User talk:Lehrasap: Difference between revisions

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==Did Quran tell universe is steadily expanding?==
==Re: new page proposal==


This article analyses the claim that Quran told that universe has been constantly expanding, and it is [[Islam and Science|scientifically]] accurate, and thus it is is Quranic miracle.
This is a new article which I was unable to find at wikiislam.
Since I don't have the right to create new Pages, therefore I had to publish this new article at my talk page (which luckily I am able to edit).  


==Apologetic Claim==
Therefore, I request you to please create a new page for this article, so that I could transfer it there. Thanks.
Apologists present the following verse
{{Quote|[https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/51/47/default.htm Quran 51:47]|وَالسَّمَاءَ بَنَيْنَاهَا بِأَيْدٍ وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُون


'''Muhammad Assad:''' AND IT IS We who have built the universe with [Our creative] power; ''and, verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it''.
:Hey Kamran! Sorry again that no one got back to you sooner on this, someone certainly should have (I was myself traveling and unable to access the wiki). Will look to see editor's requests aren't neglected in this manner going forward. Three things regarding your page proposal:


'''Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri:''' And We built the heavenly universe with great might. ''And surely, We are expanding (this universe) more and more''.
:1) I will discuss with other admins whether this topic is large enough to merit its own wiki page.


'''The Clear Quran, Dr. Mustafa Khattab:''' We built the universe with ˹great˺ might, ''and We are certainly expanding ˹it˺''.
:2) personally, I don't think this topic is vast or complicated enough to merit its own page, but I do think it is an important topic (i.e. it appears that the quran actually claims god is expanding universe and this is not just some crazy apologetic interpretation) and so should be included on the wiki. I think you should add this topic as a subsection to the [[Cosmology of the Quran]] page. Your write up looks pretty good here, although I might edit some language after you post it there (but everything on the wiki is always a work in progress, so no problem there). Just to note quickly, though: don't use fighting language - think of your role as documentary ("modern Islamic scholars say xyz" not "modern Muslim apologists have deliberately and deceptively altered the meaning of..." - see the difference?). As frustrating as it might be, its not our place to accuse Islamic scholars of being "deliberately deceptive apologists", etc. - they may be that, but that's for others to decide. The wiki's goal is just to communicate what they say. Using antagonistic language just alienates those on the fence about leaving Islam, which is our most important audience. Cool?


'''Safi Kaskas:''' We built the universe with power, ''and We are steadily expanding it''.}}
:3) thirdly, and this too is no fault of yours, but you should have been provided with a sandbox page to prep this write up. The talk page should only be used for talking. Sorry you were not provided this sooner. I'm going to move your draft to your personal sandbox, which I just made here: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Kamranlashari/Sandbox_1. You can also use these sandboxes I've made for you: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Kamranlashari/Sandbox_2 & https://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Kamranlashari/Sandbox_3.
[[Zakir Naik]] writes regarding this verse:
{{Quote|[http://web.archive.org/save/https://sunnahonline.com/ilm/quran/qms.pdf The Quran and Modern Science by Zakir Naik]|The Arabic word mûsi‘ûn (in verse 51:47) is correctly translated as ‘expanding it’, and it refers to the creation of the expanding vastness of the universe. Stephen Hawking, in his book, ‘A Brief History of Time’, says, “The discovery that the universe is expanding was one of the great intellectual revolutions of the
20th century.” The Qur’aan mentioned the expansion of the universe, before man even learnt to build a telescope!}}


==Criticism==
:Thanks for your patience and sorry for the delay getting back to you.
Critics point out that:


*This translation of verse 51:47 is not correct.
:[[User:IbnPinker|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker|talk]]) 20:24, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
*Only modern apologists started doing this translation, otherwise no earlier translator did this translation.
*And none of the Qur'an Mufassirin (i.e. Quran interpreters) of last fourteen centuries ever come to this conclusion from this verse.


===Correct translation of verse 51:47===
::Hey, it turns out the linking-to-someone's-page-to-notify-them doesn't work or something. Working with the admins to rectify this now, this was the reason why no one got back to you. Sorry again about the inconvenience. [[User:IbnPinker|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker|talk]]) 21:16, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
The dispute is only about the last two words of the verse 51:47 (i.e. وَإِنَّا لَمُوسِعُونَ wa-innā lamūsiʿūna''')'''


