User:CPO675/Sandbox 1

In answer to your questions, no-one had been planning to bring it back. I think it was deleted and left in the archive during a clear out of scientific miracle articles (there used to be an excessive number with lots of very minor topics). This one may be worth a redo with some of the old content, but probably best to check with ASmith first who was involved in that process. Lightyears (talk) 01:11, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

A barrier between two seas

Order

1. Intro
2. What they Quran says
3. Why is it incorrect - the science
4. Apologist claim? here or above the science?
5. refutation of apologist claim
6. Why is it incorrect
7. Other groups that have the same mythology
8. Who knew that salt and fresh water didn't mix - Archimides
9. The historical context

Introduction

The Quran refers to two different bodies of water, emphasising there is one sweet and one fresh, that there is a batter between

When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them.

The Qur'an

We are told that there are two seas(l-baḥrayni), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass.

• Problem - the seas do mix - get source, there is no barrier between them - the definition of a barrier is literally something that blocks (so has been stretched here)
• Partition forbidden to pass - uses term for never - however entre sealine changes over time with rivers broken down and destroyed - and current 'seas' 'barrier' breaks down over time
• This happens everywhere all across the world - why talking about two seas with 'al' particle (happens with all sweet and salty water/less dense water) - historical context
• Doesn't say riverنھر (Nahar) - although to be fair every large body of water was referred to using this word in classical Arabic. A specific word for ocean or lake did not exist either.
• Salt vs seawater - is estuary water sweet and palatable or filled with dirt?
• Much better ways to write this verse that would actually fit with the science (give examples)
• Link historical context of premeal waters to the whale story too
• Coral does not occur in fresh water, which causes coral bleaching ^[1]
• Scientific claim - Quran says absolutely nothing about different densities, hence no-one ever thought it did until many years after the discovery - Scientist William Hayes denouncing miracle claim

Quran 55:22 quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching.

(يَبْغِيَانِ yabghiyāni - they transgress) (بَيْنَهُمَا baynahumā - Between both of them) (l-baḥrayni - the two seas)

Again, there is a barrier between the two seas "al-bahrain, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ". l-baḥrayni

Another reference to "the two seas" (l-baḥrayni) is found in the story of Moses and his servant, where a man (Al-Khidr) who has special knowledge of events that have not yet happened from god:

The full story of Moses ad Al-Khidr can be found at the bottom of the page for context.

Apologists claim

Apologists claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them.

- in the above book, they have both enhaced itThe words “Zone of Separation” and “The partition” have been added on to Figure 4 by the apologists, the book does not claim such a thing.

However critics point out, as above, that a partition zone is not an accurate way to describe a barrier, and that the seas do mix - they are constantly mixing. this is changing the meaning of the words to fit a natural phenomena

For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing , this is not true, as Piers Chapman - Oceanography - Texas A&M University writes in Water Encyclopedia Ocean Mixing http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Ocean-Mixing.html

There is no need to describe something inaccurately, as they don't describe many other natural processes

Anyone who rode over the seas could write the same thing assuming there is a barrier between the two seas

The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedants of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature.

It may further be compared to the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath". Wensinck explains, "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative).

Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, critics argue that the verse in question is scientifically wrong.

Historical context - Moses and Al-Khidr

The two seas in Islamic literature

• Someone who has this foresight makes sense coming from god's sea - and disappears there after Moses keeps asking questions
• Not actually named in Quran (only called a servant of God)- only hadith name him
• the Islamic whale swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back

Other religions an cosmic waters

This may be compared to the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".^[2] Wensinck explains,^[3] "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative).