WikiIslam:Discussions/Editor Discussions

Here see its second sentence. does it make enough of sense? some stray translator calls it "hiding pregnancy," but is it really something that can be hidden over time? especially in those old days? If it is unclear, it should go into some article.--Saggy (talk) 12:46, 20 March 2014 (PDT)

I think it sounds pretty clear. --Sahab (talk) 20:04, 20 March 2014 (PDT)

What does this mean? "Do not kill your children secretly, for the milk, with which a child is suckled while his mother is pregnant, overtakes the horseman and throws him from his horse."[1] Saggy (talk) 08:18, 2 April 2014 (PDT)

Why? --Sahab (talk) 08:22, 2 April 2014 (PDT)

I think he just wants to know what the hadith means. Strange hadith. I dont know myself. --Axius (talk | contribs) 09:56, 2 April 2014 (PDT)

Appears to be claiming fetuses drink their mother's milk in the womb. --Sahab (talk) 10:01, 2 April 2014 (PDT)

Whoa lol. Yea I think you're right. I dont know what that horseman thing means though. Funny. --Axius (talk | contribs) 10:11, 2 April 2014 (PDT)

Yeah, I dunno what the "horseman" refers to either. It's probably the killer. And the milk thing sounds silly but it's not out of the ordinary for Islamic literature where the moon and sun are considered sentient beings and food likewise "praise Allah" or warn Muhammad of poisoning. Although we have to be careful with such things because while the former is a scientific error, the latter is a miracle. --Sahab (talk) 12:22, 2 April 2014 (PDT)

To put it somewhere.Saggy (talk) 12:23, 2 April 2014 (PDT)

Scientific Errors in the Hadith? (lol. I'm assuming it can't be argued that fetuses suckle on their mother's milk). --Sahab (talk) 12:26, 2 April 2014 (PDT)

So I was thinking the apologist could argue (as they do) but that the child in this quote is a child outside which has been born already: "with which a child is suckled while his mother is pregnant". In any case, this hadith could be in a "Other Hadiths" sub-section or wherever (its up to you guys). --Axius (talk | contribs) 14:57, 2 April 2014 (PDT)

I'll fill in the details of every possible meaning. But if this is for the scientific error article, what title to give it? "Breast milk can overflow?"Saggy (talk) 12:23, 3 April 2014 (PDT)

Could be "Break milk is consumed by Fetus", etc.

But look what I found. I think this is interesting. I googled "greek science breast milk uterus" and I found this paper. Google "The History of the Knowledge of Reproductive Anatomy and Physiology " [2] and click on the link from www.lab.anhb.uwa.edu.au

ca 150 A.D. -- Galen – was a Greek Biologist and philosopher who practised medicine, was a surgeon to gladiators and a public demonstrator of anatomy.

He also believed women had two uteri ending in single neck. One of his theories was that if milk flows from the breasts of a pregnant woman, it is an indication that the foetus will be weak. His reasoning for this is; the breasts and uterus are joined by common vessels. The foetus inside the uterus is bathed in nutrients (milk), if this milk overflows to the breasts it is because the foetus is not strong enough to consume as much as it should be.

Galen is mentioned on our site in other places too. site search. Food for thought. I knew it could be connected to Greek science just like the Embryology/semen backbone stuff is copied from Greek science in Islamic texts. I would suggest the next steps as possibly finding more related hadiths and any Islamic scholar's comments on this hadith and then citing this paper to link them. There needs to be more study to see completely what the hadith means to say.

Then I added Galen to the search query greek science breast milk uterus galen. Click on the PDF "Exploring gender: Islamic Perspectives on Breastfeeding" for more info.

Galen says in another link [3] "so that if a nursing mother should become pregnant,", so it might be talking about a pregnant woman who is nursing another child. This is just more information. Saggy could you analyze this carefully or do more research before putting the hadith in to make sure we are not putting in any hadiths that can be explained. I have no additional input on this. --Axius (talk | contribs) 15:12, 3 April 2014 (PDT)

The minimum error is that milk overflows. Where is the baby or how many babies are there does not matter. I'll insert this and its better to see if somebody tries to refute or explain the rest of words later. Saggy (talk) 04:00, 4 April 2014 (PDT)

[4] "there can be only some leakage of milk", can qualify for "A Pregnant woman's milk can overflow". Technically "some leakage" is "overflow". --Axius (talk | contribs) 04:30, 4 April 2014 (PDT)

No, it throws a horseman! All i found was this denial-[5] and another where a guy will make 60 women pregnant and their kids will become horsemen of war[6] - it maybe related to our subject of child/horseman but it does not clarify the milk. neway I read some breastfeeding facts and wrote down.Saggy (talk) 04:36, 4 April 2014 (PDT)

