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== A barrier between two seas and the cosmic oceans ==
{{QualityScore|Lead=3|Structure=3|Content=2|Language=2|References=2}}'''Hadith''' (حديث; pl. ''ahadith أحاديث'') literally translates to mean "talk", but is most commonly used as an Islamic term that refers to the orally-transmitted accounts of Muhammad's life, wherein Muhammad does, says, or tacitly (that is, silently) approves of something. The hadiths, passed down orally before being written down, for the most part, some 150-200 years after [[Muhammad's Death|Muhammad's death]], are second in their religious authority only to the [[Qur'an]] and, since the collections of hadith are far, far vaster (and more detailed) than the (at times vague) Qur'an, they form the basis for the great majority of [[Islamic law]] and the [[Sunnah]]. Indeed, even the details regarding the [[Five Pillars of Islam]] are found only in the hadith (the Qur'an, focused more on matters of belief, simply mentions these rituals every once in a while without providing anything in the way of clear details).


More broadly, the word "Hadith" refers to the statements and actions of Muhammad as well as his [[companions]]. In the Shi'ite tradition, the term "Hadith" extends to include the statements and actions of the ''ahl al-bayt'' (Muhammad's descendants through Fatima, as well as the twelve Imams). [[Criticism of the Hadith]]


Order
==Religious and sectarian perspectives==


# <s>Intro</s>
===Oral traditions and early sectarianism===
# <s>What they Quran says - short paragraph on the science</s>
Though the authenticity of ''any'' of the Hadith has come under increasing scrutiny in modern times (in light of scholarship on the reliability of oral traditions, virtually unending political conflicts after Muhammad's death, frequent internal contradiction, and, often, clear cases of fabrication), the early scholars of Islam responsible for the transcription of the hadith did themselves employ a seemingly sophisticated method of verification that relied on the plausibility of: the "chains" of transmission (or ''asaneed;'' sing. ''isnad'') allegedly connecting the hadith back to the prophet, the reliability of the narrators' morals and memory, and, indeed, the ''matn'', or text, of the hadith itself (that is, the plausibility of the prophet actually having said/done what the report attests to).
# <s>Apologist claim? here or above the science?</s>
# Why is it incorrect - the science and refutation of apologist claim.
# <s>refutation of apologist claim</s>
# <s>Why is it incorrect</s>
# The historical context
# Other groups that have the same mythology
# Who knew that salt and fresh water didn't mix - Archimides


'''<br />Main page image to upload (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tSZVB0TTdpOtG0Y5sUbrCrsBiiHFZ-Io/view?usp=sharing). Rights brought from iStock to use on website.https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/estuary-difference-between-fresh-water-and-sea-water-from-above-gm1462114312-495765419?phrase=estuary+freshwater+saltwater&searchscope=image%2Cfilm'''  
Despite this apparent rigor, the hadith would ultimately be compiled along sectarian, political, and polemical lines, generally with narrations supporting the compiling group's point of view (matn-based analysis playing no small part in this outcome). Today, [[Sunnis]] and [[Shi'ism|Shi'ites]] have separate collections of hadiths. That the meaning of "hadith" extended to include the sayings and doings of Muhammad's companions, many of whom would be deeply embroiled in the political turmoil that would follow Muhammad's death (prominently, [[Ali]] and [[Aisha]]), only facilitated the splitting of the tradition.


=== Introduction ===
===Sunni perspective===
The Quran refers to two different bodies of water, emphasising there is one sweet and one fresh, and that they meet but there is a batter between them. Both early and medieval Muslims, and modern Academic scholarship, have identified this with an ancient belief of there being a cosmic ocean of water surrounding the world.<ref>Tesei, Tommaso. Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. Journal of the American Oriental Society, vol. 135, no. 1, American Oriental Society, 2015, pp. 19–32, [https://lockwoodonlinejournals.com/index.php/jaos/article/view/1669 https://doi.org/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19.] https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19</ref> Other classical scholars have attributed it to the way fresh water bodies of water are separate to the salty seas and oceans in general, rather than two specific bodies of water not taking the verse literally.<ref>Tasfir Ibn Kathir on [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/25.51 verses 25:51-54]</ref><ref>Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Jalal/25.53 verse 25:53]</ref>


Some modern Muslims have tried to reconcile the relevant verses with natural phenomena, including estuaries meeting the sea, and different seas having different salt levels. However critics do not believe the verses accurately describe this, and actually conflicts with the description in several key aspects as will be stated in the article. When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them. 
The word '[[Sunni]]' comes from the word 'Sunnah', and most of the world's Muslims (as many as 80-90%)<ref name="rl">[http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/comparison_charts/islamic_sects.htm Comparison of Sunni and Shia Islam] - ReligionFacts</ref><ref>[http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/295507/Islam Islām] - Encyclopædia Britannica (2010)</ref><ref>[http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/574006/Sunnite Sunnite] - Encyclopædia Britannica (2010)</ref><ref name="pew">[http://pewforum.org/Muslim/Mapping-the-Global-Muslim-Population%286%29.aspx Mapping the Global Muslim Population: A Report on the Size and Distribution of the World’s Muslim Population] - Pew Research Center, October 7, 2009</ref><ref name="pew2">Tracy Miller - [http://pewforum.org/newassets/images/reports/Muslimpopulation/Muslimpopulation.pdf Mapping the Global Muslim Population: A Report on the Size and Distribution of the World's Muslim Population] - Pew Research Center, October 2009</ref> follow this Sunni form of Islam. There are certain Hadith collections considered by most Sunnis to be trustworthy and these are commonly known as the ''Authentic Six''. Only two of them, however, are considered entirely authentic ([[sahih]]), and these are [[Sahih Bukhari|Bukhari]] and Muslim. These collections are second only to the Qur'an in authority. The others are from Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi, Nasa'i, and Ibn Majah. In strength, Malik's Muwatta' is placed just below the two Sahihs, but is not generally included among the authentic six.<ref>[http://www.abc.se/~m9783/n/vih_e.html Various Issues About Hadiths] - by Sh. G. F. Haddad</ref>
=== The Qur'an ===
There is a consistent theme of 'the two seas' ("al-baḥrayn, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), with the exact same term being used 5 times in the Quran.


