User:CPO675/Sandbox 1: Difference between revisions

Jump to navigation Jump to search
Line 230: Line 230:
----
----


''<br />
While the arguments from biblical scholars presented here cover some of their main points, it is ?recommended? to read the cited source material for those who want further information, as the argument are too long to fit on this page, but some of the main points are covered.''


While the arguments from biblical scholars presented here cover some of their main points, it is recommended to read the cited source material for those who want further information, as the argument are too long to fit on this page, but some of the main points are covered.
'''Imminent Apocalyptic Preacher'''


'''Imminent Apocalyptic Preacher'''




Analysis of the sources written closest to Jesus's life has made it a consensus view that Jesus and his original followers believed the 'apocalypse',  i.e. judgment day in Islam; the end of history where the forces of evil would be destroyed and the righteous would enter the kingdom of heaven, would happen within his lifetime.
Analysis of the sources written closest to Jesus's life, <s>which the New Testament aims to record (even if not perfectly)</s>, has made it a consensus view that Jesus and his original followers believed the 'apocalypse',  i.e. judgment day in Islam; the end of history where the forces of evil would be destroyed and the righteous would enter the kingdom of heaven, would happen within his lifetime.


As biblical scholar Albert Schweitzer famously pointed out in his seminal 1906 work 'The Quest of the Historical Jesus', Jesus’s failed prophecy was not an aberrant remark but at the core of his message.[3] Only in later writings did this message begin to be subverted for a metaphorical kingdom of Earth of those who join Jesus's followers believing in salvation and the resurrection [4] I.e. only the later books in the New Testament cannon began to reinterpret these apocalyptic messages as the expected return of Jesus didn’t materialize, suggesting a more spiritual interpretation of the "Kingdom of God." This reinterpretation is seen as an attempt to reconcile early Christian beliefs with the reality that the world didn't end as expected. []
As biblical scholar Albert Schweitzer famously pointed out in his seminal 1906 work 'The Quest of the Historical Jesus', Jesus’s failed prophecy was not an aberrant remark but at the core of his message.[3] Only in later writings did this message begin to be subverted for a metaphorical kingdom of Earth of those who join Jesus's followers believing in salvation and the resurrection [4] I.e. only the later books in the New Testament cannon began to reinterpret these apocalyptic messages as the expected return of Jesus didn’t materialize, suggesting a more spiritual interpretation of the "Kingdom of God." This reinterpretation is seen as an attempt to reconcile early Christian beliefs with the reality that the world didn't end as expected. []
Line 327: Line 328:




New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman notes that the majority of scholars hypothesis there was also an earlier but lost Gospel known in scholarship 'Q' (named after the German word for “source” Quelle). to have existed, based off shared stories between the gospels of Luke and Matthew which do not come from the earliest Gospel of Mark, which may shared sayings appear to come from. It is believed they used Mark as a key source too.[6]
New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman also reports that the majority of scholars hypothesis there was also an earlier but lost Gospel known in scholarship 'Q' (named after the German word for “source” Quelle). to have existed, based off shared stories between the gospels of Luke and Matthew which do not come from the earliest Gospel of Mark, which may shared sayings appear to come from. It is believed they used Mark as a key source too.[6]
 




As Bart Ehrman (year) notes, through careful examination of the earliest and most likely authentic material (e.g. multiply and independently attested, dissimilar[15] and matching the context), we can see early Christians believed and saved the beliefs and saying of Jesus's imminent apocalyptic sayings [9]
Bart Ehrman 2001 notes, through careful examination of the earliest and most likely authentic material (e.g. multiply and independently attested, dissimilar[15] and matching the context), we can see early Christians believed and saved the beliefs and saying of Jesus's imminent apocalyptic sayings [9]




Beginning with the earliest writings on Jesus, the authentic letters of Paul, (explain what Paul's letters are) we see some explicit references
Beginning with the earliest writings on Jesus, the authentic [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_epistles letters of Paul], <s>(explain what Paul's letters are)</s> we see some explicit references


* 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (~C.    49 C.E.): Paul writes, "According to the Lord’s word, we tell you    that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,    will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord    himself will come down from heaven... And the dead in Christ will rise    first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up    together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Paul    includes himself and his contemporaries in the group who will be alive at    Christ's return.
* 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 (~C.    49 C.E.): Paul writes, "According to the Lord’s word, we tell you    that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord,    will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord    himself will come down from heaven... And the dead in Christ will rise    first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up    together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." Paul    includes himself and his contemporaries in the group who will be alive at    Christ's return.
Line 340: Line 342:




This is continued in the Gospels, in fact, the very first words Jesus utters in the first gospel to be written are,


“The time has come. The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news” (Mark 1:15).
This is continued in the Gospels, in fact, the very first words Jesus utters in the first gospel (Mark ~70CE) to be written are, “The time has come. The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news” (Mark 1:15).
 




Line 359: Line 361:




The in the next Gospel Matthew
This continues in the next Gospel, the Gospel of Matthew (~80-90CE).




Line 380: Line 382:




In Luke we continue to see early apocalyptic traditions, however as Bart Ehrman notes, we begin to see a 'de-apocolyting' of the message in Luke, [10] who edits earlier traditions from Mark and Q so that it is the next generation that it will arrive.[11]
 
In Luke we continue to see early apocalyptic traditions, however as Bart Ehrman notes, we begin to see a 'de-apocolyting' of the message in Luke, [10] who edits earlier traditions from Mark and the earlier lost 'Q' source, so that it is ho longer Jesus's generation, but the next generation that the eschaton will arrive.[11]




Line 396: Line 399:




(you must be ready - even though it's an unexpected hour?)


