Reefs - Smithsonian Institution website

[5] Meteorology. Aristotle. ~350BC

[6] Ancient mariners may have set sail 130,000 years ago. ARCHAEOLOGY. The Times. Norman Hammond. 2016. Boston University Archive

[7] About Estuary Database. Sea Around Us. Jacqueline Alder. Citing: Alder J (2003) Putting the Coast in the Sea Around Us Project. The Sea Around Us Newsletter No. 15:1-2.

[8] What is an Estuary? National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration

[9] Joseph L. Reid, On the temperature, salinity, and density differences between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in the upper kilometre, Deep Sea Research (1953), Volume 7, Issue 4, 1961, Pages 265-275, ISSN 0146-6313, https://doi.org/10.1016/0146-6313(61)90044-2

[10] Sill. Geology. Science & Tech. Britannica Entry.

[11] Halocline. Oceanography. Science & Tech. Britannia Entry.

[12] Ocean Mixing. Water Encyclopaedia. Piers Chapman.

[13] Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14

[14] Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17

[15] Tafsir ibn Kathir Verse 18:60-65. Ibn Kathir c. 1300 – 1373.

[16] The Quran and Bible:Text and Commentary, New Haven: Yale University Press, 2018. Gabriel Said Reynolds.

[IbnalJawzi-17] ttps://shamela.ws/book/12406/736

[Guillaume-18] ttps://www.justislam.co.uk/images/Ibn%20Ishaq%20-%20Sirat%20Rasul%20Allah.pdf

[Bravmann-19] Bravmann, M. M. (1977) Studies in Semitic Philology, Leiden: Brill p.439

[20] Smith, Paul. ANTHOLOGY OF CLASSICAL ARABIC POETRY (From Pre-Islamic Times to Ibn ‘Arabi). New Humanity Books. 2012. Kindle Location 4573.

[21] How transatlantic history shaped the world as we know it. Royalcaribbean.com. Uploaded by Chantae Reden. 2022. Written by Claire Heginbotham.

[22] Cosmology Entry. Space in cosmological context. Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an. pp. 445-446. Angelika Neuwirth. 2001. Read online for free here: Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an ( 6 Volumes). Page 15/325 / 482 of 3956 of PDF

[23] van Donzel, Emeri; Schmidt, Andrea. Gog and Magog in Early Eastern Christian and Islamic Sources: Sallam's Quest for Alexander's Wall. Leiden: Brill. pp. 81. ISBN 9789004174160, 2010. The full book can be read on the Internet Archive linked here.

[24] Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Verse 25:51.

[25] Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on verse 25:53

[26] Medieval Islamic Maps: An Exploration. Karen C. Pinto. Edition, illustrated. Publisher, University of Chicago Press, 2016. ISBN, 022612696X, 9780226126968

