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Simon Ockley again

My Arab friends have given me some help about Simon Ockley's translation of the paedophilia text. Simon Ockley was translating this text. https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=xLJEAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&authuser=0&hl=en. You can scroll forward to page 23, where you will recognise the words Mohamet, Abu Bakr, Aisha. There is no serious doubt that Ockley has made an accurate translation of Maracci's Latin. You will see that the Arab scholar was called Abdulrahman al-Hamdani. My friends say that the title of his book is Al-Shabayat. They cannot read Latin and I did not tell them what it was about. I just asked them about the sentence of Arabic. They said it means: "He reached out his blessed arm and grabbed her by the clothes." They were very surprised by this odd sentence. I had to explain to them that it was probably a quote from the book, and the story was about Muhammad and Aisha. So I think we can fairly say that Maracci did have access to a real book and that he made a fair translation of the story. Now we must try to find out who the scholar was and when he lived. Perhaps then we can establish the reliability of his narrative. But there is something about it that rings horribly true. I don't think a Muslim hagiographer would have invented this story.1234567 (talk) 05:01, 13 April 2013 (PDT)

Interesting! Thanks for keeping us posted. --Sahabah (talk) 11:10, 13 April 2013 (PDT)

Essay about the Ages of Muhammad's Wives

The essay submission function seems to be out of action today.

Hi. I'm moving everything to this page (you can continue editing there): Ages of Muhammad's Wives at Marriage. Let me know when you have finished. Thanks.--Sahabah (talk) 05:13, 15 April 2013 (PDT)

I'll check the Essay sumbission page. The apostate submission is also not working probably due to the last software update. --Axius (talk) 05:26, 15 April 2013 (PDT)

I fixed it, thankfully it was an easy fix. This had not been working for the last 2 weeks when I updated the edit monitoring system.--Axius (talk) 18:17, 15 April 2013 (PDT)

Good. I'm sure there's a way round such problems for people like me, but we wouldn't want to make life any harder for the apostates.1234567 (talk) 18:23, 15 April 2013 (PDT)

1234567, like your other two pages, I think this page will be good for the main space. All of your calculations are based on the Islamic sources which is what we require. If you have no objections I will do that.

Also, for future articles, note that we like to include the entire relevant quote from the source rather than only the name and number of a hadith/section of Tabari etc. See the 72 Virgins article's references to get an idea of what I mean.

So, rather than this: <ref>{{Bukhari|4|54|476}}</ref>

We will have this: <ref>"''Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "The first batch (of people) who will enter Paradise will be (glittering) like the full moon, and the batch next to them will be (glittering) like the most brilliant star in the sky. Their hearts will be as if the heart of a single man, for they will have neither enmity nor jealousy amongst themselves; everyone will have two wives from the houris, (who will be so beautiful, pure and transparent that) the marrow of the bones of their legs will be seen through the bones and the flesh.''" - {{Bukhari|4|54|476}}</ref> --Sahabah (talk) 18:52, 15 April 2013 (PDT)

I have no objection to doing this, but it will be a huge amount of information.1234567 (talk) 19:06, 15 April 2013 (PDT)

Also there is no objection to categorising my essay however you like. Note, however, that I did make a few mildly emotive comments on my conclusions. At present I have not much to add to the content, but I am not satisfied with a few of the pictures, so I will spend a little longer looking for good ones.1234567 (talk) 19:09, 15 April 2013 (PDT)

I like the idea of the full quotes too. They're very useful/convenient, especially for content that cannot be readily accessed/checked/read (books, etc). --Axius (talk) 19:37, 15 April 2013 (PDT)

Great. Although I wouldn't trouble myself with looking for new images. We prefer minimal images in pages. A single image can be great. We can use it in our main random image+article template. Two is sometimes necessary. Any more than that (unless it's scientific diagrams) IMO is overkill.--Sahabah (talk) 19:42, 15 April 2013 (PDT)

1234567, about the images, they do make the article visually interesting but sometimes they're not related so some images may not need to be included. Do you have anything to say in defense of them, of why you'd like to include them? In any case we're focusing on the factual statements so if they're not included its ok in my opinion. Maybe they can be included at the end when all the articles have been written. What do you think? --Axius (talk) 04:53, 16 April 2013 (PDT)

I don't feel strongly if you'd prefer not to have them. But in my experience, people are more likely to read an article that has pictures. I have a lurking suspicion that this article is not very interesting. On one hand, it's a list of facts and figures, which is difficult to read. On the other hand, it is impossible to endorse the conclusion unless one has made the effort to do the reading. That is why, despite the ready availability of the information, nobody has ever before published anything similar. So pictures might draw the audience in. But it's not as if I painted them myself. So it doesn't bother me personally if you leave them out.

