1,003
edits
User:CPO675/Sandbox 1: Difference between revisions
→Other Traditions
| Line 28: | Line 28: | ||
for example, ʿĪsa¯ “confirmed” the Tawra¯ h of Mūsa¯(Q5:46), and the Qurʾan | for example, ʿĪsa¯ “confirmed” the Tawra¯ h of Mūsa¯(Q5:46), and the Qurʾan | ||
confirms the book(s) sent by previous prophets (Q4:47), just as the Messenger has been doing in his turn.}} | confirms the book(s) sent by previous prophets (Q4:47), just as the Messenger has been doing in his turn.}} | ||
The large differences between the New Testament / Gospels (and by extension the Christian Jesus), and the [[Isa al-Masih (Jesus Christ)|Muslim Jesus,]] are clear to anyone who has read both the Qur'an and NT; with the Qur'an having it's own spin on him and taking many aspects from apocrypha considered inauthentic by NT scholars,<ref>Sanders, E.. ''The Historical Figure of Jesus (pp. 78-79)''. Penguin Books Ltd. Kindle Edition. | |||
..(Gnosticism was a world view that held everything material to be evil; the god who created the world was a bad god, and the creation was wicked. Gnostics who were also Christians held that the good God had sent Jesus to redeem people’s souls, not their bodies, and that Jesus was not a real human being. The Christians who objected to these views finally declared them heretical.) ''I share the general scholarly view that very, very little in the apocryphal gospels could conceivably go back to the time of Jesus. They are legendary and mythological. Of all the apocryphal material, only some of the sayings in the Gospel of Thomas are worth consideration.'' This does not mean that we can make a clean division: the historical four gospels versus the legendary apocryphal gospels. There are legendary traits in the four gospels in the New Testament, and there is also a certain amount of newly created material (as we saw just above)..</ref> and [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature|later Christian thought/writings]] | ..(Gnosticism was a world view that held everything material to be evil; the god who created the world was a bad god, and the creation was wicked. Gnostics who were also Christians held that the good God had sent Jesus to redeem people’s souls, not their bodies, and that Jesus was not a real human being. The Christians who objected to these views finally declared them heretical.) ''I share the general scholarly view that very, very little in the apocryphal gospels could conceivably go back to the time of Jesus. They are legendary and mythological. Of all the apocryphal material, only some of the sayings in the Gospel of Thomas are worth consideration.'' This does not mean that we can make a clean division: the historical four gospels versus the legendary apocryphal gospels. There are legendary traits in the four gospels in the New Testament, and there is also a certain amount of newly created material (as we saw just above)..</ref> and [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature|later Christian thought/writings]], and have lead to many Muslims arguing for biblical corruption based on textual and theological grounds [though textual don't affect most early & authentic traditions] in general, which is a disputed idea in traditional Islamic thought (cite - Reynolds article. See also: [[Corruption of Previous Scriptures]] & [[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Corruption of Previous Scriptures]]) | ||
Historians have searched for a summary of some of the most likely authentic traditions from Biblical historians (using historical-critical methods not Christian or Muslim theologians - more likely to be true and not taken from bias or proving or disproving Islam but historical context, widespread across sources, early - cite Allison explanation - Why - different to time and context, unlikely to be fabricated later by Christians, across all early sources etc.) are shown here as an example of the clashes. [Point: not arguing against Christian Jesus - but secular historians one] | |||
==== Examples ==== | ==== Examples ==== | ||
| Line 76: | Line 78: | ||
[ highlight those being spoken about in italics or bold] | [ highlight those being spoken about in italics or bold] | ||
Professor Allison (2009) notes that Jesus' banning divorce was an important teaching that <s>stood out</s> to early Christians, [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016%3A18&version=NIV Luke 16:18], [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%207%3A10-16&version=NIV 1 Corinthians 7:10-16], [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010%3A2-9&version=NIV Mark 10:2-9], in contrast to Judaism ([https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2024%3A1-4&version=NIV Deuteronomy 24:1-4]) and Islam e.g. Quran 2:228-232, Q65:1-7, (Q4:19 https://quranx.com/hadiths/4.19 & Q4:35), Q33:49 ) | |||