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@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-== A barrier between two seas and the cosmic oceans ==
+== A barrier between two seas and the cosmic ocean ==
-'''Main page image to upload (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tSZVB0TTdpOtG0Y5sUbrCrsBiiHFZ-Io/view?usp=sharing). Rights brought from iStock to use on website.https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/estuary-difference-between-fresh-water-and-sea-water-from-above-gm1462114312-495765419?phrase=estuary+freshwater+saltwater&searchscope=image%2Cfilm'''
+'''Google Drive to get images from:''' https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1v3EG_ZAnHjDyn2nkLiBJv-W53tZ-vFY9?usp=sharing'''.'''
 === Introduction ===
 The Quran refers to two different bodies of water, emphasizing there is one sweet and one fresh, and that they meet but there is a barrier between them. Both early and medieval Muslims, and modern Academic scholarship, have identified this with an ancient belief of there being a cosmic ocean of water surrounding the world.<ref>Tesei, Tommaso. Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. Journal of the American Oriental Society, vol. 135, no. 1, American Oriental Society, 2015, pp. 19–32, [https://lockwoodonlinejournals.com/index.php/jaos/article/view/1669 https://doi.org/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19.] https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19</ref> Other classical scholars have attributed it to the way fresh water bodies of water are separate to the salty seas and oceans in general, rather than two specific bodies of water, not taking the verse literally.<ref>Tasfir Ibn Kathir on [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/25.51 verses 25:51-54]</ref><ref>Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Jalal/25.53 verse 25:53]</ref>
-Some modern Muslims have tried to reconcile the relevant verses with natural phenomena, including estuaries meeting the sea, and different seas having different salt levels. However critics do not believe the verses accurately describe this, and actually conflicts with the description as will be stated in the article. When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them.
+Some modern Muslims have tried to reconcile the relevant verses with natural phenomena, including estuaries meeting the sea, and different seas having different salt levels. However the verses do not accurately describe this, and actually conflict with the description as will be pointed out in the article. When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them.
 === The Qur'an ===
 There is a consistent theme of 'the two seas' ("al-baḥrayni, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), with the exact term being used 5 times in the Quran.
-We are told that there are two seas ("al-baḥrayni, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will ''never'' be passed.
+We are told that there are two seas ("al-baḥrayni, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salty and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will ''never'' be passed.
-{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}}Q55:22 quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching.<ref>[https://ocean.si.edu/ocean-life/invertebrates/corals-and-coral-reefs ''Corals and Coral Reefs''] - Smithsonian Institution website</ref>{{Quote|{{Quran|55|19-22}}|He released the two seas, meeting [side by side]; Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses. So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? From both of them emerge pearl and coral.}}And again in Q35:12 we are told the two seas with one being freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter). But from both come fresh meat (presumably fish) and ornaments to wear come from both (presumably coral and pearl as mentioned above in verse Q 55:22).
+{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}}Q55:22 quoted below states that coral emerges from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching.<ref>[https://ocean.si.edu/ocean-life/invertebrates/corals-and-coral-reefs ''Corals and Coral Reefs''] - Smithsonian Institution website</ref>{{Quote|{{Quran|55|19-22}}|He released the two seas, meeting [side by side]; Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses. So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? From both of them emerge pearl and coral.}}And again in Q35:12 we are told the two seas with one being freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter). But from both come fresh meat (presumably fish) and ornaments to wear come from both (presumably coral and pearl as mentioned above in verse Q 55:22).
 {{Quote|{{Quran|35|12}}|And the two seas are not alike: this, fresh, sweet, good to drink, this (other) bitter, salt. And from them both ye eat fresh meat and derive the ornament that ye wear. And thou seest the ship cleaving them with its prow that ye may seek of His bounty, and that haply ye may give thanks.}}
@@ Line 20: / Line 20: @@
 {{Quote|{{Quran|18|60-61}}|And [mention] when Moses said to his servant, "I will not cease [traveling] until I reach the junction of the two seas or continue for a long period." But when they reached the junction between them, they forgot their fish, and it took its course into the sea, slipping away.}}
-The full story of Moses ad Al-Khidr can be found lower in the page for context.
+The full story of Moses and Al-Khidr can be found lower on this page for context.
 === '''Apologists claims''' ===
@@ Line 29: / Line 29: @@
 The first claim is around fresh water from rivers meeting seas/oceans of salt water, with the transition stage known as [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary estuaries]:
-<big>(((EDITORS: Are you able to add the picture of figure 4 in the quote box below from the website please?')))</big>
+<big>(((EDITORS: Are you able to add Picture 2 in the quote box below (as shown in the Islamic website please)))</big>
-{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water.<b> (see Figure 4)
+{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water. (see Figure 4)
-Figure 4: Longitudinal section showing salinity (parts per thousand ‰) in an estuary. We can see here the partition
+[add Picture 2 here]
+<b>Figure 4: Longitudinal section showing salinity (parts per thousand ‰) in an estuary. We can see here the partition
 (zone of separation) between the fresh and the salt water. (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, p. 301, with a slight enhancement.)</b>
@@ Line 40: / Line 42: @@
 ===== Problems with miracle claim =====
-Critics point to issue's with inserting this is a scientific miracle (and even scientifically accurate):
+There are big issues with claiming this is a scientific miracle (and even scientifically accurate):
