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→Antiquity interpretation: @lightyears - I hope you had a great holiday! I've created a page on the cosmic oceans and Islam - covering the alleged 'scientific miracle' of the two seas and expanding upon the historical context. Please let me know what you think :)
(→Antiquity interpretation: @lightyears - I hope you had a great holiday! I've created a page on the cosmic oceans and Islam - covering the alleged 'scientific miracle' of the two seas and expanding upon the historical context. Please let me know what you think :)) |
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We are told that there are two seas ("al-baḥrayni, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will ''never'' be passed. | We are told that there are two seas ("al-baḥrayni, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will ''never'' be passed. | ||
{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}}Q55:22 quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching<ref>[https://ocean.si.edu/ocean-life/invertebrates/corals-and-coral-reefs ''Corals and Coral Reefs''] - Smithsonian Institution website</ref> | {{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}}Q55:22 quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching.<ref>[https://ocean.si.edu/ocean-life/invertebrates/corals-and-coral-reefs ''Corals and Coral Reefs''] - Smithsonian Institution website</ref>{{Quote|{{Quran|55|19-22}}|He released the two seas, meeting [side by side]; Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses. So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? From both of them emerge pearl and coral.}}And again in Q35:12 we are told the two seas with one being freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter). But from both come fresh meat (presumably fish) and ornaments to wear come from both (presumably coral and pearl as mentioned above in verse Q 55:22). | ||
{{Quote|{{Quran|35|12}}|And the two seas are not alike: this, fresh, sweet, good to drink, this (other) bitter, salt. And from them both ye eat fresh meat and derive the ornament that ye wear. And thou seest the ship cleaving them with its prow that ye may seek of His bounty, and that haply ye may give thanks.}} | {{Quote|{{Quran|35|12}}|And the two seas are not alike: this, fresh, sweet, good to drink, this (other) bitter, salt. And from them both ye eat fresh meat and derive the ornament that ye wear. And thou seest the ship cleaving them with its prow that ye may seek of His bounty, and that haply ye may give thanks.}} | ||
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This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation).}} | This information has been discovered only recently, using advanced equipment to measure temperature, salinity, density, oxygen dissolubility, etc. The human eye cannot see the difference between the two seas that meet, rather the two seas appear to us as one homogeneous sea. Likewise, the human eye cannot see the division of water in estuaries into the three kinds: fresh water, salt water, and the partition (zone of separation).}} | ||
''Note that in the above referenced claim in the book (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman), they have added the words “Zone of Separation” and “The partition" onto Figure 4 (saying “with slight enhancement”), which the book itself does not have - clearly to link the word 'partition' as translated into English by several | ''Note that in the above referenced claim in the book (Introductory Oceanography, Thurman), they have added the words “Zone of Separation” and “The partition" onto Figure 4 (saying “with slight enhancement”), which the book itself does not have - clearly to link the word 'partition' (as translated into English by several official translators of the Quran) with the scientific book.'' | ||
==== Issues with this interpretation ==== | ==== Issues with this interpretation ==== | ||
===== Problems with miracle claim ===== | ===== Problems with miracle claim ===== | ||
Critics point to issue's with inserting this is a scientific miracle (and even scientifically accurate): | Critics point to issue's with inserting this is a scientific miracle (and even scientifically accurate): | ||
# Firstly as with all claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clear<nowiki/>ly described a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into typical categories | # Firstly as with all claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clear<nowiki/>ly described a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into several typical categories used for these claims such as selective literalism, de-historicization and pseudo-corelation (''see [[Scientific Miracles in the Quran]]''), taking advantage of ambiguity in language to fit a modern reading.. | ||
# The idea of the density of salt water being more than freshwater, separating the two was already known at least by the time of Aristotle ''(382 BC to 322 BC)''; ''“The drink''<nowiki/>''able, sweet water,'' ''l of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.”'''''<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref> ''' | # The idea of the density of salt water being more than freshwater, separating the two was already known at least by the time of Aristotle ''(382 BC to 322 BC)''; ''“The drink''<nowiki/>''able, sweet water,'' ''l of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.”'''''