Let me think- mother or somebody else may have planned to kill the foetus ( but i am not sure if this was possible). If it is killed what happens to the milk? overflow, at best. If she's pregnant and feeds a second child and this child is to be killed, again the milk may be excess. the horseman falling must be the exagerration and it is best to point that out. I checked more - only breastfeed woman leaks often. but pregnant plus breastfeeder can be sometimes low on milk supply.Saggy (talk) 04:51, 4 April 2014 (PDT)

Added ref for decreased milk. The ref template needs some fixes. i see it later, i've to go.Saggy (talk) 05:05, 4 April 2014 (PDT)

Ok, I think I understand now. The hadith says that it will always be the case that overflow happens for a pregnant breast feeding woman. I still dont get the logic behind the hadith "Dont kill your child because otherwise the milk wont overflow" ... ? Must be some background on the hadith as to whats going on. Yea I saw that link. I googled "overtakes the horseman and throws him from his horse" and saw a few more links. Here's another [7] which is about intercourse and other stuff.:

Imam Abu Sulaiman Al Khattabi explaining the hadith says, “The Prophet (pbuh) is indicating that when the husband has intercourse with his breastfeeding wife, which results in pregnancy, it reduces her milk, thus depriving the suckling child, as it is being nourished from that milk, hence weakening the suckling child”. (Ma’aalim Al Sunan of Imam Abu Sulaiman Al Khattabi)

and this quote (note the interpretation of horseman etc):

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: "…gheelah (pregnancy during the period of breastfeeding) overtakes the rider and throws him from the horse." (Reported by Abu Dawud, this means that the child who nurses from a pregnant mother will suffer from it in later life like a horseman who is thrown from his horse.)"

There may be additional information in the google link about the horseman phrase. --Axius (talk | contribs) 05:08, 4 April 2014 (PDT)

And after Googling that phrase ("this means ....") I found only two links, one of which was that forum and the other is this [8]. So I think this hadith may not be a good choice after addition after all but check all of this information and see for yourself. You can also get additional scientific error Hadiths from this page: Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Islamic_Silliness. You can copy the ones that can be shown as scientific errors. Its ok to have one hadith shown in multiple pages. But yes continue with your hadith scanning/search because we know there are more errors/things found in Hadith than Quran verses. --Axius (talk | contribs) 05:23, 4 April 2014 (PDT)

I searched for "Romans persians" and got this [9] Book 008, Number 3391 is what they seem to call gheelah. But gheelah does not appear linked to "kill children" nor to the fall from horse. Its tiring; verifying such claims. What analogy did they say: Child will suffer the same as a horseback fall? is it due to milk in any way? This fall-suffer analogy is strange, it seems like all those miracle claims derived from half sentences. The subject is clearly milk, not child. but they changed it to child to brush it away. So you have googled and thrown light(lol) on two separate parts: If the second half is an analogy, the first is not clear. If we understand or assume the first, the second is not clear. "Milk throws the horseman from the horse" looks the same as "sperm flows between backbone and ribs." By now, a whole article could be made on this mess if needed.Saggy (talk) 09:15, 4 April 2014 (PDT)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ (outdented)"This fall-suffer analogy is strange" - the apologist will quote Abu Dawaud and claim that its not referring to overflow but punishment later on. I would suggest to move on to something else as things are not as clear as we would like them to be (unless additional evidence can be found). The problem is the meaning of the hadith is not clear, and we cannot claim that horseman refers to overflow (without evidence that says so). --Axius (talk | contribs) 09:28, 4 April 2014 (PDT)

That is what I was trying to say - such an apologist cant show which word refers to what, satisfactorily. (is it "milk" that refers to punishment?) I had said the sperm thing on realising that the first guy who pointed out the sperm-flow error did not expect that apologists will give 10 different interpretations, half of them twisting the original words. They are all debunked. Same may happen here. We should take the hadith literally unless there is strong evidence for different meanings in it.Saggy (talk) 10:06, 4 April 2014 (PDT)

Agreed that it should be taken literally. Literally it just says "horseman taking over the horse". Anything else (overflow or punishment) needs a reference. I would suggest adding the hadith to some kind of "to do" page where hadiths of interest are listed so it can be looked at again when there's more information. If the hadith literally said something about over flow or punishment or lack of milk for the other baby etc, it would be another situation. --Axius (talk | contribs) 10:10, 4 April 2014 (PDT)

I think that hadith should not be added to the list. I do not get "A Pregnant woman's milk can overflow" from a literal reading. In the end, a literal reading is all that matters because anything else is an interpretation and can be argued against. Ultimately, this is just one odd hadith out of literally thousands of odd hadith, so I don't see any importance in this. --Sahab (talk) 00:28, 5 April 2014 (PDT)

Ok. Yes, the concept ofoverflow is not mentioned explictly and one interpretation says it means something else.