 # Firstly as with all claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clear<nowiki/>ly described a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into several typical categories used for these claims such as selective literalism, de-historicization and pseudo-corelation (''see [[Scientific Miracles in the Quran]]''), taking advantage of ambiguity in language to fit a modern reading..
 # The idea of the density of salt water being more than freshwater, separating the two was already known at least by the time of Aristotle ''(382 BC to 322 BC)''; ''“The drink''<nowiki/>''able, sweet water,'' ''l of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.”'''''<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref> '''
 # This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sa<nowiki/>iling nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as humans have sailed since ancient times,<ref>''[https://www.bu.edu/archaeology/files/2016/05/Ancient-mariners-may-have-set-sail-130000-years-ago-_-Register-_-The-Times-The-Sunday-Times.pdf Ancient mariners may have set sail 130,000 years ago].'' ARCHAEOLOGY. The Times. Norman Hammond. 2016. Boston University Archive</ref> and the colours are often different (as seen in the image on this page), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier placed by God between the two waters.
-# This description also seems to imply there is no mixing between them at all, and could just as easily be written by someone believing that someone incorrectly believin<nowiki/>g this.
+# This description implies there is no mixing between them at all, and could just as easily be written by someone incorrectly believing this.
-A deeper analysis can be found on the now defunct and archived former (''more polemical'') Wikiislam website' page on scientific miracles ''[https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran].''
+A deeper a<nowiki/>nalysis can be found on the now defunct and archived former (''more polemical'') Wikiislam website' page on scientific miracles ''[https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran].''
 ===== Problems with general accuracy =====
@@ Line 59: / Line 61: @@
 # There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. Salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them [https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html here] and on [https://www.coastalwiki.org/wiki/Salt_wedge_estuaries CostalWiki] for accessible science f<nowiki/>or the general reader), however despite what it may look like on the surface ''they all mix to varying degrees'' - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they are forbidden to pass.
 # It does not use the word specifically for river (نھر "Nahar" - a word also used elsewhere in the Qur'an to describe a river) and sea, which would have been an accurate<nowiki/> way to describe it.
-# If the mixing zones isn't part of either 'sea' being mentioned but a 'barrier', then there are arguably<nowiki/> 3 bodies of water in this, and the language could reflect the m<nowiki/>ixing zone by stating that one of them is made of both sweet and salty water (brackish water<ref>[https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est01_whatis.html#:~:text=The%20mixture%20of%20seawater%20and,%2C%20weather%2C%20or%20other%20factors. ''What is an Estuary?''] National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration</ref>). This also would separate it from th<nowiki/>e other specific seas being referred to as we will discuss in the next section.
+# If the mixing zones aren't part of either 'sea' being mentioned but a 'barrier', then there are 3 bodie<nowiki/>s of water in this, and the language could reflect the mixing zo<nowiki/>ne by stating that one of them is made of both sweet and salty water (brackish water<ref>[https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est01_whatis.html#:~:text=The%20mixture%20of%20seawater%20and,%2C%20weather%2C%20or%20other%20factors. ''What is an Estuary?''] National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration</ref>). This also would separate it from the other <nowiki/>specific seas being referred to as we will discuss in the next section.
 ==== '''Two actual seas''' ====
 Secondly, it states the verses not specifically mentioning sweet and salty waters are referring to different seas with different kinds of waters (again click the link to see the images):
-<big>(((EDITORS: Are you able to add the picture of figure 13 in the quote box below from the website please?')))</big>
+<big>(((EDITORS: Are you able to add Picture 3 in the quote box below (as shown in the Islamic website please)))</big>
-{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them.  This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density.  For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water.  When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometres into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics.  The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth <b>(see figure 13).
+{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them.  This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density.  For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water.  When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometres into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics.  The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth (see figure 13).
-Figure 13 (Click here to enlarge)
+[add Picture 3 here]
-Figure 13: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them.  Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.)</b>  (Click on the image to enlarge it.)}}
+<b>Figure 13: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them.  Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.)</b>  (Click on the image to enlarge it.)}}
 ===== Problems with miracle claim and general science =====
 * Firstly, it is a leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two 'seas' mentioned in Quran 55:19-20 from the others, as they all use the same phrase to refer to a specific two seas it is implied the audience is already familiar with.
 * Quran 35:12 states ornaments for us to wear are from both seas, salty and sweet linking the coral and pearl this to the sweet and salty seas as repeated in verse 55:22.
-* Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them implies this is for two specific seas, while this phenomena occurs in many places, even the North Atlantic, South Atlantic the Pacific Oceans have different salt levels.<ref>Joseph L. Reid, [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0146631361900442 On the temperature, salinity, and density differences between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in the upper kilometre,] Deep Sea Research (1953), Volume 7, Issue 4, 1961, Pages 265-275, ISSN 0146-6313, <nowiki>https://doi.org/10.1016/0146-6313(61)90044-2</nowiki></ref> And there are more examples of aquatic sills<ref>[https://www.britannica.com/science/sill Sill.] Geology. Science & Tech. Britannica Entry.</ref>, with some notable examples given [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_sill here] - which does not match a single specific case as the definite article used in the Quran suggests. For vertically mixed zones where salinity changes rapidly, a pycnocline zone, and more specifically, a halocline zone<ref>''[https://www.britannica.com/science/halocline Halocline.]'' Oceanography. Science & Tech. Britannia Entry.</ref>, is always a mixture of fresh water and salt water - in fact it is a product of their mixing.
+* Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them means this is for two specific seas, while this phenomena occurs in many places, even the North Atlantic, South Atlantic the Pacific Oceans have different salt levels.<ref>Joseph L. Reid, [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0146631361900442 On the temperature, salinity, and density differences between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in the upper kilometre,] Deep Sea Research (1953), Volume 7, Issue 4, 1961, Pages 265-275, ISSN 0146-6313, <nowiki>https://doi.org/10.1016/0146-6313(61)90044-2</nowiki></ref> And there are more examples of aquatic sills<ref>[https://www.britannica.com/science/sill Sill.] Geology. Science & Tech. Britannica Entry.</ref>, with some notable examples given [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_sill here] - which does not match a single specific case as the definite article used in the Quran suggests. For vertically mixed zones where salinity changes rapidly, a pycnocline zone, and more specifically, a halocline zone<ref>''[https://www.britannica.com/science/halocline Halocline.]'' Oceanography. Science & Tech. Britannia Entry.</ref>, is always a mixture of fresh water and salt water - in fact it is a product of their mixing.
 * For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing, this is not true, as Piers Chapman of Texas A&M University writes on Waterencyclopedia<ref>[http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Ocean-Mixing.html ''Ocean Mixing.''] Water Encyclopaedia. ''Piers Chapman.'' </ref>: ''<nowiki/>'Mixing in the ocean occurs on several scales.. The best-known example of this process, known as salt fingering, occurs where very salty water from the Mediterranean outflow mixes into the North Atlantic... Most mixing, however, takes place on larger scales in response to forcing by the wind'.''
@@ Line 81: / Line 83: @@
 === Antiquity interpretation ===
-There is another interpretation for this verse which critics argue is the only one to accurately fit this verse on a literal plain reading, which is discussed below. This fits a prevalent antiquity (and pre-antiquity) view that was present across the region, and also held in biblical cosmology and later Christian/Jewish exegesis at the time of Mohammad, that this refers to a somewhat magical cosmic ocean surrounding the Earth.
+There is another interpretation that is the only one to accurately fit the verses on a literal plain reading, which is discussed below. This fits a prevalent antiquity (and pre-antiquity) view that was present across the region, and also held in biblical cosmology and later Christian/Jewish exegesis at the time of Mohammad, that this refers to a somewhat magical cosmic ocean surrounding the Earth.
 This likely originates from ancient Mesopotamian myths, such as the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14</ref> Wensinck explains,<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17</ref> "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites".
-Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative). Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, critics argue that the verse in question is scientifically wrong.
+Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due to a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative). Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, the verse in question is scientifically wrong.
-The antiquity view is well summarised in Tommaso Tesei's 2015 article '''[https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context]''<nowiki/>', examining the Qur'ans verse on Moses meeting a servant at the meeting of the two seas, which he claims is influenced by a story of Alexander the Great (''see [[Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance]]''), which also features in this Surah. The main discussion is on verses:
+The view in its historical context is well summarised in Tommaso Tesei's 2015 article '''[https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context]''<nowiki/>', examining the Qur'ans verse on Moses meeting a servant at the meeting of the two seas, which he claims is influenced by a story of Alexander the Great (''see [[Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance]]''), which also features in this Surah. The main discussion is on verses:
 {{Quote|{{Quran|18|60-65}}|18:60 (Consider) when Moses said to his young companion, "I shall continue travelling until I reach the junction of the two seas or have travelled for many ages". 18:61 But when they reached the Junction, they forgot (about) their Fish, which took its course through the sea (straight) as in a tunnel.
 :62 When they had passed on (some distance), Moses said to his attendant: "Bring us our early meal; truly we have suffered much fatigue at this (stage of) our journey." 18:63 He replied: "Sawest thou (what happened) when we betook ourselves to the rock? I did indeed forget (about) the Fish: none but Satan made me forget to tell (you) about it: it took its course through the sea in a marvellous way!" 18:64 Moses said: "That was what we were seeking after:" So they went back on their footsteps, following (the path they had come). 18:65 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge.}}
-The full article from Tommaso, which is recommended to read to understand the context, can be read in the link on JSTOR for free by making an account, which provides a full overview.
+The full article from Tommaso, which is recommended to read to understand the context, can be read in the link on [https://www.jstor.org/ JSTOR] for free by making an account, which provides a full overview.
 The Quran states that Moses is able to reach “the junction of the two seas” (majmaʿ al-baḥrayni), where he meets a Servant of God. It states that he is able to reach it after hearing from his young attendant about the fish that they were carrying with them (for food) escaping. This is twice referred to, in Q18:61 and v63. In both cases the dynamic is described by exactly the same phrase, with v63 ending in ʿajaban, which is commonly translated as “wondrously” or “in a marvellous way,” and 'saraban', which has caused problems and disagreements among Muslim commentators:
@@ Line 113: / Line 115: @@
 In Quranic cosmology, this expression is possibly intended to designate a place that has a specific role in the passage of the heavenly waters to earth. In light of the above, one can imagine majmaʿ al-baḥrayn as the place where the heavenly and terrestrial oceans meet, and from where the sweet waters reach the earth, by way of an underground course alluded to by the expression saraban.. (pp. 29)}}
 === The Biblical and Judeo-Christian background literature ===
