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User:CPO675/Sandbox 1: Difference between revisions
→A barrier between two seas
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== A barrier between two seas == | == A barrier between two seas == | ||
Order | |||
# Intro | |||
# What they Quran says | |||
# Why is it incorrect - the science | |||
# Apologist claim? here or above the science? | |||
# refutation of apologist claim | |||
# Why is it incorrect | |||
# Other groups that have the same mythology | |||
# Who knew that salt and fresh water didn't mix - Archimides | |||
# The historical context | |||
=== Introduction === | === Introduction === | ||
The Quran refers to two different bodies of water, emphasising there is one sweet and one fresh, that there is a batter between | |||
When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them. | When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them. | ||
=== The Qur'an === | === The Qur'an === | ||
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*Much better ways to write this verse that would actually fit with the science (give examples) | *Much better ways to write this verse that would actually fit with the science (give examples) | ||
*Link historical context of premeal waters to the whale story too | *Link historical context of premeal waters to the whale story too | ||
*Scientific claim - | *Coral does not occur in fresh water, which causes coral bleaching <ref>[https://ocean.si.edu/ocean-life/invertebrates/corals-and-coral-reefs Corals and Coral Reefs] - Smithsonian Institution website</ref> | ||
*Scientific claim - Quran says absolutely nothing about different densities, hence no-one ever thought it did until many years after the discovery - Scientist William Hayes denouncing miracle claim | |||
{{Quran|55|22}} quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching. | {{Quran|55|22}} quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching. | ||
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The full story of Moses ad Al-Khidr can be found at the bottom of the page for context. | The full story of Moses ad Al-Khidr can be found at the bottom of the page for context. | ||
=== '''Apologists claim''' === | |||
Apologists claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them. | |||
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water.<b> (see Figure 4) | |||
Figure 4: Longitudinal section showing salinity (parts per thousand ‰) in an estuary. We can see here the partition | |||
(zone of separation) between the fresh and the salt water. (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman, p. 301, with a slight enhancement.)</b> | |||
This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation).[5]}} | |||
- in the above book, they have both enhaced itThe words “Zone of Separation” and “The partition” have been added on to Figure 4 by the apologists, the book does not claim such a thing. | |||
However critics point out, as above, that a partition zone is not an accurate way to describe a barrier, and that the seas do mix - they are constantly mixing. this is changing the meaning of the words to fit a natural phenomena | |||
For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing , this is not true, as Piers Chapman - Oceanography - Texas A&M University writes in Water Encyclopedia Ocean Mixing http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Ocean-Mixing.html | |||
There is no need to describe something inaccurately, as they don't describe many other natural processes | |||
Anyone who rode over the seas could write the same thing assuming there is a barrier between the two seas | |||
The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedants of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature]]. | The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedants of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature]]. | ||
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Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, critics argue that the verse in question is scientifically wrong. | Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, critics argue that the verse in question is scientifically wrong. | ||
== Moses and Al-Khidr == | == Historical context - Moses and Al-Khidr == | ||
=== The two seas in Islamic literature === | |||
{{Quote|{{Quran|18|65-81}}|18:65 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge. | {{Quote|{{Quran|18|65-81}}|18:65 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge. | ||
18:66 Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?” | 18:66 Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?” | ||
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* Someone who has this foresight makes sense coming from god's sea - and disappears there after Moses keeps asking questions | * Someone who has this foresight makes sense coming from god's sea - and disappears there after Moses keeps asking questions | ||
* Not actually named in Quran (only called a servant of God)- only hadith name him | * Not actually named in Quran (only called a servant of God)- only hadith name him | ||
* the [[The Islamic Whale|Islamic whale]] swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back | |||
=== Other religions an cosmic waters === | |||
This may be compared to the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14</ref> Wensinck explains,<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17</ref> "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative). | |||