CorpusQuran website gives word by word grammar and translation of Quran. It writes<ref>[https://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=51&verse=47 Quran Corpus, verse 51:47]</ref>:
::There's a section on this miracle claim on the [[Scientific Miracles in the Quran]] page. That might be the best place for adding some extra points (the Cosmology page is more of an overview of academic work on the overall cosmology/cosmography rather than modern apologetics). There used to be a page dedicated to the big bang miracle claim (which involves two verses) with lots of detailed points, but it got deleted and now only exists on the archive (can be found by google), though the archive version was itself two years out of date and missing some subsequent improvements that were unfortunately lost when the live page was deleted.[[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 22:02, 22 August 2021 (UTC)


*وَإِنَّا (wa-innā) Translation: "and indeed, We (Allah)"
==Remarrying and Blasphemy==
*لَمُوسِعُونَ (lamūsiʿūna)  Translation: "(are) surely (its) Expanders".
Please check Discord for what I have said on these two articles--[[User:Asmith|Asmith]] ([[User talk:Asmith|talk]]) 12:01, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
 
Therefore, the correct translation of this verse should be:
 
<blockquote>(Quran 51:47) ''And the heaven We constructed with strength, and indeed, '''We (Allah) are [its] expander'''.''</blockquote>
 
The term “lamūsi‘ūn” in this verse is a "'''NOUN'''"  and not a "'''Verb'''", and it '''describes "God" and not the "heaven"''' (i.e. the term “lamūsi‘ūn” means "God is the Expander", and not "the Universe is Expanding").
 
The earlier Quran Translators did the correct translation:
 
{{Quote|[https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/51/47/default.htm Quran 51:47]|'''Yusuf Ali:''' With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: '''''for it is We Who create the vastness of space'''''.
 
'''Pickthal:''' We have built the heaven with might, and '''''We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof)'''''.
 
'''Shakir:''' And the heaven, We raised it high with power, '''''and most surely We are the makers of things ample'''''.
 
'''Word by Word Translation:''' And the heaven We constructed it with strength, '''''and indeed, We (are) surely (its) Expanders'''''.}}
 
===Wؒord "وسع''":'' Literal Meaning vs Figurative Meaning===
The root word of لَمُوسِعُونَ (lamūsiʿūna) is وسع . However in Quran, this word and it's derivatives have been used in the meanings of "'''Encompassing"'''.
 
Look at the following verses:
{{Quote|[http://quranx.com/6.80 Quran 6:80]|وَسِعَ رَبِّى كُلَّ شَىْءٍ عِلْمًا
 
'''Sahih Intl:''' My Lord encompasses all things in knowledge
 
'''Yusuf Ali:''' My Lord comprehendeth in His knowledge all things}}
Also see verses [https://quranx.com/7.89 7:89] and [https://quranx.com/20.98 20:98].
 
Also see verse 65:12, where directly the word of "'''احاط'''" (encompass) has been used instead of "wasi'a"
{{Quote|[http://quranx.com/65.12 Quran 65:12]|وَأَنَّ ٱللَّهَ قَدْ أَحَاطَ بِكُلِّ شَىْءٍ عِلْمًۢا
 
'''Sahih Intl:''' and that Allah has encompassed all things in knowledge.
 
'''Pickthall:'''and that Allah surroundeth all things in knowledge.}}
So, then verse 51.47 must be understood as follows: '''"And the heaven We built it with might and We lamūsi‘ūn (encompasses it)."'''
 
This verse confirms that the heaven is completely within and under God’s control. There is no reference whatsoever to expansion of the heaven. The term “''lamūsi‘ūn''” '''describes God not the heaven'''.
 
ٖThus few translator used this figurative translation:
{{Quote|[https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/51/47/default.htm Quran 51:47]|'''Farook Malik:''' We have built the heavens with Our hands, ''for We have the power to do so''.
 
'''Abdul Majid Daryabadi:'''  And the heaven! We have built it with might, ''and verily We are powerful''.
 
'''Maududi:''' And heaven – We made it with Our Own Power ''and We have the Power to do so''.}}
 
=== Next verse 51:48 also exposes this wrong translation ===
Critics also point out that exactly the same grammar has been used in the next verse 51:48.
{{Quote|[http://quranx.com/51.48 Quran 51:48]|'''Yousuf Ali:''' And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: ''How excellently We do spread out!''}}
 
In this verse, the word الْمَاهِدُونَ (spreader/smoother) has exactly the same grammar (Active Participle Form I) as the word لَمُوسِعُونَ (i.e. expander) in the previous verse. Therefore, according to the translation pattern of modern Islam apologists, then the translation of this verse should be:<blockquote>(Quran 51:48) We have spread out the earth; '''and We are still steadily spreading/smoothing it'''. </blockquote>
Since this is against the modern science, and earth is not steadily spreading, thus here modern Islam apologists did the correct translation:
{{Quote|[https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/51/48/ Quran 51:48]|'''Asad:''' And the earth have We spread out wide - and how well have We ordered it
 
'''The Clear Quran:''' As for the earth, We spread it out. How superbly did We smooth it out!
 