-The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedents of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature]]. The bible itself also contains a sea above the Earth:
+The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedents of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature]]. The Bible itself also contains a sea above the Earth:
 {{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://biblia.com/books/kjv1900/Ge1.6 | title=Genesis 1:10}}|(Genesis 1:6-10)  6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
@@ Line 122: / Line 124: @@
 ==== '''Pre-Islamic poetry''' ====
-The fact that the Qur'an addresses it's audience with the claim of the two (specific not general) seas, without giving more explanation or context about what they are or where, also suggests the initial audience were acquainted with it's meaning. We can see these views were also prevalent in Arabia at the time of Mohammad's preaching as this poem from a contemporary of Muhammad mentions the Earth being settled on the waters:
+The fact that the Qur'an addresses its audience with the claim of the two (specific not general) seas, without giving more explanation or context about what they are or where, also suggests the initial audience were acquainted with its meaning. We can see these views were also prevalent in Arabia at the time of Mohammad's preaching as this poem from a contemporary of Muhammad mentions the Earth being settled on the waters:
 {{Quote|Poem attributed to Zayd b. 'Amr, as found for example in Ibn Al Jawzi's Al Muntazam,<ref name="IbnalJawzi">https://shamela.ws/book/12406/736</ref> and Ibn Ishaq's biography of Muhammad (as translated from Ibn Ishaq by Guillaume<ref name="Guillaume">https://www.justislam.co.uk/images/Ibn%20Ishaq%20-%20Sirat%20Rasul%20Allah.pdf</ref> and transliterated by Bravmann<ref name="Bravmann">Bravmann, M. M. (1977) Studies in Semitic Philology, Leiden: Brill p.439</ref>)|daḥāhā falammā raʾādā istawat ʿalā l-māʾi arsā ʿalayhā l-jibālā /
@@ Line 160: / Line 162: @@
 This verse is expanded upon in a sahih/authentic hadith: {{Bukhari|4|55|613}}
-We can see that the servants knowledge of events to come is so great he is able to teach a prophet as important as Moses, and even become annoyed with him and leave him for questioning him. This kind of knowledge is usually only reserved for God, which although not a direct piece of evidence, fits someone coming from a special sea in the sense they are so supernatural and unlike any other character in the Quran. The verses talking about the two seas also usually appear after important creation events: {{Quran|55|22}} is mentioned just after creating humans and jinn, {{Quran|35|12}} following creation of humans from clay, and {{Quran|27|61}} - a verse before mentions creating the heavens and the Earth; suggesting this is an important part of creation, which two specific but essentially random (as are never identified) seas are not as fitting.
+We can see that the servants knowledge of events to come is so great he is able to teach a prophet as important as Moses; and even become annoyed with him and leave him for questioning him. This kind of knowledge is usually only reserved for God, which although not a direct piece of evidence, fits someone coming from a special sea in the sense they are so supernatural and unlike any other character in the Quran. The verses talking about the two seas also usually appear after important creation events: {{Quran|55|22}} is mentioned just after creating humans and jinn, {{Quran|35|12}} following creation of humans from clay, and {{Quran|27|61}} - a verse before mentions creating the heavens and the Earth; suggesting this is an important part of creation, which two specific but essentially random (as are never identified) seas are not as fitting.
 === Islamic Views - Hadith and Qur'an ===
-In the two most authoritative hadith collections, we see in Sahih Bukhari that Muhammad is recorded as saying that when going into the seven heavens on a night journey (see [[Buraq]]), the rivers in paradise came to Earth via the Nile and Euphrates. This clearly backs up the idea identified by Tommaso that fresh water comes into Earth via a freshwater cosmic ocean:
+In the two most authoritative hadith collections, we see in Sahih Bukhari that Muhammad is recorded as saying that when going into the seven heavens on a night journey (''see: [[Buraq]]''), the rivers in paradise came to Earth via the Nile and Euphrates. This clearly backs up the idea identified by Tommaso that fresh water comes into Earth via a freshwater cosmic ocean with rivers:
 {{Quote|{{Bukhari|4|54|429}}|...Then I was shown Sidrat-ul-Muntaha (i.e. a tree in the seventh heaven) and I saw its Nabk fruits which resembled the clay jugs of Hajr (i.e. a town in Arabia), and its leaves were like the ears of elephants, and four rivers originated at its root, two of them were apparent and two were hidden. I asked Gabriel about those rivers and he said, 'The two hidden rivers are in Paradise, and the apparent ones are the Nile and the Euphrates.'...}}
 And this idea is backed up in Sahih Muslim:
 {{Quote|{{Muslim|40|6807}}|Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Saihan, Jaihan, Euphrates and Nile are all among the rivers of Paradise.}}
-From this Quran verse we see the God's throne was on 'the waters' during creation:
+From this Quran verse we see that God's throne was on 'the waters' during creation:
 {{Quote|{{Quran|11|7}}|It is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days—and His Throne was [then] upon the waters—that He may test you [to see] which of you is best in conduct. Yet if you say, ‘You will indeed be raised up after death,’ the faithless will surely say, ‘This is nothing but plain magic.’}}Which were there before the universe was created (this hadith is rated Hasan/Good by Darussalam):
@@ Line 178: / Line 180: @@
 {{Quote|[https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo&#61;0&tTafsirNo&#61;1&tSoraNo&#61;55&tAyahNo&#61;19&tDisplay&#61;yes&Page&#61;2&Size&#61;1&LanguageId&#61;1 Al-Ṭabarī Tafsir verse 55:19]|...On the authority of his father, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, in his saying: {The two seas meet.} He said: <b>A sea in the sky and earth that meet every year.</b> Others said: He meant the Persian Sea and the Roman Sea...}}And speaks of a cosmic waters that surround the Earth and heavens elsewhere.
 {{Quote|Al-Tabari, Vol. 1, pp. 207-208|According to Muhammad b. Sahl b. 'Askar-Isma'il b. 'Abd al-Karim-Wahb, mentioning some of his majesty (as being described as follows): The heavens and the earth and the oceans are in the haykal, and the haykal is in the Footstool. God's feet are upon the Footstool. He carries the Footstool. It became like a sandal on His feet. When Wahb was asked: What is the haykal? He replied: Something on the heavens' extremities that surrounds the earth and the oceans like ropes that are used to fasten a tent. And when Wahb was asked how earths are (constituted), he replied: <b>They are seven earths that are flat and islands. Between each two earths, there is an ocean. All that is surrounded by the (surrounding) ocean, and the haykal is behind the ocean.</b>}}
