Talk:Scientific Errors in the Quran

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This page is linked often from other websites and should be edited with care.

An error should be included only if it cannot be justified or explained in any way. In other words the error should be obvious. The following points should be noted:

• The error should not be attributable to a translation issue and must be valid for the verse in Arabic (when necessary, Arabic speakers should be consulted)
• The error should be shown in at least 2 translations (Shakir, Yusuf or Pickthall)
• These are the only translations that can be used
• Use the translation which is the most easy to understand.
• The error is obvious and cannot be attributed to "figure of speech". An example is "We will blow up the sky" (this is just an example and may not be a real verse). This should not be listed as an error. A counter-claim may be that they may have been talking about the sun expanding and engulfing the Earth (this will eventually happen). Errors that can be explained by apologists in this way should not be listed.
• Weaker errors can be listed in a separate section at the bottom called "Other Quranic verses" with a note "The following are Quranic verses which may contain figures of speech but are still questionable". For this section, the verses should be listed without any section headings. The reason is that a record of such verses should still be kept but these verses should not be presented as obvious errors. These weaker verses are not as strong as others but they could still be seen as adding to the evidence against the Quran.

Constellations

For my edit here [1]

Blessed is He Who made constellations in the skies, and placed therein a Lamp and a Moon giving light; [2]

Basically its just saying "However the stars are made, we made them and we arranged them like that", so I agree with Lightyears (talk | contribs) unless Saggy you have any additional stuff to say. --Axius (talk | contribs) 15:13, 15 May 2014 (PDT)

"We arranged them like that" is the mistake. Same as the errors pointed out above it (sun, moon and its phases are made for our timekeeping and stars created for navigation). I wrote the light years to show stars are not where they appear (it may not be needed). Hence constellations are imaginations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Saggy (talk • contribs) (Remember to sign your comments)

To humans stars have a certain arrangement. Yes that arrangement would change if we were looking it from another place for example the center of the galaxy buy they have an arrangement for people on Earth.

But good job on finding that other verse for the Stars in the lower heaven. Did you find that error verse yourself or you saw it somewhere else? If you saw it yourself, are you going through the Quran systematically chapter by chapter? Thats good. What are you using to browse the Quran, what website? --Axius (talk | contribs) 16:34, 16 May 2014 (PDT)

there are not many errors to find, i have not gone chapter by chapter recently (only for details article). decoration verse was already present.

You didnt yet decide on constel. What I am thinking upon recently is that we look for errors dont we? Then if something is removed, it has to be absolutely correct. Think like that. Is "Allah made constellations" or "mansions" correct? Any one of the two translations can be quoted and then the other explained. Also in 36:39, Moon has mansions (though the word is manzil and not burooj). one more question , if this constelation thing is refutable, doesnt it mean all mythology is true or zodiacs are true? I read this q somewhere. Then Why Islam rejects zodiacs as far as I know? This verse must soon go somewhere: here or the lack of details page or the questions to ask a muslim page. Saggy (talk) 07:30, 17 May 2014 (PDT)

So what website do you use for looking at the Quran? Islam awakened?

"we made constellations" = we arranged the stars like that. If it can be explained its not good to have it on the page. I dont know what the connection is for zodiacs. The verse is only talking about the stars arrangement, not zodiacs. I dont know what Islam says about zodiacs.

The moon verse [3] is just talking about the appearance of the moon. --Axius (talk | contribs) 08:50, 17 May 2014 (PDT)

Some stray translation includes zodiacs. "we arranged the stars" - as i said before, it cannot be explained. In 36:39 what i wanted to show is that moon has mansions. So its another case of faulty cosmology, same is with constellations being called mansions.Saggy (talk) 03:38, 18 May 2014 (PDT)

"The error should not be attributable to a translation issue"

We cannot have the approach that we have to find the translation that includes the 'error' we want to point out. Looking at the all the translations as a whole its clear its talking about the arrangement of the stars, nothing more. --Axius (talk | contribs) 04:52, 18 May 2014 (PDT)

Can you do one thing - just add the Scientific Quran errors to your Sandbox page for now: User:Saggy/Sandbox_-_Issues_with_Quran_and_Hadith. These can be reviewed and added to the main article in the end when you're done. Its more mental work to review them one at a time. It will also be easier for you as you can do what you like in your Sandbox without feeling restricted. --Axius (talk | contribs) 20:09, 18 May 2014 (PDT)

I see what Saggy means - what Saggy added when putting constellations back (and was originally missing) was that because stars are varying distances and a long way away, we are looking back in time when we see them - and a different amount of time for each star. So if a constellation consists of a star 50 light years away and another 1000 light years away, then their relative positions that we see today when their ancient light reaches our eyes does not reflect their actual relative positions. It's a clever and interesting point, but there are a couple of reasons why Muslims would still be very unmoved by the claim that there is an error here. Firstly, the stars that we can see in the constellations are all fairly close - a few hundred to about a thousand light years away. So what we see isn't significantly different to how they are (this indicates how much they move in 50000 years, but we're talking about hundreds). The other thing is that any Muslim who believes that Allah designed the constellations will have no trouble believing that he took the light travel time into account and was only concerned with how they look from earth.Lightyears (talk) 09:13, 23 May 2014 (PDT)

Your claims mean this: a Muslim must agree constellations have been made for us? Since constellations hardly change for hundred or thousand years and the age of those stars is certainly millions to billions of years, he must agree that Allah planted those stars with their perceived design on earth so long ago? We humans got separated from the chimps only some 1 or 2 million years ago? (for whoever is stuborn on Adam: he is dated as even more recent than evolution.) We started using those constellations for guidance or fun much later? All of this was planned for "us" billions of years ago? Saggy (talk) 10:57, 23 May 2014 (PDT)

Exactly that. They would say the same for the position of the continents today or any number of things. Clearly Muslims have no problem with multi-million or billion year processes being set in motion with today's world as the end result in mind. Otherwise endless things about the world today would seem a problem for them. What originally triggered me to question the quality of this entry was when I saw a Muslim saying they laughed when they saw this one. It shouldn't be easy for anyone to pick what they see as a weak example to dismiss the whole page.Lightyears (talk) 11:16, 23 May 2014 (PDT)

No, we are not Allah's reality TV. Such things were not pre-planned and anybody who still believes in the contrary is either ignorant or he's straight on the way to his 72 virgins which are obviously planned according to him :):):). Your approach is that somebody will cry out he has refuted an error and then we will have to cleanup. What about him digesting a hundred absurdities when trying to refute one? It always happens on answeringchristianity.org and all blogs where errors are discussed. Saggy (talk) 11:19, 23 May 2014 (PDT)