We are told that there are two seas ("al-baḥrayn, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will ''never'' be passed.
===Shi'ite perspective===
{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}}Q55:22 quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching<ref>[https://ocean.si.edu/ocean-life/invertebrates/corals-and-coral-reefs ''Corals and Coral Reefs''] - Smithsonian Institution website</ref>:{{Quote|{{Quran|55|19-22}}|He released the two seas, meeting [side by side]; Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses. So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? From both of them emerge pearl and coral.}}And again in Q35:12 we are told the two seas with one being freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter). But from both come fresh meat (presumably fish) and ornaments to wear come from both (presumably coral and pearl as mentioned above in verse Q 55:22):


{{Quote|{{Quran|35|12}}|And the two seas are not alike: this, fresh, sweet, good to drink, this (other) bitter, salt. And from them both ye eat fresh meat and derive the ornament that ye wear. And thou seest the ship cleaving them with its prow that ye may seek of His bounty, and that haply ye may give thanks.}}
In [[Shiite|Shi'ite]] Islam (approx 10-20% of the world's Muslim population)<ref name="rl" /><ref>[http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/540503/Shiite Shīʿite] - Encyclopædia Britannica Online (2010)</ref><ref name="pew" /><ref name="pew2" /> they have their own collections and are more particular in regards to the Hadith narrations they will accept. If a narrator was not a member of the Ahl al-Bayt (Muhammad's household) or one of their supporters, then the narration is typically rejected. For example, they reject narrations from Abu Huraira. Al-Kafi is considered the most reliable collection of Shi'ite hadith.<ref>[http://www.ahya.org/amm/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=72 Al Kafi - The Bukhari of Shi'ism] - AHYA</ref>


Again, there is a barrier between the two seas. {{Quote|{{Quran|27|61}}|Is He [not best] who made the earth a stable ground and placed within it rivers and made for it firmly set mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier? Is there a deity with Allah? [No], but most of them do not know.}}
===Qur'anist ("submitters", "Reformists", etc.)===


Another reference to "the two seas" is found in the story of Moses and his servant, where he meets a man (Al-Khidr) who has special knowledge of events that have not yet happened from god, and tests Moses to carry out seemingly immoral tasks without asking him why:
This minority group rejects the Hadith altogether and are classed as heretics by mainstream Islam. This "Qur'an-only" approach to the Islamic faith is not without [[Qur'an Only Islam - Why it is Not Possible|its criticisms]], as in the absence of hadith, much of Islamic ritual and religious history lacks basis.


{{Quote|{{Quran|18|60-61}}|And [mention] when Moses said to his servant, "I will not cease [traveling] until I reach the junction of the two seas or continue for a long period." But when they reached the junction between them, they forgot their fish, and it took its course into the sea, slipping away.}}
===Degrees of authenticity===
While circumstances surrounding and preceding the compilation of the hadith cast the entire corpus in a dubious light, the hadith cannot be viewed as entirely reliable or unreliable, as even hadith scholars themselves differentiate(d) between what they grade(d) as:


The full story of Moses ad Al-Khidr can be found at the bottom of the page for context.
[[Sahih|S''ahih'']] (authentic),


=== '''Apologists claims''' ===
''Hasan'' (good),


==== '''Estuaries and salt water''' ====
''Da'if'' (weak),
Apologists claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them, and even that the descriptions show advanced knowledge of science that could not have been known to a human. You can see the images referenced in this [https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm link] which are repeated on many Islamic websites.


The first claim is around fresh water from rivers meeting seas/oceans of salt water, with the transition stage known as [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary estuaries]:
[[List of Fabricated Hadith|''Mawdu''' (fabricated hadith)]],
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water.<b> (see Figure 4)


Figure 4: Longitudinal section showing salinity (parts per thousand ‰) in an estuary. We can see here the partition
and ''Munkar'' (rejected; referring usually to less reliable hadith that contradict more reliable hadith).
(zone of separation) between the fresh and the salt water. (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, p. 301, with a slight enhancement.)</b>


This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation).}}
Consequently, even from an Islamic standpoint, the vast, vast, majority of hadith floating around prior to the compilation of the hadith are considered unreliable. Most famously, the Sunni scholars [[Sahih Bukhari|Imam Bukhari]] (d. 870) and Imam Muslim (d. 875) are said to have sifted through hundreds of thousands of narrations to ultimately decide only a few thousand were truly reliable. Slightly earlier collections of hadith do exist, famously the collections of Imam Malik (d. 795) and Imam Ibn Hanbal (d. 855), but these are not considered as altogether reliable (even if individual traditions within these works are reliable) as the collections of Bukhari and Muslim.
''Note that in the above referenced claim in the book (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman), they have added the words “Zone of Separation” and “The partition" onto Figure 4 (saying “with slight enhancement”), which the book itself does not have - clearly to link the word 'partition' as translated into English by several authors in the Quran with the scientific book.''
==== Issues with this interpretation ====


===== Problems with miracle claim =====
Collections of hadith, unlike the Qur'an, are generally grouped topically, chronologically, or by the companion who is alleged to have narrated them (this last type of organization within a collection of hadith renders the work a ''musnad'', such as the ''Musnad'' ''of Imam Ahmad'').<ref>A. C. Brown, ''Hadith: an Introduction'', 2009</ref>
Critics point to issue's with inserting this is a scientific miracle, or even scientifically accurate:
# Firstly as with all claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clear<nowiki/>ly described a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into typical categories of selective literalism, de-historicization and pseudo-corelation etc. (''see [[Scientific Miracles in the Quran]]''), taking advantage of ambiguity in language to fit a modern reading rather than an honest one.
# The idea of the density of salt water being more than freshwater was already known to be discovered by Aristotle. ''“The drinkable, sweet water, then, is light and is al''<nowiki/>''l of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.” - Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC'')<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref>  
# This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sa<nowiki/>iling nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as they have done since ancient times<ref>''[https://www.bu.edu/archaeology/files/2016/05/Ancient-mariners-may-have-set-sail-130000-years-ago-_-Register-_-The-Times-The-Sunday-Times.pdf Ancient mariners may have set sail 130,000 years ago].'' ARCHAEOLOGY. The Times. Norman Hammond. 2016. Boston University Archive</ref>, as the colours are often different (as seen in the image on this page), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier placed by God between the two waters.
# This description also implies there is no mixing between them at all, and could just as easily be written by someone believing that someone believing there was no mixi<nowiki/>ng at all between them.
A deeper analysis can be found on the now defunct and archived former Wikiislam website' page on scientific miracles ''[https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran].''


===== Problems with general accuracy =====
===References in the Qur'an===
We are told that there are specifically '''the''' '''two seas (al-baḥrayn).'''
{{Quote|{{Quran|4|80}}|'''He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah''': But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).}}


* This uses the definite particle ''''al'''<nowiki/>' for 'the' for a specific two seas, not general.
{{Quote|{{Quran|7|158}}|Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. '''So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided'''."}}
* '''<nowiki/>'baḥr'''' for large body of water/sea.
* the dual s'''<nowiki/>'''uffi<nowiki/>x/ending in '''<nowiki/>'ayn'''' means there are two of them, as apposed to singular or plural (3 or more).