-Angelika Neuwirth notes that's Tabari's is the interpretation in accordance with the Qur'anic evidence, while other later interpretations (e.g. of different actual seas and metaphorical seas of fresh and salty water discussed below) were created to fit new Greek science.<ref>Cosmology Entry. Space in cosmological context. Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an. pp. 445-446. Angelika Neuwirth. 2001.
+Angelika Neuwirth notes that Tabari's is the interpretation in accordance with the Qur'anic evidence, while other later interpretations (e.g. of different actual seas and metaphorical seas of fresh and salty water discussed below) were created to fit new Greek science.<ref>Cosmology Entry. Space in cosmological context. Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an. pp. 445-446. Angelika Neuwirth. 2001.
 Read online for free here: ''[https://archive.org/details/encyclopaedia-of-the-quran-6-volumes-jane-dammen-mc-auliffe/page/n481/mode/2up?q=Cosmology Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an ( 6 Volumes)]. Page 15/325 / 482 of 3956 of PDF''</ref>
@@ Line 184: / Line 186: @@
 {{Quote|Cosmology Entry. Space in cosmological context. [https://archive.org/details/EncyclopaediaOfTheQuranVol.1aD/page/n481/mode/2up Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an.] pp. 445-446. Angelika Neuwirth. 2001.|‘The cryptic qur’anic statement about the two oceans has engendered diverse interpretations, mostly attempts to vindicate the geocentric Aristotelean-Ptolemaic world view. Only al-Tabari (d. 310/923) presents an interpretation in accordance with the qur'anic evidence, the image of a world swimming in an ocean and being covered by another ocean above the highest heaven. Al-Tabart (Ta/si, xxvii, 75, ad Q 55:19) states that the two oceans are located above the earth and around it respectively, the upper waters being fresh and sweet (‘adhbun furatun), the lower salty and bitter (milhun waqun).}}
-[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurtubi Al-Qurtubi], another prominent Sunni Scholar also provides this 'sky and Earth sea meeting' view:{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=5&tSoraNo=25&tAyahNo=53&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1 | title=Tafsir al-Qurtabi 25:53}}|Ibn Abbas and Ibn Jubayr said: It refers to the ocean of the sky and the ocean of the earth. Ibn Abbas further explained: They meet each other every year, and between them is a barrier decreed by Allah. "And a barrier between them is forbidden to be crossed." It is forbidden for the salty water to mix with the sweet water or for the sweet water to become salty.}}
+[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurtubi Al-Qurtubi], another prominent Sunni Scholar also provides this 'sky and Earth sea meeting' view:{{Quote|[https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo&#61;1&tTafsirNo&#61;5&tSoraNo&#61;25&tAyahNo&#61;53&tDisplay&#61;yes&UserProfile&#61;0&LanguageId&#61;1 Tafsir al-Qurtabi 25:53]|Ibn Abbas and Ibn Jubayr said: It refers to the ocean of the sky and the ocean of the earth. Ibn Abbas further explained: They meet each other every year, and between them is a barrier decreed by Allah. "And a barrier between them is forbidden to be crossed." It is forbidden for the salty water to mix with the sweet water or for the sweet water to become salty.}}
-[https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Abbas/18.60 Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs] and [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/18.60 Tafsir Ibn Al Kathir] commentary on verse 18:60, while not stating this comes from a cosmic ocean (but rather a nearby spring), also relate this story to a rock which contains the fountain of life reviving a dead fish, which pulls motifs from the near-East view of a magical cosmic waters with life giving qualities. ''(Once again it is worth pointing out the obvious that there is no magic fountain or rock on Earth that can revive dead animals for this interpretation to fit).''
+[https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Abbas/18.60 Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs] and [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/18.60 Tafsir Ibn Al Kathir] commentary on verse 18:60, while not stating this comes from a cosmic ocean (but rather a nearby spring), also relate this story to a rock which contains the fountain of life reviving a dead fish, which pulls motifs from the near-East view of a magical cosmic waters with life-giving qualities. ''(Once again it is worth pointing out the obvious that there is no magic fountain or rock on Earth that can revive dead animals for this interpretation to fit).''
 It is also very difficult to imagine how one would know they had reached a junction of two seas, if this was referring to man-made sea boundaries as (such as the Persian and Roman seas) which many later commentaries guess at. However they would be more likely to know by reaching a magical barrier between the Earthly sea and cosmic ocean.
-This idea of a cosmic ocean also has strong connections to the myth of the Islamic whale (''see: [[The Islamic Whale]]'') swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back, a view held by most major traditional Islamic scholars on their Qur'an commentaries such as Al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Al-Razi, Al Qurtubi etc. The prominent Shia scholar Al-Qummi (d. 919 C.E) also talks of the cosmic ocean the sun, moon and stars are in.
+This idea of a cosmic ocean also has strong connections to the myth of the Islamic whale (''see: [[The Islamic Whale]]'') swimming in the ocean with Earth on its back, a view held by most major traditional Islamic scholars on their Qur'an commentaries such as Al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Al-Razi, Al Qurtubi etc. The prominent Shia scholar Al-Qummi (d. 919 C.E) also talks of the cosmic ocean the sun, moon and stars are in.
 {{Quote|[https://hubeali.com/books/English-Books/TafseerQummi/TafsirQummi-Vol3.pdf Tafsir Qummi Vol. 3] (pp. 32) Ali Ibne Ibrahim Qummi English Translation: Sayyid Athar Husain S.H. Rizvi|Hakam bin Mustanir narrates from Imam Sajjad (a) that His Eminence said that when Allah, blessed and High destined the needs of people, He created a sea between the heavens and the earth and fixed the orbits of the sun, moon, stars and planets in that sea. Then the Almighty Allah fixed all of them in a sky and appointed a kingdom of seventy thousand angels on that sky, who make it orbit.}}
@@ Line 198: / Line 200: @@