<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref> ''' | ||
# This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sa<nowiki/>iling nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as | # This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sa<nowiki/>iling nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as humans have sailed since ancient times,<ref>''[https://www.bu.edu/archaeology/files/2016/05/Ancient-mariners-may-have-set-sail-130000-years-ago-_-Register-_-The-Times-The-Sunday-Times.pdf Ancient mariners may have set sail 130,000 years ago].'' ARCHAEOLOGY. The Times. Norman Hammond. 2016. Boston University Archive</ref> and the colours are often different (as seen in the image on this page), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier placed by God between the two waters. | ||
# This description also | # This description also seems to imply there is no mixing between them at all, and could just as easily be written by someone believing that someone incorrectly believin<nowiki/>g this. | ||
A deeper analysis can be found on the now defunct and archived former Wikiislam website' page on scientific miracles ''[https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran].'' | A deeper analysis can be found on the now defunct and archived former Wikiislam website' page on scientific miracles ''[https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran].'' | ||
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* This uses the definite particle ''''al'''<nowiki/>' for 'the' for a specific two seas, not general. | * This uses the definite particle ''''al'''<nowiki/>' for 'the' for a specific two seas, not general. | ||
* '''<nowiki/>'baḥr'''' for large body of water/sea. | * '''<nowiki/>'baḥr'''' for large body of water/sea. | ||
* the dual s'''<nowiki/>'''uffi<nowiki/>x/ending in '''<nowiki/>'ayni'''' means there are two of them, as apposed to singular or plural (3 or more). | * the dual s'''<nowiki/>'''uffi<nowiki/>x/ending in '''<nowiki/>'ayni'''' means there are two of them, as apposed to singular or plural (3 or more in Arabic). | ||
# Yet this happens in many places (there are over 1,200 documented estuaries,<ref>''[https://www.seaaroundus.org/about-estuaries-database/#:~:text=Specifically%2C%20this%20database%2C%20the%20first,and%20territories%20(Alder%202003). About Estuary Database].'' Sea Around Us. Jacqueline Alder. Citing: ''Alder J (2003) Putting the Coast in the Sea Around Us Project. The Sea Around Us Newsletter No. 15:1-2.'' | # Yet this happens in many places (there are over 1,200 documented estuaries,<ref>''[https://www.seaaroundus.org/about-estuaries-database/#:~:text=Specifically%2C%20this%20database%2C%20the%20first,and%20territories%20(Alder%202003). About Estuary Database].'' Sea Around Us. Jacqueline Alder. Citing: ''Alder J (2003) Putting the Coast in the Sea Around Us Project. The Sea Around Us Newsletter No. 15:1-2.'' | ||
</ref> i.e. more than two) across the world - nowhere does the language suggest this is the case, as to match this Qur'an verse it must be referring to a single specific but unnamed estuary. There are many far better ways to phrase this if it meant this phenomena. | </ref> i.e. more than two) across the world - nowhere does the language suggest this is the case, as to match this Qur'an verse it must be referring to a single specific but unnamed estuary. There are many far better ways to phrase this if it meant this natural and general phenomena. | ||
# There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. Salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them [https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html here] and on [https://www.coastalwiki.org/wiki/Salt_wedge_estuaries CostalWiki] for accessible science f<nowiki/>or the general reader), however despite what it may look like on the surface ''they all mix to varying degrees'' - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they | # There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. Salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them [https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html here] and on [https://www.coastalwiki.org/wiki/Salt_wedge_estuaries CostalWiki] for accessible science f<nowiki/>or the general reader), however despite what it may look like on the surface ''they all mix to varying degrees'' - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they are forbidden to pass. | ||
# It does not use the word specifically for river (نھر "Nahar" - a word also used elsewhere in the Qur'an to describe a river) and sea, which would have been an accurate<nowiki/> way to describe it. | # It does not use the word specifically for river (نھر "Nahar" - a word also used elsewhere in the Qur'an to describe a river) and sea, which would have been an accurate<nowiki/> way to describe it. | ||
# If the mixing zones isn't part of either 'sea' being mentioned but a 'barrier', then there are arguably<nowiki/> 3 bodies of water in this, and the language could reflect the m<nowiki/>ixing zone by stating that one of them is made of both sweet and salty water (brackish water<ref>[https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est01_whatis.html#:~:text=The%20mixture%20of%20seawater%20and,%2C%20weather%2C%20or%20other%20factors. ''What is an Estuary?''] National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration</ref>). This also would separate it from th<nowiki/>e other specific seas being referred to as we will discuss in the next section. | # If the mixing zones isn't part of either 'sea' being mentioned but a 'barrier', then there are arguably<nowiki/> 3 bodies of water in this, and the language could reflect the m<nowiki/>ixing zone by stating that one of them is made of both sweet and salty water (brackish water<ref>[https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est01_whatis.html#:~:text=The%20mixture%20of%20seawater%20and,%2C%20weather%2C%20or%20other%20factors. ''What is an Estuary?''] National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration</ref>). This also would separate it from th<nowiki/>e other specific seas being referred to as we will discuss in the next section. | ||
==== '''Two actual seas''' ==== | ==== '''Two actual seas''' ==== | ||