# Yet this happens in many places (there are over 1,200 documented estuaries,<ref>''[https://www.seaaroundus.org/about-estuaries-database/#:~:text=Specifically%2C%20this%20database%2C%20the%20first,and%20territories%20(Alder%202003). About Estuary Database].'' Sea Around Us. Jacqueline Alder. Citing: ''Alder J (2003) Putting the Coast in the Sea Around Us Project. The Sea Around Us Newsletter No. 15:1-2.''
==Historians' views on the reliability of the hadith==


</ref> i.e. more than two) across the world - nowhere does the language suggest this is the case, as to match this Qur'an verse it must be referring to a single specific but unnamed estuary. There are many far better ways to phrase this if it meant this phenomena.
===Ignác Goldziher (d. 1921)===
# There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. Salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them [https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html here] and on [https://www.coastalwiki.org/wiki/Salt_wedge_estuaries CostalWiki] for accessible science f<nowiki/>or the general reader), however despite what it may look like on the surface ''they all mix to varying degrees'' - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they cannot pass.
Ignác Goldziher, considered one of the "founder[s] of modern Islamic studies in Europe", wrote the following:
# It does not use the word specifically for river (نھر "Nahar" - a word also used elsewhere in the Qur'an to describe a river) and sea, which would have been an accurate<nowiki/> way to describe it. There is no need to describe something inaccurately, as they don't describe many other natural processes - e.g.<nowiki/> formation of deserts and forest, and so could have just left it out completely and avoided confusion.
{{Quote|{{citation|author=Ignác Goldziher|year=1971 (originally published 1890)|publisher=Allen and Unwin|volume=II|page=148|ISBN=|editor1=C.R. Barber|editor2=S.M. Stern|ISBN=9780042900094|title=Muslim Studies}}|It is not at all rare in the literature of traditions that sayings are ascribed to the Prophet which for a long time circulated in Islam under the authority of another name. So-called ''ahadith mawqufa'', i.e. sayings traced back to companions or even successors, were very easily transformed into ''ahadith marfu'a'', i.e. sayings traced back to the Prophet, by simply adding without much scruple a few names at random which were necessary to complete the chain.}}
# If the mixing zones isn't part of either 'sea' being mentioned but a 'barrier', then there are arguably 3 bodies of water in, and the language could reflect the mixing<nowiki/> zone by stating that one of them is made of both sweet and salty water (brackish water<ref>[https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est01_whatis.html#:~:text=The%20mixture%20of%20seawater%20and,%2C%20weather%2C%20or%20other%20factors. ''What is an Estuary?''] National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration</ref>). This also would separate it from the oth<nowiki/>er specific seas being referred to as we will discuss in the next section.


==== '''Two actual seas''' ====
===Joseph Schacht (d. 1969)===
Secondly, it states:
Joseph Schacht, the leading scholar on the history of Islamic law during his time, wrote the following:
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them.  This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density.  For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water. When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometres into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics. The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth <b>(see figure 13).
{{Quote|{{citation|author=Joseph Schacht|year=1979 (originally published 1950)|page=3|publisher=Oxford University Press|ISBN=9780198253570|title=The Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence}}|We shall have to conclude that, generally and broadly speaking, traditions from Companions and Successors are earlier than those from the Prophet.}}{{Quote|{{citation|author=Joseph Schacht|year=1979 (originally published 1950)|page=149|publisher=Oxford University Press|ISBN=9780198253570|title=The Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence}}|We shall not met any legal tradition from the prophet which can positively be considered authentic.}}{{Quote|{{citation|author=Joseph Schacht|year=1979 (originally published 1950)|page=165|publisher=Oxford University Press|ISBN=9780198253570|title=The Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence}}|[T]he backwards growth of the ''isnads'' in particular is identical with the projection of doctrines back to higher authorities. Generally speaking, we can say that the most perfect and complete ''isnads'' are the latest.}}


Figure 13 (Click here to enlarge)
===G.H.A. Juynboll (d. 2010)===
G.H.A. Juynboll was a leading scholar of hadith. His contributions to hadith studies have been called "substantial and groundbreaking"<ref>Brown, Jonathan A. C. (2008). "Book Reviews". ''Journal of Islamic Studies''. '''19''' (3): 391. doi:10.1093/jis/etn054. JSTOR 26200800.</ref>, and he has been called "talented and tireless".<ref>REINHART, A. KEVIN (2010). "Juynbolliana, Gradualism, the Big Bang, and Hadîth Study in the Twenty-First Century" (PDF). ''Journal of the American Oriental Society''. '''130''' (3): 417. Retrieved 4 June 2020.</ref>
{{Quote|{{citation|author=G.H.A. Juynboll|ISBN=9780511752155|title=Muslim Tradition: Studies in Chronology, Provenance and Authorship of Early Hadith|year=1983|page=5|url=https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/muslim-tradition/1C075FD8E0A868B1C8D1929CB90965BB|publisher=Cambridge University Press}}|In my view, before the institution of the isnad came into existence roughly three quarters of a century after the prophet’s death, the ''ahadith'' and the qisas (mostly legendary stories) were transmitted in a haphazard fashion if at all, and mostly anonymously. Since the isnad came into being, names of older authorities were supplied where the new isnad precepts required such. Often the names of well-known historical personalities were chosen but more often the names of ficti­tious persons were offered to fill the gaps in isnads which were as yet far from perfect.}}


Figure 13: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.)</b>  (Click on the image to enlarge it.)}}
===Patricia Crone (d. 2015)===
Patricia Crone was the leading scholar of early Islamic history during her time and held academic positions at institutions including Princeton, Oxford, and Cambridge universities.
{{Quote|{{citation|author=Patricia Crone|publisher=Cambridge University Press|page=33|url=https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/roman-provincial-and-islamic-law/2096ACD8148FC23080C492300269441A|title=Roman, Provincial and Islamic Law: The Origins of the Islamic Patronate|ISBN=9780511522246|year=1987}}|Bukhari is said to have examined a total of 600,000 traditions attributed to the Prophet; he preserved some 7,000 (including repetitions), or in other words dis­missed some 593,000 as inauthentic. If Ibn Hanbal examined a similar number of traditions, he must have rejected about 570,000, his collection containing some 30,000 (again including repetitions). Of Ibn Hanbal’s traditions 1,710 (including repetitions) are transmitted by the Companion Ibn Abbas. Yet less than fifty years earlier one scholar had estimated that Ibn Abbas had only heard nine traditions from the Prophet, while another thought that lhe correct figure might be ten. If Ibn Abbas had heard ten traditions from the Prophet in tire years around 800, but over a thousand by about 850, how many had he heard in 700 or 632? Even if we accept that ten of Ibn Abbas’ traditions are authentic, how do we identify them in the pool of 1,710? We do not even know whether they are to be found in this pool, as opposed to that of the 530,000 traditions dis­missed on the ground that their chains of authorities were faulty. Under such cir­cumstances it is scarcely justified to presume Hadith to be authentic until the contrary has been proved.}}