He notes that Jesus commanded loving and doing good to enemies in [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%3A38-48&version=NIV Matt. 5:38-48]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%206%3A27-36&version=NIV Luke 6:27-36], while the Qur'an generally advises treating other Muslims well, it specifically states not to be merciful to unbelievers Q48:29. [ For more examples of not being merciful to unbelievers, let alone 'enemies' see: '''[[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Non-Muslims|https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Non-Muslims]] & [[Kafir (Infidel)#Guidelines%20on%20how%20to%20deal%20with%20disbelievers|https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Kafir_(Infidel)#Guidelines_on_how_to_deal_with_disbelievers]] Quran 48:29 ]''' | He notes that Jesus commanded loving and doing good to enemies in [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%205%3A38-48&version=NIV Matt. 5:38-48]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%206%3A27-36&version=NIV Luke 6:27-36], while the Qur'an generally advises treating other Muslims well, it specifically states not to be merciful to unbelievers Q48:29. [ For more examples of not being merciful to unbelievers, let alone 'enemies' see: '''[[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Non-Muslims|https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Non-Muslims]] & [[Kafir (Infidel)#Guidelines%20on%20how%20to%20deal%20with%20disbelievers|https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Kafir_(Infidel)#Guidelines_on_how_to_deal_with_disbelievers]] Quran 48:29 ]''' | ||
• Jesus enjoined unlimited forgiveness: [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018%3A21-22&version=NIV Matt. 18:21-22]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2017%3A3-4&version=NIV Luke 17:3-4]. | • Jesus enjoined unlimited forgiveness: [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2018%3A21-22&version=NIV Matt. 18:21-22]; [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2017%3A3-4&version=NIV Luke 17:3-4]. However the Qur'an distinctly says there is no forgiveness for anyone committing shirk (ascribing partners to God) in {{Quran|4|48}} and {{Quran|4|116}}. | ||
He notes Jesus called some to a life without marriage: [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019%3A11-12&version=NIV Matt. 19:11-12], while the Qur'an promotes it as a virtue encouraging those to do so. | He notes Jesus called some to a life without marriage: [https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019%3A11-12&version=NIV Matt. 19:11-12], while the Qur'an promotes it as a virtue encouraging those to do so. | ||
| Line 104: | Line 106: | ||
{{Quote|Dale C. Allison Jr.. <i>The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus (Kindle Location 841-848).</i> Kindle Edition.|2=Working through the tradition in the way I suggest leads to a large number of conclusions. Jesus must have been an exorcist who interpreted his ministry in terms of Satan's downfall. He must have thought highly of John the Baptist. He must have repeatedly spoken of God as Father. <b>[Durie differences in metaphor and understanding of relationship from Hebrew to Arab society = markedly different]</b> He must have composed parables. He must have come into conflict with religious authorities. All of this may seem obvious, but the procedure is not trite, for it also issues in some controversial verdicts. As I have argued elsewhere, for example, ample, the quantity of conventional eschatological material in our primary sources almost necessitates that Jesus was an eschatological prophet.' The reconstruction of Robert Funk and the Jesus Seminar is for this reason alone problematic. Even more controversial is what my approach leads me to infer about Jesus' self-conception. Consider these Synoptic materials: | {{Quote|Dale C. Allison Jr.. <i>The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus (Kindle Location 841-848).</i> Kindle Edition.|2=Working through the tradition in the way I suggest leads to a large number of conclusions. Jesus must have been an exorcist who interpreted his ministry in terms of Satan's downfall. He must have thought highly of John the Baptist. He must have repeatedly spoken of God as Father. <b>[Durie differences in metaphor and understanding of relationship from Hebrew to Arab society = markedly different]</b> He must have composed parables. He must have come into conflict with religious authorities. All of this may seem obvious, but the procedure is not trite, for it also issues in some controversial verdicts. As I have argued elsewhere, for example, ample, the quantity of conventional eschatological material in our primary sources almost necessitates that Jesus was an eschatological prophet.' The reconstruction of Robert Funk and the Jesus Seminar is for this reason alone problematic. Even more controversial is what my approach leads me to infer about Jesus' self-conception. Consider these Synoptic materials: | ||