Secondly, it states the verses not specifically mentioning sweet and salty waters are referring to different seas with different kinds of waters: | Secondly, it states the verses not specifically mentioning sweet and salty waters are referring to different seas with different kinds of waters (again click the link to see the images): | ||
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density. For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water. When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometres into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics. The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth <b>(see figure 13). | {{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density. For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water. When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometres into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics. The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth <b>(see figure 13). | ||
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There is another interpretation for this verse which critics argue is the only one to accurately fit this verse on a literal reading, which is discussed below. This fits a prevalent antiquity (and pre-antiquity) view that was present across the region, and also held in biblical cosmology and later Christian/Jewish exegesis at the time of Mohammad, that this refers to a somewhat magical cosmic ocean surrounding the Earth. | There is another interpretation for this verse which critics argue is the only one to accurately fit this verse on a literal reading, which is discussed below. This fits a prevalent antiquity (and pre-antiquity) view that was present across the region, and also held in biblical cosmology and later Christian/Jewish exegesis at the time of Mohammad, that this refers to a somewhat magical cosmic ocean surrounding the Earth. | ||
This likely originates from ancient Mesopotamian myths, such as the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14</ref> Wensinck explains,<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17</ref> "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative). Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, critics argue that the verse in question is scientifically wrong. | This likely originates from ancient Mesopotamian myths, such as the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14</ref> Wensinck explains,<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17</ref> "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". | ||
Similarly in Greek mythology, the world was surrounded by Oceanus, the world-ocean of classical antiquity. Oceanus was personified as the god Titan, whose consort was the aquatic sea goddess Tethys. It was also thought that rainfall was due a third ocean above the "Firmament of the Sky" (a vast reservoir above the firmament of the sky is also described in the Genesis creation narrative). Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, critics argue that the verse in question is scientifically wrong. | |||
The antiquity view is well summarised in Tommaso Tesei's 2015 article '''[https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context]''<nowiki/>', examining the Qur'ans verse on Moses meeting a servant at the meeting of the two seas, which he claims is influenced by a story of Alexander the Great (''see [[Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance]]''), which also features in this Surah. The main discussion is on verses: | The antiquity view is well summarised in Tommaso Tesei's 2015 article '''[https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context]''<nowiki/>', examining the Qur'ans verse on Moses meeting a servant at the meeting of the two seas, which he claims is influenced by a story of Alexander the Great (''see [[Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance]]''), which also features in this Surah. The main discussion is on verses: | ||
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The full article from Tommaso, which is recommended to read to understand the context, can be read in the link on JSTOR for free by making an account, which provides a full overview. | The full article from Tommaso, which is recommended to read to understand the context, can be read in the link on JSTOR for free by making an account, which provides a full overview. | ||
The Quran states that Moses is able to reach “the junction of the two seas” (majmaʿ al-baḥrayni), where he meets | The Quran states that Moses is able to reach “the junction of the two seas” (majmaʿ al-baḥrayni), where he meets a Servant of God. It states that he is able to reach it after hearing from his young attendant about the fish that they were carrying with them escaping. This is twice referred to, in Q18:61 and v63. In both cases the dynamic is described by exactly the same phrase, with v63 ending in ʿajaban, which is commonly translated as “wondrously” or “in a marvellous way,” and 'saraban', which has caused problems and disagreements among Muslim commentators: | ||