===== Problems with miracle claim and general science =====
===Robert G. Hoyland===
* Firstly, it is a leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two 'seas' mentioned in Quran 55:19-20 from the others, as they all use the same phrase to refer to a specific two seas it is implied the audience is already familiar with.
Robert G. Hoyland, Professor of Late Antique and Early Islamic Middle Eastern History at New York University and a leading historian of early Islam, writes:
* Quran 35:12 states ornaments for us to wear are from both seas, salty and sweet linking the coral and pearl this to the sweet and salty seas as repeated in verse 55:22.
* Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them implies this is for two specific seas, while this phenomena occurs in many places, even the North Atlantic, South Atlantic the Pacific Oceans have different salt levels.<ref>Joseph L. Reid, [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0146631361900442 On the temperature, salinity, and density differences between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in the upper kilometre,] Deep Sea Research (1953), Volume 7, Issue 4, 1961, Pages 265-275, ISSN 0146-6313, <nowiki>https://doi.org/10.1016/0146-6313(61)90044-2</nowiki></ref> And there are more examples of sills<ref>[https://www.britannica.com/science/sill Sill.] Geology. Science & Tech. Britannica Entry.</ref>, with some notable examples given [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_sill here] - which does not match a single specific case as the definite article used in the Quran suggests. For vertically mixed zones where salinity changes rapidly, a pycnocline zone, and more specifically, a halocline zone<ref>''[https://www.britannica.com/science/halocline Halocline.]'' Oceanography. Science & Tech. Britannia Entry.</ref>, is always a mixture of fresh water and salt water - in fact it is a product of their mixing.
* For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing, this is not true, as Piers Chapman of Texas A&M University writes on Waterencyclopedia<ref>[http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Ocean-Mixing.html ''Ocean Mixing.''] Water Encyclopaedia. ''Piers Chapman.'' </ref>: ''<nowiki/>'Mixing in the ocean occurs on several scales.. The best-known example of this process, known as salt fingering, occurs where very salty water from the Mediterranean outflow mixes into the North Atlantic... Most mixing, however, takes place on larger scales in response to forcing by the wind'''


== Historical context - Moses and Al-Khidr ==
{{Quote|{{citation|author=Robert G. Hoyland|year=2015|publisher=Oxford University Press|url=https://www.google.com/books/edition/In_God_s_Path/i3LDBAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0|title=In God's Path: The Arab Conquests and the Creation of an Islamic Empire|pages=136-137|ISBN=9780199916368}}|Muhammad’s practice and legislation was of course important to his community: the Arabs “kept to the tradition of Muhammad, their instructor, to such an extent that they inflicted the death penalty on anyone who was seen to act brazenly against his laws,” says the seventh-century monk John of Fenek. But new laws, the Umayyads would argue, were the business of caliphs. Religious scholars soon began to challenge this view, as we have said, and some did this by claiming that the doings and sayings of Muhammad had been accurately transmitted to them. It was rare in the first couple of generations after Muhammad: “I spent a year sitting with ‘Umar I’s son ‘Abdallah (d. 693),” said one legal scholar, “and I did not hear him transmit anything from the prophet.” Not much later, though, the idea had won some grass-roots support, as we learn from another scholar, writing around 740, who observes: “I never heard Jabir ibn Zayd (d. ca. 720) say: ‘the prophet said. . .’ and yet the young men round here are saying it twenty times an hour.” A little later again Muhammad’s sayings would be put on a par with the Qur’an as the source of all Islamic law. In Mu‘awiya’s time, though, this was still far in the future, and for the moment caliphs made law, not scholars.}}


=== Antiquity interpretation ===
===Andreas Görke===
There is another interpretation for this verse which critics argue is the only one to accurately fit this verse on a literal reading, which we will discuss below in the historical context. Which fits a prevalent antiquity (and pre-antiquity) view which was present across this region, and was also held in biblical cosmology and later Christian/Jewish exegesis, that this refers to a somewhat magical cosmic ocean surrounding the Earth.
Andreas Görke is senior lecturer of Islamic studies at the University of Edinburgh
{{Quote|{{citation|chapter=Prospects and Limits in the Study of the Historical Muhammad|pages=139-140|title=The Transmission and Dynamics of the Textual Sources of Islam|publisher=Brill|editor=Voort, et al.|year=2011|ISBN=978 90 04 20389 1|url=https://brill.com/view/title/17316|author=Andreas Görke}}|There are five main arguments against the reliability of these sources:<br>1. The Muslim accounts of the life of Muḥammad are only recorded in written sources that date from more than 150 years after Muḥammad’s purported death; they are neither supported by non-Muslim sources, nor substantiated by archaeological findings.<br>2. Some accounts are apparently inspired by verses from the Qurʾān. They thus do not constitute independent sources, but are only attempts to interpret Qurʾānic verses and to place them into a context.<br>3. Some accounts display obvious secondary tendencies that reflect later political, theological or legal debates.<br>4. Often, the existing accounts are contradictory. They contain conflicting information regarding chronology, persons involved, and the course of events that cannot be reconciled.<br>5. The motivation of the accounts’ creators and transmitters should not be considered to be purely historiographical. Instead, it has to be assumed that they aimed at presenting the life of Muḥammad as salvation history, to provide a context for the Qurʾānic text, support certain legal positions by tracing them back to the Prophet, provide certain persons with a particular status by emphasising their role in the Prophet’s surroundings, or simply to entertain. The accounts are thus not only reshaped and distorted by secondary tendencies, but were never meant to present the life of Muḥammad in any objective way.}}


Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, critics argue that the verse in question is scientifically wrong.
==See also==


*[[Sahih Bukhari]]
*[[Sahih Muslim]]
*[[Sahih]]


===External links===


The antiquity view is well summarised in Tommaso Tesei's article 'Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context' (https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19) which examines the Qur'ans verse, especially regarding words that have puzzled Islamic commentators. The full article can be read in the link which provides much deeper arguments than the summary:
====Online hadith collections in English====


'''[Do I need full story for context of what it's referring to here? Or just a summary of the story]Tomei Tomsei Cosmological notions (Tommaso Tesei Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19<nowiki/>)''' The story is taken from the Syriac Alexander Legend, which separate part of this chapter 18 Surah al-Kahf come from (''see [[Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance]]'')  
*[{{Compendium-of-muslim-texts-base-url}}/hadith/bukhari/ Sahih Bukhari]
*[{{Compendium-of-muslim-texts-base-url}}/hadith/muslim/ Sahih Muslim]
*[{{Compendium-of-muslim-texts-base-url}}/hadith/abudawud/ Sunan Abu Dawud (partial)]
*[{{Compendium-of-muslim-texts-base-url}}/hadith/muwatta/ Malik's Muwatta]
*[{{Reference archive|1=http://www.scribd.com/doc/16768046/Jami-a-Tirmidhi-Sunan-alTirmidhi|2=2011-10-07}} Jami al-Tirmidhi]
*[{{Compendium-of-muslim-texts-base-url}}/hadith/qudsi.php Hadith Qudsi] (hadith which contain non-Qur'anic words from Allah, repeated by Muhammad)