 As mentioned in the introductory paragraph, there are many classical scholars who have attributed the 'two seas' verses other than Moses reaching them (in Q18:60-65) as non-literal, in the sense that it is referring to the way that fresh water bodies of water are separate to the salty seas and oceans in general,<ref>Tafsir Ibn Kathir on [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/25.51 Verse 25:51.] </ref>usually by land.<ref>Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on verse [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Jalal/25.53 25:53]</ref> However once again it should be noted that it is not supported by the actual language of the Quran which designates the verse to be talking about two specific large bodies of water, rather than the many, many separate but unconnected bodies of fresh water across Earth. This view for example by Ibn Kathir seems supported by the fact that no-where on Earth has a sea with fresh water rather than a linguistic analysis (let alone there is no-where on Earth a freshwater sea touches a saltwater sea without merging).
-{{Quote|[https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/25.51 Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Verse 25:51]|(And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter;) means, He has created the two kinds of water, sweet and salty. The sweet water is like that in rivers, springs and wells, which is fresh, sweet, palatable water. This was the view of Ibn Jurayj and of Ibn Jarir, and this is the meaning without a doubt, <b>for nowhere in creation is there a sea which is fresh and sweet.</b>}}
+{{Quote|[https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/25.51 Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Verse 25:51]|(And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter;) means, He has created the two kinds of water, sweet and salty. The sweet water is like that in rivers, springs and wells, which is fresh, sweet, palatable water. This was the view of Ibn Jurayj and of Ibn Jarir, and this is the meaning without a doubt, <b>for nowhere in creation is there a sea which is fresh and sweet.</b> Allah has told us about reality so that His servants may realize His blessings to them and give thanks to Him. The sweet water is that which flows amidst people. Allah has portioned it out among His creatures according to their needs; rivers and springs in every land, according to what they need for themselves and their lands.
+(and that is salty and bitter;) meaning that it is salty, bitter and not easy to swallow. This is like the seas that are known in the east and the west, the Atlantic Ocean and the Straits that lead to it, the Red Sea, the Arabian Sea, the Persian Gulf, the China Sea, the Indian Ocean, the Mediterranean Sea, the Black Sea and so on,}}
 ==== Folklore and maps ====
 Karen C. Pinto, a scholar who wrote a book on medieval Islamic maps, focusing on a distinct tradition of maps known collectively as the Book of Roads and Kingdoms (''Kitab al-Masalik wa al-Mamalik'', or KMMS)<ref>[https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/M/bo17703325.html ''Medieval Islamic Maps: An Exploration''.] Karen C. Pinto. Edition, illustrated. Publisher, University of Chicago Press, 2016. ISBN, 022612696X, 9780226126968</ref>, shows this view, known as the encircling ocean ([https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/encyclopaedia-of-islam-2/al-bahr-al-muhit-SIM_1064 al-Baḥr al-Muḥīṭ]), was also part of Islamic folklore and art:
-{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://scholarworks.boisestate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=history_facpubs | title=In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision | author=Karen C.  Pinto | publisher=ESPACIO, TIEMPO Y FORMA Serie VII · historia del arte (n. época) | date=2017}}|...The crossing of this multivalent encircling sea is dangerous and forbidden to ordinary people because it separates the mundane earth from the heavenly cosmos. Only exceptional humans like Dhū ’l-Qarnayn (Alexander the Great), Khiḍr (the mythical green man), King Solomon and the perfect Sufi who has succeeded in extinguishing his individualistic identity can attempt such a crossing.
+<big>(((EDITORS: Are you able to add Picture 4 into this quote box above the text please)))</big>
+{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://scholarworks.boisestate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=history_facpubs | title=In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision | author=Karen C.  Pinto | publisher=ESPACIO, TIEMPO Y FORMA Serie VII · historia del arte (n. época) | date=2017}}|[add Picture 4 here]
+...The crossing of this multivalent encircling sea is dangerous and forbidden to ordinary people because it separates the mundane earth from the heavenly cosmos. Only exceptional humans like Dhū ’l-Qarnayn (Alexander the Great), Khiḍr (the mythical green man), King Solomon and the perfect Sufi who has succeeded in extinguishing his individualistic identity can attempt such a crossing.
 It is composed of a series of radical opposites best described as ‘conceptual
 malleability’. It is, on the one hand, the finite end of the world, and, on the other, infinite because no one can determine if or where it ends. The sense conveyed in geographical texts is either that it is infinite and connects with the cosmos as part of the seven encircling seas or that it skirts the mountains of Qāf that encircle and stabilize the earth. It is the quintessential transitional body between the mundane world of humans and the cosmos of the divine...}}
-Images of this can be seen for free in her 2017 article [https://scholarworks.boisestate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=history_facpubs ''In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision''] on P56 and P57.
+More images of Islamic Maps showing this can be seen for free in her 2017 article [https://scholarworks.boisestate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=history_facpubs ''In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision''] on P56, P57 P59 and P61.
-<big>(((EDITORS: Are you able to add this picture of the map in then please do)))</big>
 == External links ==
 * [https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran Archive Wikiislam (former version) - Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran] - ''Previous archived Wikiislam page on the former site covering this 'miracle'''
 * [https://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/It-is-truth/chap13.htm Answering Islam - Facts About the Seas and Oceans]
-* [https://atheism-vs-islam.com/index.php/scientific-mistakes-in-the-revelation/139-the-rain-model-in-muhammad-s-mind-covering-the-entire-islamic-cosmology,-including-the-flat-earth-concept The Rain Model in Muhammad's Mind] - ''an article on Islam Vs Atheism.com covering this topic and other water cycle related verses in the Quran and hadith''
+* [https://atheism-vs-islam.com/index.php/scientific-mistakes-in-the-revelation/139-the-rain-model-in-muhammad-s-mind-covering-the-entire-islamic-cosmology,-including-the-flat-earth-concept The Rain Model in Muhammad's Mind] - ''an article on Islam Vs Atheism.com covering this topic and other water cycle-related verses in the Quran and hadith''
-* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9Voh0xLLUw&t=105s Waters that Never mix] - ''YouTube video''
+* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9Voh0xLLUw&t=105s Waters that Never mix] - ''islamwhattheydonttellyou164 - YouTube video''
 == References ==
 <references />