Saggy, I would to reiterate the need for adding content that is "rebuttal" proof. You said "Its tiring; verifying such claims.". Yes its more work making sure new content is strong and of high quality but its worth it. If you want you can add the Hadith to your own "to do" page/section where you can continue the research (in which case make sure you add the reference to the Abu Dawud meaning of suffering I found). Again, do look at the Silliness hadiths to see if any can be added from there to the Science errors page. Many hadiths/verses are easy decisions to insert if the meanings are clear (this kind of hadith is not found often). Easy or not, all new content still needs a careful look to make sure it is acceptable.

Its nice that you have been researching hadiths and verses and some of your other additions have been fine so yea, continue that. I recommend you do it like this as its easier: Put all of the interesting verses and hadiths you come across in your own temporary Sandbox page, and when you have a certain number, start inserting them into the relevant pages (after a good review). And then you can go back and search some more. This is easier than finding one quote, inserting, finding another and inserting etc. In the Sandbox you also have more freedom to write what you want until its finalized: User:Saggy/Sandbox, User:Saggy/Sandbox for QHS. etc --Axius (talk | contribs) 05:23, 5 April 2014 (PDT)

Greetings. I have plenty of Wiki experience from gaming wikis and I thought I may be able to help out here a bit now and then. Primarily I may want to start translating articles into Swedish. Sweden is quite prominent in certain aspects of Islam, especially since we have a large minority muslims and our government caters to the more fundamentalist aspects of Islam (they, both sides, seem to have no clue about the difference between moderate and fundamental followers of the religion) and I think there may be an interest for some of these articles in Swedish.

I'm happy to translate things as I go along, and I was thinking of starting pretty soon, but what articles do you think are most prominent and best candidates for translations? A question could be about which pages are visited the most etc.

Mind you that Swedes have a very good knowledge of English, in most cases, so many things can easily remain in English, such as the Quran stuff. I can't be bothered to find a Swedish Quran and copy all your hard work. I'm thinking more general articles on abrogations and stuff like that.

Open for suggestions!

Leord (talk) 01:57, 20 August 2014 (PDT)

Here is the list: WikiIslam:Translations You can go ahead with it in a sandbox. See Abrogation it has 3 articles, I think they are complete and hence fit for translation but take a second opinion on them. More links in Contradictions and Errors. Then there is WikiIslam:Site Map and Tasks to pick anything of your choice. Another interesting article is Questions to Ask About Islam but it keeps receiving some additions. Saggy (talk) 04:42, 20 August 2014 (PDT)

Hi Leord, thanks for joining. Yea it would be great to have some articles in Swedish. You can do the Abrogation articles if you like but how about 72 Virgins. This will remain a popular topic and there's a lot of wrong information for this topic that needs to be challenged. Other articles on our Translation page include List of killings by Muhammad, Health effects of Islamic dress (if there are many Hijabs, Veils seen in Sweden), Invitations to Violence, etc. Let me know what you want to start and I'll make a page for you that you can directly edit. --Axius (talk | contribs) 05:10, 20 August 2014 (PDT)

Brilliant guys, quick reply as well, nice. Cool, I will look into these over the next couple of days. As I said, Swedes are generally very proficient in English, so this is more a means to make it feel "more like home" for some parts of the possible audience than an essential service. As such I don't think the Swedish section will ever need a sub-domain, but it's better to simply link freely to English articles from the Swedish ones, and then have a translation choice on the English for the pertient ones you pointed out. It will probably take me a while to sort it all out.

I am also pretty used to both editing and article writing, so I'll give them all a once-over for grammar, wording, meaning, etc before I start. Probably won't hurt, anyway. :) 10:01, 20 August 2014 (PDT)

Ok, sounds good. Let me know here when you have a choice. Good to know Swedish people are somewhat familiar with english. --Axius (talk | contribs) 19:45, 20 August 2014 (PDT)

Upon doing a Google search for 'Taqiyya' (and all it's spelling variants)I was surprised and disappointed to find that wikislam did not come up (at least not in the first 5 pages). I'm not sure what (if anything) can be done to fix this, so I thought I should mention it. It is likely that this is an issue with other pages/topics/terms as well. I was thinking that the reason is due to the fact that there is no specific Taqiyya Page with the term Taqiyya in the title. I was wondering if I, or preferably a more experienced editor, could create a page specifically on the topic of Taqiyya or just create the page and have a link to http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Lying. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaakov (talk • contribs) 12:20, 20 August 2014‎ (Remember to sign your comments)

