User:CPO675/Sandbox 1: Difference between revisions

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''<br />
''<br />While it would be futile to try and summarise many academic works in a small webpage section, as always academics are cited for those who want to read more. This will cover some of the key findings.
While the arguments from biblical scholars presented here cover some of their main points, it is ?recommended? to read the cited source material for those who want further information, as the argument are too long to fit on this page, but some of the main points are covered.''
 


'''Imminent Apocalyptic Preacher'''
'''Imminent Apocalyptic Preacher'''
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Analysis of the sources written closest to Jesus's life, <s>which the New Testament aims to record (even if not perfectly)</s>, has made it a consensus view that Jesus and his original followers believed the 'apocalypse',  i.e. judgment day in Islam; the end of history where the forces of evil would be destroyed and the righteous would enter the kingdom of heaven, would happen within his lifetime.
Analysis of the sources written closest to Jesus's life <s>recorded by early Christians, while does not necessarily match the contemporary Christian view of Jesus, goes against the Qur'ans historical claims.  which the New Testament aims to record (even if not perfectly),</s> has lead to a consensus view that Jesus and his original followers believed the 'apocalypse',  i.e. judgment day in Islam; <s>the end of history where the forces of evil would be destroyed and the righteous would enter the kingdom of heaven,</s> would happen within his lifetime.


As biblical scholar Albert Schweitzer famously pointed out in his seminal 1906 work 'The Quest of the Historical Jesus', Jesus’s failed prophecy was not an aberrant remark but at the core of his message.[3] Only in later writings did this message begin to be subverted for a metaphorical kingdom of Earth of those who join Jesus's followers believing in salvation and the resurrection [4] I.e. only the later books in the New Testament cannon began to reinterpret these apocalyptic messages as the expected return of Jesus didn’t materialize, suggesting a more spiritual interpretation of the "Kingdom of God." This reinterpretation is seen as an attempt to reconcile early Christian beliefs with the reality that the world didn't end as expected. []
As biblical scholar Albert Schweitzer famously pointed out in his seminal 1906 work 'The Quest of the Historical Jesus', Jesus’s failed prophecy was not a small one-off tradition but a core part of his preaching.[3] Only in later writings did this message begin to be subverted for a metaphorical kingdom of Earth of those who join Jesus's followers believing in salvation and the resurrection [4] I.e. only the later books in the New Testament cannon began to reinterpret these apocalyptic messages as the expected return of Jesus didn’t materialize, suggesting a more spiritual interpretation of the "Kingdom of God." This reinterpretation is seen as an attempt to reconcile early Christian beliefs with the reality that the world didn't end as expected. [7]




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(Luke 12:40) 40 You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”
(Luke 12:40) 40 You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”


(you must be ready - even though it's an unexpected hour? - rather than just e.g. death)
(you must be ready - even though it's an unexpected hour? - rather than just e.g. death)




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What we do see is in the The Gospel of John writing (~90-100CE), several decades later, and after the X years later after the first and second generations began passing away, the message of Jesus is  de-apocalycised much further [12]
What we do see is in the The Gospel of John writing (~90-100CE), several decades later again, and after the 40-50 years later after the first and second generations began passing away, the message of Jesus is  de-apocalycised much further [12] In fact, the imminent apocalyptic message is completely absent in John, as it became more apparent it isn't happening, and so 'kingdom of heaven only now becomes a metaphor.[7] So we can see the development of a Jewish preacher who believed it was imminent changing over time - with the initial view of early Christian snot matching the Qur'anic portrayal who of course could not have preached this given God would know it was not the end of the world soon.




 
Later apocraphyla written after the Gospel of John denies it further, and explicitly condemn the view [13]
 
Interestingly, the imminent apocalyptic message is completely absent in John, written 10-20 years later as it became more apparent it isn't happening, and so 'kingdom of heaven only now becomes a metaphor. So we can see the development of a Jewish preacher who believed it was imminent changing over time - with the initial view of early Christian snot matching the Qur'anic portrayal who of course could not have preached this given God would know it was not the end of the world soon.
 
 
Later apocraphyla written after John denies it further, and explicitly condemn the view [13]


'''Jesus's Ethical teachings and their apocalyptic context'''
'''Jesus's Ethical teachings and their apocalyptic context'''


Alongside the direct quotes of an imminent apocalypse and judgments, we have morals that make little sense as long-term ethical teachings for a religion, but do if one expected judgment
Alongside the direct quotes of an imminent apocalypse and judgments, we have morals that make little sense as long-term ethical teachings for a religion, but do if one expected judgment to arrive within very soon within their lifetimes. If the Jesus truly was the Qur'anic one, it is difficult to imagine why his early followers would have believed such things so contrary to Islam.