'''Safi Kaskas:''' And the earth We spread it out, How well We smoothed it out.}}
 
Therefore, this next verse 51:48 also proves that in the earlier verse 51:47, the term “lamūsi‘ūn” means "God is the Expander", and not "the Universe is Expanding".
 
=== Universe consists of "Space", while Quranic HEAVEN is a solid canopy which could not expand ===
Critics also point out that according to science, universe consists of space and galaxies are travelling away from each other in this space and thus it is considered as an expansion of the universe.
 
But according to the writer of Quran, : {{Quote|{{Quran|2|22}}| الذي جعل لكم الارض فراشا والسماء بناء وانزل من السماء ماء فاخرج به من الثمرات رزقا لكم فلا تجعلوا لله اندادا وانتم تعلمون </br>Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (the truth). }}The word translated as canopy is binaa or binaan ( بِنَاء ). This word means "building"<ref>بِنَاء binaa - [http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000298.pdf Lane's Lexicon] page 261</ref>. Here, the heavens are described as a multi-story building over the earth. There are seven layers or stories to this building called the heavens. The heavens are built on a foundation called "the earth". The tafsir of Ibn Kathir, among others, elaborates this<ref>[https://tafsir.app/2/22 Tafsirs 2:22]</ref>:{{quote |[http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid&#61;2&tid&#61;1494 Tafsir Ibn Kathir]| These Ayat indicate that Allah started creation by creating earth, then He made heaven into seven heavens. This is how building usually starts, with the lower floors first and then the top floors}}And according to Ahadith, prophets are residing upon these solid heavens along with their nations.
 
Thus, it is impossible for a solid canopy to expand.
 
== References: ==
{{reflist}}

Latest revision as of 12:02, 7 February 2022

Re: new page proposal

This is a new article which I was unable to find at wikiislam.

Since I don't have the right to create new Pages, therefore I had to publish this new article at my talk page (which luckily I am able to edit).

Therefore, I request you to please create a new page for this article, so that I could transfer it there. Thanks.

Hey Kamran! Sorry again that no one got back to you sooner on this, someone certainly should have (I was myself traveling and unable to access the wiki). Will look to see editor's requests aren't neglected in this manner going forward. Three things regarding your page proposal:
1) I will discuss with other admins whether this topic is large enough to merit its own wiki page.
2) personally, I don't think this topic is vast or complicated enough to merit its own page, but I do think it is an important topic (i.e. it appears that the quran actually claims god is expanding universe and this is not just some crazy apologetic interpretation) and so should be included on the wiki. I think you should add this topic as a subsection to the Cosmology of the Quran page. Your write up looks pretty good here, although I might edit some language after you post it there (but everything on the wiki is always a work in progress, so no problem there). Just to note quickly, though: don't use fighting language - think of your role as documentary ("modern Islamic scholars say xyz" not "modern Muslim apologists have deliberately and deceptively altered the meaning of..." - see the difference?). As frustrating as it might be, its not our place to accuse Islamic scholars of being "deliberately deceptive apologists", etc. - they may be that, but that's for others to decide. The wiki's goal is just to communicate what they say. Using antagonistic language just alienates those on the fence about leaving Islam, which is our most important audience. Cool?
3) thirdly, and this too is no fault of yours, but you should have been provided with a sandbox page to prep this write up. The talk page should only be used for talking. Sorry you were not provided this sooner. I'm going to move your draft to your personal sandbox, which I just made here: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Kamranlashari/Sandbox_1. You can also use these sandboxes I've made for you: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Kamranlashari/Sandbox_2 & https://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Kamranlashari/Sandbox_3.
Thanks for your patience and sorry for the delay getting back to you.
IbnPinker (talk) 20:24, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
Hey, it turns out the linking-to-someone's-page-to-notify-them doesn't work or something. Working with the admins to rectify this now, this was the reason why no one got back to you. Sorry again about the inconvenience. IbnPinker (talk) 21:16, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
There's a section on this miracle claim on the Scientific Miracles in the Quran page. That might be the best place for adding some extra points (the Cosmology page is more of an overview of academic work on the overall cosmology/cosmography rather than modern apologetics). There used to be a page dedicated to the big bang miracle claim (which involves two verses) with lots of detailed points, but it got deleted and now only exists on the archive (can be found by google), though the archive version was itself two years out of date and missing some subsequent improvements that were unfortunately lost when the live page was deleted.Lightyears (talk) 22:02, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Remarrying and Blasphemy

Please check Discord for what I have said on these two articles--Asmith (talk) 12:01, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

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