{{Quote|TT|starting with the word saraban which has puzzled commentators + fish regaining life: All we know is that the fish breaks loose near a rock at the junction of the two seas and that this event indicates to Moses that he has reached the goal of his journey. When examined in light of a legend concerning Alexander’s journey to the Land of the Blessed, during which he fails to bathe in the water of life, the episode acquires more sense, however. Specifically, the fish’s escape represents an allusion to the resurrection of a salt fish after Alexander’s cook washes it in the water of life. Muslim exegetes introduced some elements of this legend in their explanation of the narrative told in the Quran. In fact, the fish’s escape episode is usually related to the motif of the water of life.  Western scholars, too, almost unanimously consider this story of Alexander to be behind the Quranic account. The motif of the source of life reported in the legend concerning Alexander should certainly be understood in relation to the life-giving characteristics that Near Easterners attributed to the sweet waters of the rivers...
==References==
{{reflist}}


When at v. 63 the Quran states that the fish “took its way in the sea in a marvellous way,” it evidently refers to its wondrously being revived upon contact with the miraculous water. In fact, the enigmatic episode acquires sense only if read in light of the dynamic described in the legend of the water of life, and the extreme vagueness with which the Quran describes the episode suggests that its audience was expected to be acquainted with the Alexander tale...
[[Category:Shariah (Islamic Law)]]
 
[[Category:Hadith]]
..This version of the story of Alexander reflects a simple idea that follows the literal understanding of Gen 2:10–14, namely, that the earthly paradise could be reached by following the course of one of the four rivers. In fact, sources confirm that during late antiquity it was widely held that paradise was a physical place situated on the other side of the ocean encircling the earth. In accordance with this concept, it was generally assumed that the rivers lowing from paradise passed under this ocean to reach the inhabited part of the world. ..
[[Category:Sacred history]]
 
[[Category:Sahabah (companions)]]
..identification of the water of life with the rivers of paradise, as confirmed by Philostorgius and, more significantly, in the Talmudic version of the Alexander legend, and, on the other hand, the idea that these rivers lowed underground beneath the sea from paradise to the inhabited earth, as several authors report—it seems very likely that saraban in Q 18:63 is meant to describe the subterranean passage under the sea that the fish takes once resurrected by the miraculous water of the paradisiacal rivers...
[[Category:Muhammad]]
 
[[Category:Revelation]]
The example of the life that rain brings to the arid soil (e.g., Q 43:11: “and Who sent down out of heaven water in measure; and We revived thereby a land that was dead; even so you shall be brought forth”) is often adduced as proof of God’s ability to resurrect from death. (life creating qualities of cosmic ocean)..
[[Category:Salaf al-Salih (Pious Predecessors)]]
 
[[Category:Sirah]]
In Quranic cosmology, this expression is possibly intended to designate a place that has a specific role in the passage of the heavenly waters to earth. In light of the above, one can imagine majmaʿ al-baḥrayn as the place where the heavenly and terrestrial oceans meet, and from where the sweet waters reach the earth, by way of an underground course alluded to by the expression saraban..}}Other classical interpretations - Ptolemy's view?
[[Category:Islamic History]]
 
[[Category:Criticism of Islam]]
=== The two seas in Islamic literature ===
After {{Quran|18|60}} says he won't give up until he reaches the two seas, or has progressed for many ages, implying this junction is extremely far from any land, taking longer than any journey on our actual oceans would take. For example Christopher Columbus's journeys to America in the 1,400's took around 4 weeks to 6 months depending on the wind and weather.<ref>[https://www.royalcaribbean.com/guides/transatlantic-history-crossing-cruise#:~:text=Back%20in%20Columbus'%20day%2C%20sailing,was%20largely%20based%20on%20luck. ''How transatlantic history shaped the world as we know it.''] Royalcaribbean.com. Uploaded by Chantae Reden. 2022. Written by Claire Heginbotham.</ref> Which should have been far longer than any close ocean as later Islamic scholars have suggested
{{Quote|{{Quran|18|60}}|(Consider) when Moses said to his young companion, "I shall continue travelling until I reach the junction of the two seas or have travelled for many years".}}
 
In this story Moses goes with a 'servant of God' at the junction of the two seas, who is unnamed in the Qur'an but called 'Al-Khidr' in the Hadith. This man has extremely accurate foreknowledge of both future events and human nature ([[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Predestination|predestination]]), so he carries out seemingly strange immoral and tasks and asks Moses not to ask him about them - however Moses does, so after three events Al-Khidr parts ways with him and tells him why he committed the acts. He made a hole in the boat so it couldn't. His knowledge is so great and usually only reserved for God, yet he is able to teach such an importatn prophet as Moses and get annoyed with him - this fits coming from a special sea.
 
'''Only he will stop''' - remove long unnecessary section if it doesn't add anything {{Quran|18|60-82}}{{Quote|{{Quran|18|60-81}}|18:65 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge.
18:66 Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?”
18:67 He said, “Indeed, with me you will never be able to have patience.
18:68 And how can you have patience for what you do not encompass in knowledge?”
18:69 [Moses] said, “You will find me, if Allah wills, patient, and I will not disobey you in [any] order.”
18:70 He said, “Then if you follow me, do not ask me about anything until I make to you about it mention.”
18:71 So they set out, until when they had embarked on the ship, al-Khidr tore it open. [Moses] said, “Have you torn it open to drown its people? You have certainly done a grave thing.”
18:72 [Al-Khidr] said, “Did I not say that with me you would never be able to have patience?”
18:73 [Moses] said, “Do not blame me for what I forgot and do not cover me in my matter with difficulty.”
18:74 So they set out, until when they met a boy, al-Khidr killed him. [Moses] said, “Have you killed a pure soul for other than [having killed] a soul? You have certainly done a deplorable thing.”
18:75 [Al-Khidr] said, “Did I not tell you that with me you would never be able to have patience?”
18:76 [Moses] said, “If I should ask you about anything after this, then do not keep me as a companion. You have obtained from me an excuse.”
18:77 So they set out, until when they came to the people of a town, they asked its people for food, but they refused to offer them hospitality. And they found therein a wall about to collapse, so al-Khidr restored it. [Moses] said, “If you wished, you could have taken for it a payment.”
18:78 [Al-Khidr] said, “This is parting between me and you. I will inform you of the interpretation of that about which you could not have patience.
18:79 As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working at sea. So I intended to cause defect in it as there was after them a king who seized every [good] ship by force.
18:80 And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief.
18:81 So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.}}
 
 
 
This verse is expanded upon here: {{Bukhari|4|55|613}}
* Someone who has this foresight inclusion - future events and human nature ([[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Predestination|predestination]]) (ship sinking, boy becoming an unbeliever, orphans finding treasure) makes sense coming from god's sea - and disappears there after Moses keeps asking questions - this makes sense with them coming from a supernatural cosmic ocean
 
Usually appears after creation events: Q55:22 is mentioned just after creating humans and jinn, ({{Quran|35|12}} following creation of humans from clay.), and 27:61 - verse before mentions creating the heavens and the Earth.
=== Islamic Views ===
'''Hadith and Qur'an'''
 