(you must be ready - even though it's an unexpected hour? - rather than just e.g. death)






Very unlikely to be added by Christians after the fact, as it didn't happen.




These are very unlikely to be added by Christians after the fact, as of course didn't happen, so would not naturally be words one would want attributed to their saviour..




John the Baptist whom Jesus closely preached with and is mentioned many times in the NT, and is incidentally is mentioned in the Quran,  was also an apocolyptic pracher  (Matthew 3:2-10)


What we do see is in the The Gospel of John writing (~90-100CE), several decades later, and after the X years later after the first and second generations began passing away, the message of Jesus is  de-apocalycised much further [12]


The Q source gives further information, for here John preaches a clear message of apocalyptic judgment to the crowds that have come out to see him: “Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruits worthy of repentance.… Even now the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire” (Luke 3:7–9). Ehrman, Bart D.. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 138). Oxford University Press. Kindle Edition.
The Gospel of John writing X years later after the first and second generations passing away,  de-apocalypses much further [12]
Later apocraphyla written after John denies it further, and explicitly condemn the view [13]




Line 422: Line 418:




Later apocraphyla written after John denies it further, and explicitly condemn the view [13]


'''Jesus's Ethical teachings and their apocalyptic context'''
'''Jesus's Ethical teachings and their apocalyptic context'''
Line 427: Line 424:
Alongside the direct quotes of an imminent apocalypse and judgments, we have morals that make little sense as long-term ethical teachings for a religion, but do if one expected judgment
Alongside the direct quotes of an imminent apocalypse and judgments, we have morals that make little sense as long-term ethical teachings for a religion, but do if one expected judgment


''As a corollary, people should give all they have for the sake of others. In our earliest accounts Jesus not only urges indifference to the good things of this life (which, when seen from an apocalyptic perspective, are actually not all that good-since they too will be destroyed in the coming Kingdom), he rails against them, telling his followers to be rid of them. And thus, when a rich person comes to Jesus to ask about inheriting eternal life, upon finding out that he has already observed the commandments of God found in the Law he hasn't murdered, committed adultery, stolen, or borne false witness, for example-Jesus tells him, "You still lack one thing: go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven" (Mark 10:17-21).'' Ehrman, Bart D.. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 168). Oxford University Press.
''As a corollary, people should give all they have for the sake of others. In our earliest accounts Jesus not only urges indifference to the good things of this life (which, when seen from an apocalyptic perspective, are actually not all that good-since they too will be destroyed in the coming Kingdom), he rails against them, telling his followers to be rid of them. And thus, when a rich person comes to Jesus to ask about inheriting eternal life, upon finding out that he has already observed the commandments of God found in the Law he hasn't murdered, committed adultery, stolen, or borne false witness, for example-Jesus tells him, "You still lack one thing: go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven" (Mark 10:17-21).'' Ehrman, Bart D.. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium (p. 168). Oxford University Press. AND Dale C. Allison Jr.. The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus (Kindle Locations 834-837). Kindle Edition.  


Followers are essentially told not to save money, only focusing on preparing for heaven.
Followers are essentially told not to save money, only focusing on preparing for heaven.
Line 434: Line 431:


Madison, David. Ten Things Christians Wish Jesus Hadn't Taught: And Other Reasons to Question His Words (p. 19). Insighting Growth Publications. Kindle Edition.
Madison, David. Ten Things Christians Wish Jesus Hadn't Taught: And Other Reasons to Question His Words (p. 19). Insighting Growth Publications. Kindle Edition.


(Don’t worry about basic human needs)
(Don’t worry about basic human needs)
Line 467: Line 462:
(give away all your possession - very impractical unless worl ending and soon will have no need for them
(give away all your possession - very impractical unless worl ending and soon will have no need for them


So therefore, none of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your possessions. (Luke 14:33 NRSV)
So therefore, none of you can become my disciple if you do not give up all your possessions. (Luke 14:33 NRSV) (Dale C. Allison Jr.. The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus (Kindle Locations 834-837). Kindle Edition.)




Line 486: Line 481:


Dale Allison: https://www.thecontemplativelife.org/blog/historical-jesus-dale-allison-jesus-apocalyptic-prophet • ''Several times Jesus admonishes people to be on the alert because the eschatological crisis may come at any time: Matt. 24:43-51 = Luke 12:39-46; Mark 13:33-37; Matt. 25:1-13; Luke 12:35-38; 21:34-36.''
Dale Allison: https://www.thecontemplativelife.org/blog/historical-jesus-dale-allison-jesus-apocalyptic-prophet • ''Several times Jesus admonishes people to be on the alert because the eschatological crisis may come at any time: Matt. 24:43-51 = Luke 12:39-46; Mark 13:33-37; Matt. 25:1-13; Luke 12:35-38; 21:34-36.''
Dale Allison gets same Jesus but with different methods than Ehrman ''(How can this be? Results, one might suppose, are determined by method. In my case, however, differentent methods, with and without criteria of authenticity, have produced the same result.)'' Dale C. Allison Jr.. The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus (Kindle Locations 795-796). Kindle Edition.
He says instead:
''We should rather be looking for repeating patterns and contemplating the big picture. ture. We should trust first, if we are to trust at all, what is most likely to be trustworthy.''
Dale C. Allison Jr.. The Historical Christ and the Theological Jesus (Kindle Locations 823-824). Kindle Edition.
=== References ===
=== References ===


580

edits

Navigation menu