''As a corollary, people should give all they have for the sake of others. In our earliest accounts Jesus not only urges indifference to the good things of this life (which, when seen from an apocalyptic perspective, are actually not all that good-since they too will be destroyed in the coming Kingdom), he rails against them, telling his followers to be rid of them. And thus, when a rich person comes to Jesus to ask about inheriting eternal life, upon finding out that he has already observed the commandments of God found in the Law he hasn't murdered, committed adultery, stolen, or borne false witness, for example-Jesus tells him, "You still lack one thing: go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven" (Mark 10:17-21).'' Ehrman, Bart D.. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 168). Oxford University Press. AND Dale C. Allison Jr.. The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus (Kindle Locations 834-837). Kindle Edition.  
''As a corollary, people should give all they have for the sake of others. In our earliest accounts Jesus not only urges indifference to the good things of this life (which, when seen from an apocalyptic perspective, are actually not all that good-since they too will be destroyed in the coming Kingdom), he rails against them, telling his followers to be rid of them. And thus, when a rich person comes to Jesus to ask about inheriting eternal life, upon finding out that he has already observed the commandments of God found in the Law he hasn't murdered, committed adultery, stolen, or borne false witness, for example-Jesus tells him, "You still lack one thing: go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven" (Mark 10:17-21).'' Ehrman, Bart D.. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 168). Oxford University Press. AND Dale C. Allison Jr.. The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus (Kindle Locations 834-837). Kindle Edition.  
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(never say no to a borrower)
(never say no to a borrower)


Just in case you still don’t think Jesus taught his followers to be financially irresponsible, here’s another thing Christians certainly wish he hadn’t said. ...do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:42, NRSV)  [also Gospel of Thomas 95]
Just in case you still don’t think Jesus taught his followers to be financially irresponsible, here’s another thing Christians certainly wish he hadn’t said. ...do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you. (Matthew 5:42, NRSV)  [also Gospel of Thomas 95 (an early gnostic gospel with independent traditions] [4]


Madison, David. Ten Things Christians Wish Jesus Hadn't Taught: And Other Reasons to Question His Words (p. 25). Insighting Growth Publications. Kindle Edition.
Madison, David. Ten Things Christians Wish Jesus Hadn't Taught: And Other Reasons to Question His Words (p. 25). Insighting Growth Publications. Kindle Edition.
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(give away all your possession - very impractical unless worl ending and soon will have no need for them
 
(give away all your possession - very impractical unless world ending and soon will have no need for them


So therefore, none of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your possessions. (Luke 14:33 NRSV) (Dale C. Allison Jr.. The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus (Kindle Locations 834-837). Kindle Edition.)
So therefore, none of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your possessions. (Luke 14:33 NRSV) (Dale C. Allison Jr.. The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus (Kindle Locations 834-837). Kindle Edition.)
Madison, David. Ten Things Christians Wish Jesus Hadn't Taught: And Other Reasons to Question His Words (pp. 34-35). Insighting Growth Publications. Kindle Edition.


Madison, David. Ten Things Christians Wish Jesus Hadn't Taught: And Other Reasons to Question His Words (pp. 34-35). Insighting Growth Publications. Kindle Edition.




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''Jesus sent forth missionaries without staff, food, or money: Matt. 10:9-10; Mark 6:8-9; Luke 10:4.'' [18]




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[4]
 
[4] Dale C. Allison Jr.. The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus (Kindle Location 835). Kindle Edition.
 
Jesus commanded money to be lent without interest: Matt. 5:42; Gospel pel of Thomas 95.
 




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[7]
 
[7] Ehrman, Bart D.. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 130-131). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.




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Ehrman, Bart D.. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 134). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.
Ehrman, Bart D.. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 134). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.


Before moving on to a consideration of the specific criteria that historians use with the Gospel traditions, let me stress again here, in conclusion, my simple point about our rules of thumb. The earliest sources that we have consistently ascribe an apocalyptic message to Jesus. This message begins to be
Before moving on to a consideration of the specific criteria that historians use with the Gospel traditions, let me stress again here, in conclusion, my simple point about our rules of thumb. The earliest sources that we have consistently ascribe an apocalyptic message to Jesus. This message begins to be muted by the end of the first century (e.g., in Luke), until it virtually disappears (e.g., in John), and begins, then, to be explicitly rejected and spurned (e.g., in Thomas). It appears that when the end never did arrive, Christians had to take stock of the fact that Jesus said it would and changed his message accordingly. You can hardly blame them.


muted by the end of the first century (e.g., in Luke), until it virtually disappears (e.g., in John), and begins, then, to be explicitly rejected and spurned (e.g., in Thomas). It appears that when the end never did arrive, Christians had to take stock of the fact that Jesus said it would and changed his message accordingly. You can hardly blame them.




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[17] When Did Jesus Die? Unveiling the Month & Year of His Crucifixion. Joshua Schachterle, Ph.D. 2024. Bart Ehrman.com [https://www.bartehrman.com/when-did-jesus-die/#:~:text=According%20to%20Bart%20Ehrman%2C%20the,30%20CE%20for%20Jesus'%20crucifixion. https://www.bartehrman.com/when-did-jesus-die/#:~:text=According%20to%20Bart%20Ehrman%2C%20the,30%20CE%20for%20Jesus'%20crucifixion.]
[17] When Did Jesus Die? Unveiling the Month & Year of His Crucifixion. Joshua Schachterle, Ph.D. 2024. Bart Ehrman.com [https://www.bartehrman.com/when-did-jesus-die/#:~:text=According%20to%20Bart%20Ehrman%2C%20the,30%20CE%20for%20Jesus'%20crucifixion. https://www.bartehrman.com/when-did-jesus-die/#:~:text=According%20to%20Bart%20Ehrman%2C%20the,30%20CE%20for%20Jesus'%20crucifixion.]
[18] Dale C. Allison Jr.. The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus (Kindle Location 829). Kindle Edition.
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