I think I've filled in all the references now, so I will resist the temptation to make any more changes.1234567 (talk) 05:02, 16 April 2013 (PDT)

I understand your concerns, but I think they are unfounded. What makes an article interesting is the value of its content, and this article has it in spades. A comparative article would be this one (spit into two parts):

• http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dhul-Qarnayn_and_the_Sun_Controversy_in_the_Qur%27an_(Part_One)
• http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dhul-Qarnayn_and_the_Sun_Controversy_in_the_Qur%27an_(Part_Two)

It is very long and I'm sure many would consider it difficult to read, but it's one of our most valued articles. And it has not a single image. IMO the wives article looks a whole lot better without the images. With them it make the page a lot more cluttered and vastly lowers its tone. About drawing readers in, I can almost guarantee a page like this will receive a lot of views on WikiIslam. Related sites critical of Islam may not find pages like this to be a success, but then their target audience is usually different to ours. And TBH this site is there for those who want to actually learn accurate facts about Islam. If a reader needs images to keep them interested, then they're at the wrong site. --Sahabah (talk) 12:00, 16 April 2013 (PDT)

It looks pretty good. Thank you for fixing my broken link to the Aisha-apologetics.

Who is Madudi and what is Tafhimul Quran about? I don't have a problem with your adding the detail that Zaynab was Muhammad's cousin; although not strictly relevant to the topic, it adds interest. (But it won't shock a British reader very much. Queen Victoria also married her first cousin.) However, I probably ought to know something about the reference to which I'm supposed to have referred. I have added the early-source references that prove their kinship.

I will be writing more about Zaynab's whole family very soon. There are gaps in her biography (nobody seems to know the name of her first husband, and the popular story that Muhammad built her a nice little workshop for her leather-crafts doesn't seem to be trackable to a primary source) but a ridiculous amount is known about her five siblings.1234567 (talk) 19:30, 16 April 2013 (PDT)

You're welcome. It's a tafsir (The Meaning of the Qur'an) by Abul A'la Maududi. Thanks for adding references to the primary sources! Yeah, those Royals did love their inbreeding, but they're not the founders or lawmakers of the second largest religion. A lot of Muslims deny Muhammad ever married a cousin, and too few non-Muslims are aware of it. --Sahabah (talk) 22:43, 16 April 2013 (PDT)

hi 1234567, after this discussion about images, we made a new policy on images that basically says "any number of images are welcome as long as they are directly related to the article". So there's no limit of 2 images per article any longer. So for example some of the ones you uploaded (File:Khadija.jpg, File:Al-Uzza with Zodiac.jpg, File:Mount Hira Cave.jpg, etc) were great and we would love to have images like that because they are directly related to the article content and are very informative. --Axius (talk) 18:52, 20 April 2013 (PDT)

I think Al-Uzza would look good in an article about the Satanic Verses. In fact, there is around the internet some lovely neo-Pagan artwork featuring Semitic deities, but most of it would attract copyright restrictions. The image I posted here is public domain.1234567 (talk) 23:29, 20 April 2013 (PDT)

I've added it here: http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Satanic_Verses_(The_Life_of_Mahomet) . Yeah, it looks good in that one. However, (Axius can correct me if I'm wrong) neo-Pagan artwork would fall outside of the new policies, even if they were not copyright restricted. --Sahabah (talk) 03:30, 21 April 2013 (PDT)

Any examples of that artwork on a temporary upload or external link? Thanks for adding that image. --Axius (talk) 09:10, 21 April 2013 (PDT)

Okay, that wasn't a no, meaning you would consider it. But wouldn't neo-Pagan (i.e. contemporary pagan) artwork be the same as you considering graffiti artwork if it was of a pagan goddess? Unlike the other image provided by 1234567, it wouldn't have any historical connection to the subject. It would just be for "illustrative" purposes (something the new policies say no to).--Sahabah (talk) 09:18, 21 April 2013 (PDT)

I was just wondering what it looks like. --Axius (talk) 09:25, 21 April 2013 (PDT)

A google search brought up this - everything both ancient and modern. https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Al-Uzza+Al-Lat+Manat&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=K2N0UcPHLdCYiAeh8oDwAQ&ved=0CDoQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=621