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 | title=Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. Tommaso Tesei. American Oriental Society. Vol. 135, No. 1 (January-March 2015), pp. 19-32}}|...the root s-r-b is found in three other Quranic passages—sarāb (“mirage”) in 24:39 and 78:20, and sārib (“to go forth or away”) in 13:10—sarab is a Quranic hapax legomenon, that is, it appears only once. One way to understand saraban is to read it as the accusative of sarab, which means “tunnel” or “subterranean excavation.” Then the phrase in v. 61 can be translated as either “and it took its way in the sea by way of a subterranean excavation” or “and it took its way: a subterranean excavation in the sea,” depending on whether saraban is considered an accusative of circumstance (ḥāl) or a second direct object (the irst being sabīlahu) of the verb ittakhadha.}} | {{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 | title=Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. Tommaso Tesei. American Oriental Society. Vol. 135, No. 1 (January-March 2015), pp. 19-32}}|...the root s-r-b is found in three other Quranic passages—sarāb (“mirage”) in 24:39 and 78:20, and sārib (“to go forth or away”) in 13:10—sarab is a Quranic hapax legomenon, that is, it appears only once. One way to understand saraban is to read it as the accusative of sarab, which means “tunnel” or “subterranean excavation.” Then the phrase in v. 61 can be translated as either “and it took its way in the sea by way of a subterranean excavation” or “and it took its way: a subterranean excavation in the sea,” depending on whether saraban is considered an accusative of circumstance (ḥāl) or a second direct object (the irst being sabīlahu) of the verb ittakhadha.}} | ||
The puzzled commentators have given rise to a number of conflicting interpretations by later Muslims starting from the mid-8th century exegesis, who often came up with miraculous stories to link the fish escaping with a tunnel (a summary is provided in the article). Tommaso states that such attempts to relate the path the fish takes in the sea to passage on land are direct consequences of the apparent discordance between the meaning of the word sarab, “subterranean passage,” and the place where it is said to be found: the sea. It seems the later commentators did not have the full story it arose from. With the story matching a common motif of the water of life surrounding the Earth that could give life to the dead:{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 | title=Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. Tommaso Tesei. American Oriental Society. Vol. 135, No. 1 (January-March 2015), pp. 19-32}}|..starting with the word saraban which has puzzled commentators + fish regaining life: All we know is that the fish breaks loose near a rock at the junction of the two seas and that this event indicates to Moses that he has reached the goal of his journey. When examined in light of a legend concerning Alexander’s journey to the Land of the Blessed, during which he fails to bathe in the water of life, the episode acquires more sense, however. Specifically, the fish’s escape represents an allusion to the resurrection of a salt fish after Alexander’s cook washes it in the water of life. Muslim exegetes introduced some elements of this legend in their explanation of the narrative told in the Quran. In fact, the fish’s escape episode is usually related to the motif of the water of life. Western scholars, too, almost unanimously consider this story of Alexander to be behind the Quranic account. The motif of the source of life reported in the legend concerning Alexander should certainly be understood in relation to the life-giving characteristics that Near Easterners attributed to the sweet waters of the rivers...}}This also explains why the fish then takes to the sea in a 'marvellous' way: | The puzzled commentators have given rise to a number of conflicting interpretations by later Muslims starting from the mid-8th century exegesis, who often came up with miraculous/magical stories to link the fish escaping with a tunnel (a summary is provided in the article). Tommaso states that such attempts to relate the path the fish takes in the sea to passage on land are direct consequences of the apparent discordance between the meaning of the word sarab, “subterranean passage,” and the place where it is said to be found: the sea. It seems the later commentators did not have the full story it arose from. With the story matching a common motif of the water of life surrounding the Earth that could give life to the dead:{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 | title=Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. Tommaso Tesei. American Oriental Society. Vol. 135, No. 1 (January-March 2015), pp. 19-32}}|..starting with the word saraban which has puzzled commentators + fish regaining life: All we know is that the fish breaks loose near a rock at the junction of the two seas and that this event indicates to Moses that he has reached the goal of his journey. When examined in light of a legend concerning Alexander’s journey to the Land of the Blessed, during which he fails to bathe in the water of life, the episode acquires more sense, however. Specifically, the fish’s escape represents an allusion to the resurrection of a salt fish after Alexander’s cook washes it in the water of life. Muslim exegetes introduced some elements of this legend in their explanation of the narrative told in the Quran. In fact, the fish’s escape episode is usually related to the motif of the water of life. Western scholars, too, almost unanimously consider this story of Alexander to be behind the Quranic account. The motif of the source of life reported in the legend concerning Alexander should certainly be understood in relation to the life-giving characteristics that Near Easterners attributed to the sweet waters of the rivers...