In the two most authoritative hadith collections, we see in Sahih Bukhari that Muhammad is recorded as saying that when going into the seven heavens on a night journey (see [[Buraq]]), the rivers in paradise came to Earth via the Nile and [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphrates Euphrates]. This clearly backs up the idea that fresh water comes in via a freshwater cosmic ocean
{{Quote|{{Bukhari|4|54|429}}|...Then I was shown Sidrat-ul-Muntaha (i.e. a tree in the seventh heaven) and I saw its Nabk fruits which resembled the clay jugs of Hajr (i.e. a town in Arabia), and its leaves were like the ears of elephants, and four rivers originated at its root, two of them were apparent and two were hidden. I asked Gabriel about those rivers and he said, 'The two hidden rivers are in Paradise, and the apparent ones are the Nile and the Euphrates.'...}}
And this idea is backed up in Sahih Muslim:
{{Quote|{{Muslim|40|6807}}|Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Saihan, Jaihan, Euphrates and Nile are all among the rivers of Paradise.}}
 
From this Quran verse we see the highest heaven has a sea:
 
{{Quote|{{Quran|11|7}}|It is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days—and His Throne was [then] upon the waters—that He may test you [to see] which of you is best in conduct. Yet if you say, ‘You will indeed be raised up after death,’ the faithless will surely say, ‘This is nothing but plain magic.’}}As well as a hadith in Sunan Ibn Majah's collection, which although is rated 'weak', show's early Muslim understanding of the verses sea in the sky, above the seventh heaven:{{Quote|{{Ibn Majah||1|1|193}}|"I was in Batha with a group of people, among them whom was the Messenger of Allah. A cloud passed over him, and he looked at it and said: 'What do you call this?' They said: 'Sahab (a cloud).' He said: 'And Muzn (rain cloud).' They said: 'And Muzn.' He said: 'And 'Anan (clouds).' Abu Bakr said: "They said: 'And 'Anan.'" He said: 'How much (distance) do you think there is between you and the heavens?' They said: 'We do not know.' He said: 'Between you and it is seventy-one, or seventy-two, or seventy-three years, and there is a similar distance between it and the heaven above it (and so on)' until he counted seven heavens. <b>'Then above the seventh heaven there is a sea, between whose top and bottom is a distance like that between one heaven and another.</b> Then above that there are eight (angels in the form of) mountain goats. The distance between their hooves and their knees is like the distance between one heaven and the next. Then on their backs is the Throne, and the distance between the top and the bottom of the Throne is like the distance between one heaven and another. Then Allah is above that, the Blessed and Exalted."}}
 
'''Islamic Commentaries'''
 
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurtubi Al-Qurtubi], a prominent Sunni Scholar
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=5&tSoraNo=25&tAyahNo=53&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1 | title=Tafsir al-Qurtabi 25:53}}|Ibn Abbas and Ibn Jubayr said: It refers to the ocean of the sky and the ocean of the earth. Ibn Abbas further explained: They meet each other every year, and between them is a barrier decreed by Allah. "And a barrier between them is forbidden to be crossed." It is forbidden for the salty water to mix with the sweet water or for the sweet water to become salty.}}
Similarly Ibn Kathir
 
later commentaries after the flat earth model was rejected by astronomers state this barrier refers to land
{{Quote|2=(And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter;) means, He has created the two kinds of water, sweet and salty. The sweet water is like that in rivers, springs and wells, which is fresh, sweet, palatable water. This was the view of Ibn Jurayj and of Ibn Jarir, and this is the meaning without a doubt, for nowhere in creation is there a sea which is fresh and sweet. Allah has told us about reality so that His servants may realize His blessings to them and give thanks to Him. The sweet water is that which flows amidst people. Allah has portioned it out among His creatures according to their needs; rivers and springs in every land, according to what they need for themselves and their lands....
 
..<b>(a barrier) means a partition, which is dry land.</b>}}
This is obviously incorrect as coral doesn't form in fresh water, let alone springs. And the rivers are especially not connected - so is not a barrier between two seas?
 
large lakes referred to as seas, there is not a barrier between them. There are many lakes, springs and lagoons all over the world, they are not one body of water as the quran claims.
 
[https://islamqa.info/en/answers/165094/tafseer-of-the-verse-he-has-let-loose-the-two-seas-the-salt-water-and-the-sweet-meeting-together-between-them-is-a-barrier-which-none-of-them-can-transgress-ar-rahmaan-5519-20 (https://islamqa.info/en/answers/165094/tafseer-of-the-verse-he-has-let-loose-the-two-seas-the-salt-water-and-the-sweet-meeting-together-between-them-is-a-barrier-which-none-of-them-can-transgress-ar-rahmaan-5519-20])
 
 
Al-Tabari end of the Earth https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=1&tSoraNo=55&tAyahNo=19&tDisplay=yes&Page=2&Size=1&LanguageId=1
 
This idea of a cosmic ocean also has strong connections to the [[The Islamic Whale|Islamic whale]] swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back, a view held by most major traditional Islamic scholars on their Qur'an commentaries such as Al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Ar-Razi, Al Qurtubi etc.
 
'''Map of world with encircling ocean (al-Baḥr al-Muḥīṭ''' https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/encyclopaedia-of-islam-2/al-bahr-al-muhit-SIM_1064) '''P57 KMMS map Karen C. Pinto. In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision https://scholarworks.boisestate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=history_facpubs#:~:text=Teasing%20apart%20the%20depictions%2C%20this,Sea)%2Cand%20Bu%E1%B8%A5ayratKhw%C4%81rizm(Aral'''
 
=== The Biblical and Judeo-Christian background literature ===
The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedents of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature]].
 
The bible itself also contains a sea above the Earth
 
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://biblia.com/books/kjv1900/Ge1.6 | title=Genesis 1:10}}|(Genesis 1:6-10)  6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
 
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. }}
 
=== Other religions an cosmic waters ===
This may be compared to the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14</ref> Wensinck explains,<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17</ref> "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative).
 
Critics also wonder why if it really meant a natural phenomena such as the meeting of two seas, why would they describe one that also matched a highly mistaken antiquity view of teh world - for exmaple there is nothing about the creation of forests or deserts. The lines are not needed nor do they add anything to the text.
 
== Delete ==
The sea and rivers aren't permanently there, they completely change over time. Even the estuaries didn't exist when the Earth was made, so God letting the two bodies going free and a permanent barrier is false. Partition forbidden to pass - uses term for never - however entre sealine changes over time with rivers broken down and destroyed - and current 'seas' 'barrier' breaks down over time
 
Salt vs seawater - is estuary water sweet and palatable or filled with dirt?
 
