User:CPO675/Sandbox 1: Difference between revisions

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Some modern Muslims have tried to reconcile the relevant verses with natural phenomena, including estuaries meeting the sea, and different seas having different salt levels. However critics do not believe the verses accurately describe this, and actually conflicts with the description as will be stated in the article. When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them.   
Some modern Muslims have tried to reconcile the relevant verses with natural phenomena, including estuaries meeting the sea, and different seas having different salt levels. However critics do not believe the verses accurately describe this, and actually conflicts with the description as will be stated in the article. When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them.   
=== The Qur'an ===
=== The Qur'an ===
There is a consistent theme of 'the two seas' ("al-baḥrayn, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), with the exact term being used 5 times in the Quran.   
There is a consistent theme of 'the two seas' ("al-baḥrayni, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), with the exact term being used 5 times in the Quran.   


We are told that there are two seas ("al-baḥrayn, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will ''never'' be passed.  
We are told that there are two seas ("al-baḥrayni, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will ''never'' be passed.  
{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}}Q55:22 quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching<ref>[https://ocean.si.edu/ocean-life/invertebrates/corals-and-coral-reefs ''Corals and Coral Reefs''] - Smithsonian Institution website</ref>.{{Quote|{{Quran|55|19-22}}|He released the two seas, meeting [side by side]; Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses. So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? From both of them emerge pearl and coral.}}And again in Q35:12 we are told the two seas with one being freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter). But from both come fresh meat (presumably fish) and ornaments to wear come from both (presumably coral and pearl as mentioned above in verse Q 55:22).
{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}}Q55:22 quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching<ref>[https://ocean.si.edu/ocean-life/invertebrates/corals-and-coral-reefs ''Corals and Coral Reefs''] - Smithsonian Institution website</ref>.{{Quote|{{Quran|55|19-22}}|He released the two seas, meeting [side by side]; Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses. So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? From both of them emerge pearl and coral.}}And again in Q35:12 we are told the two seas with one being freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter). But from both come fresh meat (presumably fish) and ornaments to wear come from both (presumably coral and pearl as mentioned above in verse Q 55:22).


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===== Problems with general accuracy =====
===== Problems with general accuracy =====
We are told that there are specifically '''the''' '''two seas (al-baḥrayn).'''  
We are told that there are specifically '''the''' '''two seas (al-baḥrayni).'''  


* This uses the definite particle ''''al'''<nowiki/>' for 'the' for a specific two seas, not general.
* This uses the definite particle ''''al'''<nowiki/>' for 'the' for a specific two seas, not general.
* '''<nowiki/>'baḥr'''' for large body of water/sea.
* '''<nowiki/>'baḥr'''' for large body of water/sea.
* the dual s'''<nowiki/>'''uffi<nowiki/>x/ending in '''<nowiki/>'ayn'''' means there are two of them, as apposed to singular or plural (3 or more).
* the dual s'''<nowiki/>'''uffi<nowiki/>x/ending in '''<nowiki/>'ayni'''' means there are two of them, as apposed to singular or plural (3 or more).


# Yet this happens in many places (there are over 1,200 documented estuaries,<ref>''[https://www.seaaroundus.org/about-estuaries-database/#:~:text=Specifically%2C%20this%20database%2C%20the%20first,and%20territories%20(Alder%202003). About Estuary Database].'' Sea Around Us. Jacqueline Alder. Citing: ''Alder J (2003) Putting the Coast in the Sea Around Us Project. The Sea Around Us Newsletter No. 15:1-2.''
# Yet this happens in many places (there are over 1,200 documented estuaries,<ref>''[https://www.seaaroundus.org/about-estuaries-database/#:~:text=Specifically%2C%20this%20database%2C%20the%20first,and%20territories%20(Alder%202003). About Estuary Database].'' Sea Around Us. Jacqueline Alder. Citing: ''Alder J (2003) Putting the Coast in the Sea Around Us Project. The Sea Around Us Newsletter No. 15:1-2.''
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The full article from Tommaso, which is recommended to read to understand the context, can be read in the link on JSTOR for free by making an account, which provides a full overview.
The full article from Tommaso, which is recommended to read to understand the context, can be read in the link on JSTOR for free by making an account, which provides a full overview.


The Quran states that Moses is able to reach “the junction of the two seas” (majmaʿ al-baḥrayn), where he meets the Servant of God. It states that he is able to reach it after hearing from his young attendant about the fish that they were carrying with them escaping. This is twice referred to, in Q18:61 and v63. In both cases the dynamic is described by exactly the same phrase, with v63 ending in ʿajaban, which is commonly translated as “wondrously” or “in a marvellous way,” and 'saraban', which has caused problems and disagreements among Muslim commentators:   
The Quran states that Moses is able to reach “the junction of the two seas” (majmaʿ al-baḥrayni), where he meets the Servant of God. It states that he is able to reach it after hearing from his young attendant about the fish that they were carrying with them escaping. This is twice referred to, in Q18:61 and v63. In both cases the dynamic is described by exactly the same phrase, with v63 ending in ʿajaban, which is commonly translated as “wondrously” or “in a marvellous way,” and 'saraban', which has caused problems and disagreements among Muslim commentators:   


{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 | title=Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. Tommaso Tesei. American Oriental Society. Vol. 135, No. 1 (January-March 2015), pp. 19-32}}|...the root s-r-b is found in three other Quranic passages—sarāb (“mirage”) in 24:39 and 78:20, and sārib (“to go forth or away”) in 13:10—sarab is a Quranic hapax legomenon, that is, it appears only once. One way to understand saraban is to read it as the accusative of sarab, which means “tunnel” or “subterranean excavation.” Then the phrase in v. 61 can be translated as either “and it took its way in the sea by way of a subterranean excavation” or “and it took its way: a subterranean excavation in the sea,” depending on whether saraban is considered an accusative of circumstance (ḥāl) or a second direct object (the irst being sabīlahu) of the verb ittakhadha.}}
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 | title=Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. Tommaso Tesei. American Oriental Society. Vol. 135, No. 1 (January-March 2015), pp. 19-32}}|...the root s-r-b is found in three other Quranic passages—sarāb (“mirage”) in 24:39 and 78:20, and sārib (“to go forth or away”) in 13:10—sarab is a Quranic hapax legomenon, that is, it appears only once. One way to understand saraban is to read it as the accusative of sarab, which means “tunnel” or “subterranean excavation.” Then the phrase in v. 61 can be translated as either “and it took its way in the sea by way of a subterranean excavation” or “and it took its way: a subterranean excavation in the sea,” depending on whether saraban is considered an accusative of circumstance (ḥāl) or a second direct object (the irst being sabīlahu) of the verb ittakhadha.}}
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