}}Islamic scholar Gabriel Said Reynolds also notes this 'junction between two seas' (and other verses mentioning the two seas) as likely meaning the waters of the heaven. He also provides a translation of the relevant sections from the Alexander Song in his 2018 book ''"The Quran and Bible: Text and Commentary",''<ref>[https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300181326/the-quran-and-the-bible/ T''he Quran and Bible:Text and Commentary''], New Haven: Yale University Press, 2018. Gabriel Said Reynolds.</ref> which seems to have influenced the story (''again see [[Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance]]''): | ||
{{Quote|Gabriel Said Reynolds, "The Quran and Bible:Text and Commentary", New Haven: Yale University Press, 2018 pp. 464-465|The Macedonian king, the son of Philip spoke: / “I have determined to follow a great quest to reach the lands, / even the furthest lands, / to reach the seas, and the coasts, and the borders as they are; / Above all to enter and to see the land of darkness / if it is truly as I heard it is.” | |||
(Song of Alexander, recension 1, p. 26, ll. 33–38) | |||
Then [Alexander’s cook] came to the spring, which contained the lifegiving water / he came close to it, in order to wash the fish in water, but it came alive and escaped; The poor man was afraid that the king would blame him / that he give back the [value of the] fish, which had come to life and which he did not stop. So he got down into the water, in order to catch it, but was unable / then he climbed out from there in order to tell the king that he had found [the spring] He called, but no one heard him, and so he went to a mountain from where they heard him / the king was glad when he heard about the spring. The king turned around in order to bathe [in the spring] as he had sought to do / and they went from the mountain in the middle of darkness, but they could not reach it. | |||
(Song of Alexander, recension 1, pp. 48–50, ll. 182–92)}} | |||
This also explains why the fish then takes to the sea in a 'marvellous' way: | |||
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 | title=Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. Tommaso Tesei. American Oriental Society. Vol. 135, No. 1 (January-March 2015), pp. 19-32}}|When at v. 63 the Quran states that the fish “took its way in the sea in a marvellous way,” it evidently refers to its wondrously being revived upon contact with the miraculous water. In fact, the enigmatic episode acquires sense only if read in light of the dynamic described in the legend of the water of life, and the extreme vagueness with which the Quran describes the episode suggests that its audience was expected to be acquainted with the Alexander tale...}} | {{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 | title=Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. Tommaso Tesei. American Oriental Society. Vol. 135, No. 1 (January-March 2015), pp. 19-32}}|When at v. 63 the Quran states that the fish “took its way in the sea in a marvellous way,” it evidently refers to its wondrously being revived upon contact with the miraculous water. In fact, the enigmatic episode acquires sense only if read in light of the dynamic described in the legend of the water of life, and the extreme vagueness with which the Quran describes the episode suggests that its audience was expected to be acquainted with the Alexander tale...}} | ||
Similar to other religious near-East sources: | Similar to other religious near-East sources: | ||
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This story continues where Moses goes with a 'servant of God' at the junction of the two seas, who is unnamed in the Qur'an but called 'Al-Khidr' in the Hadith. This man has extremely accurate foreknowledge of both future events and human nature ([[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Predestination|predestination]]), so he carries out seemingly strange immoral tasks and tells Moses to be patient and not ask him about them; these are making a hole in a boat to sink it, killing a young child, and fixing a wall for free for a town that refused them hospitality. | This story continues where Moses goes with a 'servant of God' at the junction of the two seas, who is unnamed in the Qur'an but called 'Al-Khidr' in the Hadith. This man has extremely accurate foreknowledge of both future events and human nature ([[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Predestination|predestination]]), so he carries out seemingly strange immoral tasks and tells Moses to be patient and not ask him about them; these are making a hole in a boat to sink it, killing a young child, and fixing a wall for free for a town that refused them hospitality. | ||