*BBC Science focus article on Atlantic and Pacific oceans mixing, and that previous videos showing non-mixing are incorrect https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/is-it-true-that-the-pacific-and-atlantic-oceans-dont-mix
*- such as this kind of sea https://ecobnb.com/blog/2018/11/denmark-two-seas/ - explore - two salty bodies of water?
*When did the Gibraltar sill get created? Not permanent
*Scientific claim - Quran says absolutely nothing about different densities, hence no-one ever thought it did until many years after the discovery - Scientist William Hayes denouncing miracle claim (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eziurUGGens&list=PLC0D4187BE2661850&index=2)
 
== External links ==
 
* https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran - ''Previous Wikiislam page on this 'miracle'''
* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9Voh0xLLUw&t=105s Waters that Never mix] - ''YouTube video''
 
== References ==

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Hadith (حديث; pl. ahadith أحاديث) literally translates to mean "talk", but is most commonly used as an Islamic term that refers to the orally-transmitted accounts of Muhammad's life, wherein Muhammad does, says, or tacitly (that is, silently) approves of something. The hadiths, passed down orally before being written down, for the most part, some 150-200 years after Muhammad's death, are second in their religious authority only to the Qur'an and, since the collections of hadith are far, far vaster (and more detailed) than the (at times vague) Qur'an, they form the basis for the great majority of Islamic law and the Sunnah. Indeed, even the details regarding the Five Pillars of Islam are found only in the hadith (the Qur'an, focused more on matters of belief, simply mentions these rituals every once in a while without providing anything in the way of clear details).

More broadly, the word "Hadith" refers to the statements and actions of Muhammad as well as his companions. In the Shi'ite tradition, the term "Hadith" extends to include the statements and actions of the ahl al-bayt (Muhammad's descendants through Fatima, as well as the twelve Imams). Criticism of the Hadith

Religious and sectarian perspectives

Oral traditions and early sectarianism

Though the authenticity of any of the Hadith has come under increasing scrutiny in modern times (in light of scholarship on the reliability of oral traditions, virtually unending political conflicts after Muhammad's death, frequent internal contradiction, and, often, clear cases of fabrication), the early scholars of Islam responsible for the transcription of the hadith did themselves employ a seemingly sophisticated method of verification that relied on the plausibility of: the "chains" of transmission (or asaneed; sing. isnad) allegedly connecting the hadith back to the prophet, the reliability of the narrators' morals and memory, and, indeed, the matn, or text, of the hadith itself (that is, the plausibility of the prophet actually having said/done what the report attests to).

Despite this apparent rigor, the hadith would ultimately be compiled along sectarian, political, and polemical lines, generally with narrations supporting the compiling group's point of view (matn-based analysis playing no small part in this outcome). Today, Sunnis and Shi'ites have separate collections of hadiths. That the meaning of "hadith" extended to include the sayings and doings of Muhammad's companions, many of whom would be deeply embroiled in the political turmoil that would follow Muhammad's death (prominently, Ali and Aisha), only facilitated the splitting of the tradition.

Sunni perspective

The word 'Sunni' comes from the word 'Sunnah', and most of the world's Muslims (as many as 80-90%)[1][2][3][4][5] follow this Sunni form of Islam. There are certain Hadith collections considered by most Sunnis to be trustworthy and these are commonly known as the Authentic Six. Only two of them, however, are considered entirely authentic (sahih), and these are Bukhari and Muslim. These collections are second only to the Qur'an in authority. The others are from Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi, Nasa'i, and Ibn Majah. In strength, Malik's Muwatta' is placed just below the two Sahihs, but is not generally included among the authentic six.[6]

Shi'ite perspective

In Shi'ite Islam (approx 10-20% of the world's Muslim population)[1][7][4][5] they have their own collections and are more particular in regards to the Hadith narrations they will accept. If a narrator was not a member of the Ahl al-Bayt (Muhammad's household) or one of their supporters, then the narration is typically rejected. For example, they reject narrations from Abu Huraira. Al-Kafi is considered the most reliable collection of Shi'ite hadith.[8]

Qur'anist ("submitters", "Reformists", etc.)

This minority group rejects the Hadith altogether and are classed as heretics by mainstream Islam. This "Qur'an-only" approach to the Islamic faith is not without its criticisms, as in the absence of hadith, much of Islamic ritual and religious history lacks basis.

Degrees of authenticity

While circumstances surrounding and preceding the compilation of the hadith cast the entire corpus in a dubious light, the hadith cannot be viewed as entirely reliable or unreliable, as even hadith scholars themselves differentiate(d) between what they grade(d) as:

Sahih (authentic),

Hasan (good),

Da'if (weak),

Mawdu' (fabricated hadith),

and Munkar (rejected; referring usually to less reliable hadith that contradict more reliable hadith).

Consequently, even from an Islamic standpoint, the vast, vast, majority of hadith floating around prior to the compilation of the hadith are considered unreliable. Most famously, the Sunni scholars Imam Bukhari (d. 870) and Imam Muslim (d. 875) are said to have sifted through hundreds of thousands of narrations to ultimately decide only a few thousand were truly reliable. Slightly earlier collections of hadith do exist, famously the collections of Imam Malik (d. 795) and Imam Ibn Hanbal (d. 855), but these are not considered as altogether reliable (even if individual traditions within these works are reliable) as the collections of Bukhari and Muslim.

Collections of hadith, unlike the Qur'an, are generally grouped topically, chronologically, or by the companion who is alleged to have narrated them (this last type of organization within a collection of hadith renders the work a musnad, such as the Musnad of Imam Ahmad).[9]

References in the Qur'an

He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds).
Quran 4:80
Say: "O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided."
Quran 7:158

Historians' views on the reliability of the hadith

Ignác Goldziher (d. 1921)

Ignác Goldziher, considered one of the "founder[s] of modern Islamic studies in Europe", wrote the following:

It is not at all rare in the literature of traditions that sayings are ascribed to the Prophet which for a long time circulated in Islam under the authority of another name. So-called ahadith mawqufa, i.e. sayings traced back to companions or even successors, were very easily transformed into ahadith marfu'a, i.e. sayings traced back to the Prophet, by simply adding without much scruple a few names at random which were necessary to complete the chain.
Ignác Goldziher, C.R. Barber; S.M. Stern, eds, Muslim Studies, II, Allen and Unwin, p. 148, ISBN 9780042900094, 1971 (originally published 1890) 

Joseph Schacht (d. 1969)

Joseph Schacht, the leading scholar on the history of Islamic law during his time, wrote the following:

We shall have to conclude that, generally and broadly speaking, traditions from Companions and Successors are earlier than those from the Prophet.
Joseph Schacht, The Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence, Oxford University Press, p. 3, ISBN 9780198253570, 1979 (originally published 1950) 
We shall not met any legal tradition from the prophet which can positively be considered authentic.
Joseph Schacht, The Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence, Oxford University Press, p. 149, ISBN 9780198253570, 1979 (originally published 1950) 
[T]he backwards growth of the isnads in particular is identical with the projection of doctrines back to higher authorities. Generally speaking, we can say that the most perfect and complete isnads are the latest.
Joseph Schacht, The Origins of Muhammadan Jurisprudence, Oxford University Press, p. 165, ISBN 9780198253570, 1979 (originally published 1950) 