Sounds like a good idea to me. That is a start, the next step is also to get people to link the pages, THAT really adds google ranking. Leord (talk) 13:17, 20 August 2014 (PDT)

"Taqiyya" could become a redirect. I am not sure if it will affect the Google hits as a redirect. @Axius, can you look into it? Saggy (talk) 13:21, 20 August 2014 (PDT)

Unless you get hundreds of pages to link to the redirect, then NO, it does not. However, for SEO purposes, it's better to have separate articles with more specialised content linking each other (somethimes it's better with one bigger article, it depends, but in THIS case it would be ideal). Taqiyya is a very prominant concept when tackling Islam, I definitely think it would help to make sure it had its own article. I have quite a background in web... Leord (talk) 13:25, 20 August 2014 (PDT)

Taqiyya already redirects to Lying. There is a reason why we don't have a page on Taqiyya (and hopefully never will); it is seen as a predominantly Shi'ite practice used by them to save their own lives. Lying to non-Muslims to forward Islam is supported by Muslim texts, that is why we cover it all in Lying (Primary Sources). But as soon as critics mislabel it as "Taqiyya" they lose all credibility. We call it what it is; lying. No fancy words needed. Of course we do have a section within there that covers Taqiyya but that is only a small part of the entire subject. --Sahab (talk) 13:35, 20 August 2014 (PDT)

I would be in favor of having a (small) page on Taqiya to tell people what it is and what its not (so everyone can know including critics of Islam) and it can link to Lying but its to Sahab and he says there shouldnt be a page on it so there. --Axius (talk | contribs) 12:25, 21 August 2014 (PDT)

Actually Ax, your idea of having a stub on the subject is a good idea if done right. It should basically say taqiyya simply refers to Muslims lying to protect themselves (certainly not what these editors are suggesting, to conflate a single aspect of lying with the entire subject of lying itself). It literally only has to be a few sentences long. It would, once and for all, put an end to people trying to smear this site by claiming WikiIslam supports the idea of taqiyya specifically referring to Muslims being allowed to lie freely to everyone. --Sahab (talk) 10:57, 22 August 2014 (PDT)

Axius, I've created that page now[10] (it's a mix of my writing and the dhimmi views from Wikipedia). Let me know what you think. I would stress the need to watch that page carefully. If editors start editing it and claiming lying = taqiyya then it would impact the site's accuracy and credibility in a big way. --Sahab (talk) 13:08, 22 August 2014 (PDT)

Yup great job, looks great. Its definitely better to have this stub for everyone's sake. I havent tried to understand it in detail but I get the general idea. If anyone wants to change the article they would have to get pretty authentic sources to change the meanings. I was also not clear on the meaning of the term myself until a few years ago so its good to have this page for everyone. Seeing this page and the QHS:Lying page, many people will realize these are two different things and the QHS:Lying of course is a unique collection not available anywhere else. This should also make people who wanted to have a page on it. --Axius (talk | contribs) 16:38, 22 August 2014 (PDT)

Hi Wikiislam i am former editor of Sekulyarizm.org first Azerbaijan website about atheist and criticism of İslam.I want to help Wikiislam about translation of articles into Azerbaijani language.I would be happy if you help me about this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aykhan (talk • contribs) (Remember to sign your comments)

hi, welcome to the site. Please see WikiIslam:Instructions for Translators for instructions. List of Killings Ordered or Supported by Muhammad is a good choice. Also we have two or three articles from that website [11]. It might have been you who was the original author of those articles. --Axius (talk | contribs) 15:37, 21 January 2015 (PST)

I started to translate that article but i can't move it to translations section please help http://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Sandbox/M%C9%99h%C9%99mm%C9%99d_t%C9%99r%C9%99find%C9%99n_sifari%C5%9F_v%C9%99_yaxud_d%C9%99st%C9%99kl%C9%99n%C9%99n_q%C9%99tll%C9%99r

Hi people, I want to translate this in Romanian. I have edited on Wikipedia a few years ago, I think I can manage... How this starts, what shall I do? Michael (talk) 17:23, 17 August 2015 (PDT)

I would like to see a translation of 72 Virgins. We have others listed here [12]. If you tell me which article you want to do and its translated title, I can make a copy of that page that you can edit.

I also renamed that image to a better file name and inserted a disclaimer. See this part of the FAQ. --Axius (talk | contribs) 18:27, 17 August 2015 (PDT)