• Jesus said that the Son of man will return on the clouds of heaven and send angels to gather the elect from throughout the world: Mark 13:26-27; cf. 14:62; Matt. 10:23 (allusions to Daniel 7's depiction of the last judgment are clear). <b>[the son of man plays no part in Islam]</b>}} | • Jesus said that the Son of man will return on the clouds of heaven and send angels to gather the elect from throughout the world: Mark 13:26-27; cf. 14:62; Matt. 10:23 (allusions to Daniel 7's depiction of the last judgment are clear). <b>[the son of man plays no part in Islam]</b>}}Allison (2009) notes that Jesus must have repeatedly referred to God as 'father', a way also used by many ancient Jews to describe their relationship to god, also found in the old testament (cite) and Talmudic writings with paternal imagery. <ref>Knobnya, S.. (2011). ''God the Father in the Old Testament. European Journal of Theology.'' 20. 139-148. </ref><ref>[https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/fatherhood-of-god/ Fatherhood of God] | Sages & Scholars | Rabbi Louis Jacobs | My Jewish Learning</ref> | ||
===== Slave-master relationship ===== | ===== Slave-master relationship ===== | ||
However this father-son Hebrew metaphorical relationship Jesus used is distinctly abandoned, instead using other things (other metaphors) in Arab society to describe the relationship between humans and God, such as a slave-master relationship,<ref>Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. XX-XX) (pp. 107-110 Kindle Edition)''. 4.1.1. Shirk - Proprietary Partnership. Lexington Books. 2018.</ref> a Patron - Protege (needs explanation of what this is) <ref>Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. XX-XX) (pp. 110-111 Kindle Edition)''. 4.1.2. Shirk - Patron - Protege Relationships. Lexington Books. 2018.</ref>. with Muhammad having strongly condemned the idea that God could have offspring against the unscripted pagans (mushrikun) taking angels as daughters of god early on chronologically of the Qur'an's first recitations, then later against God having a son against Jesus being the son of God.<ref>Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. XX-XX) (pp. 112-113 Kindle Edition)''. 4.1.5 A Polemical Doctrine. Lexington Books. 2018.</ref> | |||
Slave analogy Dure Print edition pp108 - 110 summary:<ref name=":1">Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. 108-110) (pp. XX-XX Kindle Edition)''. 4.1.5 A Polemical Doctrine. Lexington Books. 2018.</ref> Before its theological use, the Arabic root ''sh-r-k'' referred to ordinary '''partnership or shared ownership'''. The Qurʾan draws on this everyday meaning to illustrate why associating partners with God is impossible. Using the metaphor of '''a master and a slave''', the Qurʾan argues that just as a slave with multiple masters suffers confusion and conflict, attributing partners to God creates an impossible and chaotic situation. This logic appears in verses such as Q39:29 and others that argue multiple gods would lead to conflict and the ruin of creation (Q23:91; Q21:22).<ref name=":1" /> | Slave analogy Dure Print edition pp108 - 110 summary:<ref name=":1">Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. 108-110) (pp. XX-XX Kindle Edition)''. 4.1.5 A Polemical Doctrine. Lexington Books. 2018.</ref> Before its theological use, the Arabic root ''sh-r-k'' referred to ordinary '''partnership or shared ownership'''. The Qurʾan draws on this everyday meaning to illustrate why associating partners with God is impossible. Using the metaphor of '''a master and a slave''', the Qurʾan argues that just as a slave with multiple masters suffers confusion and conflict, attributing partners to God creates an impossible and chaotic situation. This logic appears in verses such as Q39:29 and others that argue multiple gods would lead to conflict and the ruin of creation (Q23:91; Q21:22).<ref name=":1" /> | ||