G.H.A. Juynboll (d. 2010)

G.H.A. Juynboll was a leading scholar of hadith. His contributions to hadith studies have been called "substantial and groundbreaking"[10], and he has been called "talented and tireless".[11]

In my view, before the institution of the isnad came into existence roughly three quarters of a century after the prophet’s death, the ahadith and the qisas (mostly legendary stories) were transmitted in a haphazard fashion if at all, and mostly anonymously. Since the isnad came into being, names of older authorities were supplied where the new isnad precepts required such. Often the names of well-known historical personalities were chosen but more often the names of ficti­tious persons were offered to fill the gaps in isnads which were as yet far from perfect.
G.H.A. Juynboll, Muslim Tradition: Studies in Chronology, Provenance and Authorship of Early Hadith, Cambridge University Press, p. 5, ISBN 9780511752155, 1983, https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/muslim-tradition/1C075FD8E0A868B1C8D1929CB90965BB 

Patricia Crone (d. 2015)

Patricia Crone was the leading scholar of early Islamic history during her time and held academic positions at institutions including Princeton, Oxford, and Cambridge universities.

Bukhari is said to have examined a total of 600,000 traditions attributed to the Prophet; he preserved some 7,000 (including repetitions), or in other words dis­missed some 593,000 as inauthentic. If Ibn Hanbal examined a similar number of traditions, he must have rejected about 570,000, his collection containing some 30,000 (again including repetitions). Of Ibn Hanbal’s traditions 1,710 (including repetitions) are transmitted by the Companion Ibn Abbas. Yet less than fifty years earlier one scholar had estimated that Ibn Abbas had only heard nine traditions from the Prophet, while another thought that lhe correct figure might be ten. If Ibn Abbas had heard ten traditions from the Prophet in tire years around 800, but over a thousand by about 850, how many had he heard in 700 or 632? Even if we accept that ten of Ibn Abbas’ traditions are authentic, how do we identify them in the pool of 1,710? We do not even know whether they are to be found in this pool, as opposed to that of the 530,000 traditions dis­missed on the ground that their chains of authorities were faulty. Under such cir­cumstances it is scarcely justified to presume Hadith to be authentic until the contrary has been proved.
Patricia Crone, Roman, Provincial and Islamic Law: The Origins of the Islamic Patronate, Cambridge University Press, p. 33, ISBN 9780511522246, 1987, https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/roman-provincial-and-islamic-law/2096ACD8148FC23080C492300269441A 

Robert G. Hoyland

Robert G. Hoyland, Professor of Late Antique and Early Islamic Middle Eastern History at New York University and a leading historian of early Islam, writes:

Muhammad’s practice and legislation was of course important to his community: the Arabs “kept to the tradition of Muhammad, their instructor, to such an extent that they inflicted the death penalty on anyone who was seen to act brazenly against his laws,” says the seventh-century monk John of Fenek. But new laws, the Umayyads would argue, were the business of caliphs. Religious scholars soon began to challenge this view, as we have said, and some did this by claiming that the doings and sayings of Muhammad had been accurately transmitted to them. It was rare in the first couple of generations after Muhammad: “I spent a year sitting with ‘Umar I’s son ‘Abdallah (d. 693),” said one legal scholar, “and I did not hear him transmit anything from the prophet.” Not much later, though, the idea had won some grass-roots support, as we learn from another scholar, writing around 740, who observes: “I never heard Jabir ibn Zayd (d. ca. 720) say: ‘the prophet said. . .’ and yet the young men round here are saying it twenty times an hour.” A little later again Muhammad’s sayings would be put on a par with the Qur’an as the source of all Islamic law. In Mu‘awiya’s time, though, this was still far in the future, and for the moment caliphs made law, not scholars.
Robert G. Hoyland, In God's Path: The Arab Conquests and the Creation of an Islamic Empire, Oxford University Press, pp. 136-137, ISBN 9780199916368, 2015, https://www.google.com/books/edition/In_God_s_Path/i3LDBAAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0 

Andreas Görke

Andreas Görke is senior lecturer of Islamic studies at the University of Edinburgh

There are five main arguments against the reliability of these sources:
1. The Muslim accounts of the life of Muḥammad are only recorded in written sources that date from more than 150 years after Muḥammad’s purported death; they are neither supported by non-Muslim sources, nor substantiated by archaeological findings.
2. Some accounts are apparently inspired by verses from the Qurʾān. They thus do not constitute independent sources, but are only attempts to interpret Qurʾānic verses and to place them into a context.
3. Some accounts display obvious secondary tendencies that reflect later political, theological or legal debates.
4. Often, the existing accounts are contradictory. They contain conflicting information regarding chronology, persons involved, and the course of events that cannot be reconciled.
5. The motivation of the accounts’ creators and transmitters should not be considered to be purely historiographical. Instead, it has to be assumed that they aimed at presenting the life of Muḥammad as salvation history, to provide a context for the Qurʾānic text, support certain legal positions by tracing them back to the Prophet, provide certain persons with a particular status by emphasising their role in the Prophet’s surroundings, or simply to entertain. The accounts are thus not only reshaped and distorted by secondary tendencies, but were never meant to present the life of Muḥammad in any objective way.
Andreas Görke, "Prospects and Limits in the Study of the Historical Muhammad", In Voort, et al., The Transmission and Dynamics of the Textual Sources of Islam, Brill, pp. 139-140, ISBN 978 90 04 20389 1, 2011, https://brill.com/view/title/17316 

See also

External links

Online hadith collections in English

References

  1. ↑ 1.0 1.1 Comparison of Sunni and Shia Islam - ReligionFacts
  2. ↑ Islām - Encyclopædia Britannica (2010)
  3. ↑ Sunnite - Encyclopædia Britannica (2010)
  4. ↑ 4.0 4.1 Mapping the Global Muslim Population: A Report on the Size and Distribution of the World’s Muslim Population - Pew Research Center, October 7, 2009
  5. ↑ 5.0 5.1 Tracy Miller - Mapping the Global Muslim Population: A Report on the Size and Distribution of the World's Muslim Population - Pew Research Center, October 2009
  6. ↑ Various Issues About Hadiths - by Sh. G. F. Haddad
  7. ↑ Shīʿite - Encyclopædia Britannica Online (2010)
  8. ↑ Al Kafi - The Bukhari of Shi'ism - AHYA
  9. ↑ A. C. Brown, Hadith: an Introduction, 2009
  10. ↑ Brown, Jonathan A. C. (2008). "Book Reviews". Journal of Islamic Studies. 19 (3): 391. doi:10.1093/jis/etn054. JSTOR 26200800.
  11. ↑ REINHART, A. KEVIN (2010). "Juynbolliana, Gradualism, the Big Bang, and Hadîth Study in the Twenty-First Century" (PDF). Journal of the American Oriental Society. 130 (3): 417. Retrieved 4 June 2020.
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