Yes, I see what you mean about neo-Pagan artwork being a modern reconstruction that would probably have only tenuous links to the original paganism. (Pace those modern pantheists who think otherwise; but neo-Pagans do not sacrifice their infants to Molech!) The spirit of the reconstruction is not too difficult to hit off in the case of the Arabian trinity, since Al-Uzza is Minerva/Athena and Al-Lat is Ceres/Demeter. Manat has no obvious European parallel (the Graiai? Nemesis?), which explains something about the differences between the two cultures; but she is nevertheless a recognisable "type".1234567 (talk) 15:12, 21 April 2013 (PDT)

Thanks for the link and info. That is definitely way above my level of expertise/knowledge in that area, but it sounds really interesting. --Axius (talk) 10:54, 27 April 2013 (PDT)

New articles based on your talk page comments

hi 1234567, you had left these two talk page comments: (1) Talk:Polygamy_in_Islam#Muhammad_married_poor_widows_to_save_them_from_destitution and (2) Talk:Polygamy_in_Islam#Muhammad_committed_polygamy_out_of_political_necessity. These two items could be polished and sourced and moved into a new article for example Charity and Political Necessity of Muhammad's Marriages and there can be a combined conclusion like we have here. This new article can then be linked from Polygamy in Islam in the section Muhammad and Polygamy.

Your first edit was a comment here: Talk:Unjust Treatment of Wives (Qur'an 4:129) and maybe that can be used in some way as well in that article Unjust Treatment of Wives (Qur'an 4:129).

Your knowledge of Muhammad and women in his life and your strong interest in this topic is great and I'm glad you decided to come here share and create what you have.

A few other things, if you like:

• You can create Sandbox links in your user space and use them for as scratchpads for any purpose, e.g. Sandbox 1, Sandbox 2, Sandbox 3 etc, as many as you like. These can be linked on your user page like User:Sahabah has it
• Old comments on your talk page can be moved into archives: User talk:1234567/Archive
• Its easy to rename a user (if you'd like to use Petra or anything else, for example), or keep it as it is.

--Axius (talk) 10:49, 27 April 2013 (PDT)

Thanks for the reminder. I am in fact feeling the need of sandboxes.

I was planning to write an article about how none of Muhammad's wives was a destitute widow, a kind of companion piece to the one about how none of them was elderly. While I would also like to write one about how none of the marriages was politically necessary, that one will be more difficult to hit off correctly. It would involve speculation about what would have happened if he had not acted, e.g., if Khadija had lived another 15 years and therefore he had never married any of the others. And of course we never know what would have happened. However, it's pretty obvious to me that if Muhammad had never married any of these other women, the big difference to the progress of Islam would have been close to zero.

I'm currently working on the biographical essay about Aisha. As a biography, it really ought to include some paragraphs about her long widowhood, but I don't have good resources for that at present. I shall probably submit it with only a brief overview of her later life, but add more about this in future, when I have bought a few more books. The stunning thing about Aisha is how she didn't seem to believe in Islam at all, yet she was nevertheless its foremost proponent.

After that, we have a choice. I could just work through all the wives in chronological order (Sawda, then Hafsa, then Zaynab ... etc.). Or I could follow your original brief, which was a request for controversy, and deal with the major scandals first. The existing article about Safiya needs to be tidied, and there are some great little tidbits that are not commonly known (were you aware that the murdered poet Kaab ibn Al-Ashraf was her cousin, almost certainly a person to whom she was close?). And I notice that so far you don't have any single article about Zaynab bint Jahsh. Again, the story as it's usually told is different from what the sources say: Zayd actually had three other wives beside Zaynab, and he was (at least) her second husband.

As for the unjust treatment of wives, I think the story about food distribution belongs in the article about Zaynab. For each wife, I shall be writing about how she got along with her co-wives. So any story that involves interactions between two or more of the wives will be included on the page of the wife whom Muhammad married latest. E.g., I have written about how Aisha (second wife) was jealous of the other women but not included specifics about those women. Aisha's general relationship with Sawda (third wife - at least according to Aisha) will be in the article about Sawda, but the incident in which Aisha and Hafsa (fourth wife) colluded to tease Sawda will be under Hafsa. Mariya (thirteenth wife) will not be mentioned until she gets her own article, even though it was an episode in which all the previous wives were involved.1234567 (talk) 16:00, 28 April 2013 (PDT)