However Moses | However Moses cannot help but ask why they are doing them, so after three events Al-Khidr parts ways with him and tells him why he committed the acts; he made a hole in the boat as it was about to be stolen by a king if they departed at that moment, the child was killed as he would become a disbeliever, hurting his devout parents - so God will replace him with a 'purer' one, and the as for fixing the wall, he built it because it is covering a hidden treasure and two orphan boys will find this later. | ||
{{Quote|{{Quran|18|65-82}}|18:66 Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?” | {{Quote|{{Quran|18|65-82}}|18:66 Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?” | ||
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This verse is expanded upon in a sahih/authentic hadith: {{Bukhari|4|55|613}} | This verse is expanded upon in a sahih/authentic hadith: {{Bukhari|4|55|613}} | ||
We can see that the servants knowledge of events to come is so great he is able to teach a prophet as important as Moses, and even become annoyed with him and leave him for questioning him. This kind of knowledge is usually only reserved for God, which fits someone coming from a special sea | We can see that the servants knowledge of events to come is so great he is able to teach a prophet as important as Moses, and even become annoyed with him and leave him for questioning him. This kind of knowledge is usually only reserved for God, which although not a direct piece of evidence, fits someone coming from a special sea in the sense they are so supernatural and unlike any other character in the Quran. The verses talking about the two seas also usually appear after important creation events: {{Quran|55|22}} is mentioned just after creating humans and jinn, {{Quran|35|12}} following creation of humans from clay, and {{Quran|27|61}} - a verse before mentions creating the heavens and the Earth; suggesting this is an important part of creation, which two specific but essentially random (as are never identified) seas are not as fitting. | ||
=== Islamic Views - Hadith and Qur'an === | === Islamic Views - Hadith and Qur'an === | ||
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From this Quran verse we see the God's throne was on 'the waters' during creation: | From this Quran verse we see the God's throne was on 'the waters' during creation: | ||
{{Quote|{{Quran|11|7}}|It is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days—and His Throne was [then] upon the waters—that He may test you [to see] which of you is best in conduct. Yet if you say, ‘You will indeed be raised up after death,’ the faithless will surely say, ‘This is nothing but plain magic.’}}As well as a hadith in Sunan Ibn Majah's collection, which although is rated 'Da'if/weak' (so unlikely to have come directly from Muhammad), show's early Muslim understanding of the verses as a cosmic sea in the sky, above the seventh heaven:{{Quote|{{Ibn Majah||1|1|193}}|"I was in Batha with a group of people, among them whom was the Messenger of Allah. A cloud passed over him, and he looked at it and said: 'What do you call this?' They said: 'Sahab (a cloud).' He said: 'And Muzn (rain cloud).' They said: 'And Muzn.' He said: 'And 'Anan (clouds).' Abu Bakr said: "They said: 'And 'Anan.'" He said: 'How much (distance) do you think there is between you and the heavens?' They said: 'We do not know.' He said: 'Between you and it is seventy-one, or seventy-two, or seventy-three years, and there is a similar distance between it and the heaven above it (and so on)' until he counted seven heavens. <b>'Then above the seventh heaven there is a sea, between whose top and bottom is a distance like that between one heaven and another.</b> Then above that there are eight (angels in the form of) mountain goats..."}} | {{Quote|{{Quran|11|7}}|It is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days—and His Throne was [then] upon the waters—that He may test you [to see] which of you is best in conduct. Yet if you say, ‘You will indeed be raised up after death,’ the faithless will surely say, ‘This is nothing but plain magic.’}}Which were there before the universe was created (this hadith is rated Hasan/Good by Darussalam): | ||
{{Quote|{{Al Tirmidhi||5|44|3109}}|Narrated Waki' bin Hudus: from his uncle Abu Razin who said: "I said: 'O Messenger of Allah! Where was our Lord before He created His creation?' He said: 'He was (above) the clouds - no air was under him, no air was above him, and He created His Throne upon the water.'"}} | |||
As well as a hadith in Sunan Ibn Majah's collection, which although is rated 'Da'if/weak' (so unlikely to have come directly from Muhammad), show's early Muslim understanding of the verses as a cosmic sea in the sky, above the seventh heaven:{{Quote|{{Ibn Majah||1|1|193}}|"I was in Batha with a group of people, among them whom was the Messenger of Allah. A cloud passed over him, and he looked at it and said: 'What do you call this?' They said: 'Sahab (a cloud).' He said: 'And Muzn (rain cloud).' They said: 'And Muzn.' He said: 'And 'Anan (clouds).' Abu Bakr said: "They said: 'And 'Anan.'" He said: 'How much (distance) do you think there is between you and the heavens?' They said: 'We do not know.' He said: 'Between you and it is seventy-one, or seventy-two, or seventy-three years, and there is a similar distance between it and the heaven above it (and so on)' until he counted seven heavens. <b>'Then above the seventh heaven there is a sea, between whose top and bottom is a distance like that between one heaven and another.</b> Then above that there are eight (angels in the form of) mountain goats..."}} | |||
=== '''Islamic Commentaries''' === | === '''Islamic Commentaries''' === | ||