User:CPO675/Sandbox 1: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 05:19, 1 December 2024

Contents

A barrier between two seas and the cosmic ocean

Introduction

The Qur'an

Apologists claims

Estuaries and salt water

Issues with this interpretation

Problems with miracle claim

Problems with general accuracy

Two actual seas

Problems with miracle claim and general science

Historical context

Antiquity interpretation

The Biblical and Judeo-Christian background literature

Pre-Islamic poetry

Post-Islamic Poetry

Islamic Literature - The two seas in the story Moses and Al-Khidr

Islamic Views - Hadith and Qur'an

Islamic Commentaries

Folklore and maps

External links

References

Navigation menu

User:CPO675/Sandbox 1: Difference between revisions

Latest revision as of 05:19, 1 December 2024

A barrier between two seas and the cosmic ocean

Introduction

The Qur'an

Apologists claims

Estuaries and salt water

Issues with this interpretation

Problems with miracle claim

Problems with general accuracy

Two actual seas

Problems with miracle claim and general science

Historical context

Antiquity interpretation

The Biblical and Judeo-Christian background literature

Pre-Islamic poetry

Post-Islamic Poetry

Islamic Literature - The two seas in the story Moses and Al-Khidr

Islamic Views - Hadith and Qur'an

Islamic Commentaries

Folklore and maps

External links

References

Navigation menu

Search