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This is part one of a [[Dhul-Qarnayn and the Sun Setting in a Muddy Spring - Part Two#Part Two: What do Qur’an 18:86 and 18:90 say happened next?|two-part]] article providing a comprehensive examination of the different interpretations of [[Qur'an]] 18:86 and 18:90.
This is part one of a [[Dhul-Qarnayn and the Sun Setting in a Muddy Spring - Part Two#Part Two: What do Qur’an 18:86 and 18:90 say happened next?|two-part]] article providing a comprehensive examination of the different interpretations of [[Qur'an]] 18:86 and 18:90.


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In verses 19:16; 24:35 and 28:44, gharb (from the same root as maghrib) is used in an adjectival form to mean western or of the west and sharq (from the same root as mashriq) is used in an adjectival form to mean eastern or of the east.
In verses 19:16; 24:35 and 28:44, gharb (from the same root as maghrib) is used in an adjectival form to mean western or of the west and sharq (from the same root as mashriq) is used in an adjectival form to mean eastern or of the east.


Now we shall see that there are at least 4 serious problems with the claim that maghriba a'''l'''shshamsi in 18:86 means the west and matliAAa a'''l'''shshamsi in 18:90 means the east.
Now we shall see that there are at least 5 serious problems with the claim that maghriba a'''l'''shshamsi in 18:86 means the west and matliAAa a'''l'''shshamsi in 18:90 means the east.


===Was alshshams ever used with al maghrib to mean the west?===
===Was alshshams ever used with al maghrib to mean the west?===
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Better still, these verses would be worded completely differently. Even if one argues that there is some poetic reason to describe the west and east using the words we have in 18:86 and 18:90, it would be an extraordinarily poor choice of words since people reasonably understood them to be about the literal setting and rising places of the sun, as we shall see. How would we know what anything in the Qur’an means if it uses words that commonly (and when the context suggests) mean a particular thing when it really means a different concept, for which it uses a different word everywhere else?
Better still, these verses would be worded completely differently. Even if one argues that there is some poetic reason to describe the west and east using the words we have in 18:86 and 18:90, it would be an extraordinarily poor choice of words since people reasonably understood them to be about the literal setting and rising places of the sun, as we shall see. How would we know what anything in the Qur’an means if it uses words that commonly (and when the context suggests) mean a particular thing when it really means a different concept, for which it uses a different word everywhere else?
===An extraordinary coincidence===
The simplest and perhaps greatest problem for the west-east interpretation is the striking combination of the two key elements in each of verses 18:86 and 18:90. Not only did Dhu’l Qarnayn reach “the setting place of the sun”, but there also he found the sun setting in a certain place. Not only did he reach “the rising place of the sun”, but there he found the sun rising in a certain way.
Thus, an extraordinary coincidence is required. Under this interpretation, it just so happens that straight after the verses inform us that Dhu’l Qarnayn reached places that merely mean the west and east, but are distinctively and literally worded as the setting and rising places of the sun, we are told of the sun’s behaviour.


===Commentators use knowledge unknown to 7th century Arabs===
===Commentators use knowledge unknown to 7th century Arabs===
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Hoskin, Michael and Gingerich, Owen, “Islamic Astronomy” in The Cambridge Concise History of Astronomy, Ed. M. Hoskin, p.50-52, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1999
Hoskin, Michael and Gingerich, Owen, “Islamic Astronomy” in The Cambridge Concise History of Astronomy, Ed. M. Hoskin, p.50-52, Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1999
<BR><BR>
<BR><BR>
It can be viewed free online at [http://books.google.com/books?id=4nmjGztzfZwC&pg=PA50 http://books.google.com/books?id=4nmjGztzfZwC&pg=PA50]
It can be viewed free online at http://books.google.com/books?id=4nmjGztzfZwC&pg=PA50
</ref>  
</ref>  


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Incidentally, at the beginning of the same work in a section about pre-Islamic traditions<ref>Guillaume op. cit. p.12</ref>, Ibn Ishaq quotes some lines of verse by a Yemeni king called Tubba’ who says that Dhu’l Qarnayn witnessed the sun setting in its resting place into a muddy pool. See section 6.5.1 below for a quote by al-Tabari of these same lines.
Incidentally, at the beginning of the same work in a section about pre-Islamic traditions<ref>Guillaume op. cit. p.12</ref>, Ibn Ishaq quotes some lines of verse by a Yemeni king called Tubba’ who says that Dhu’l Qarnayn witnessed the sun setting in its resting place into a muddy pool. See section 6.5.1 below for a quote by al-Tabari of these same lines.


Given all of the problems detailed above (especially that a'''l'''shshamsi is never used when the meaning is merely east or west, that matliAA is never used in a phrase that means the east and the problem of what wajadaha refers to in the next phrases), it is clear that the west/east idiom interpretation of 18:86 and 18:90 cannot be correct.
Given all of the problems detailed above (especially the extraordinary coincidence required by the two elements in each verse; that a'''l'''shshamsi is never used when the meaning is merely east or west; that matliAA is never used in a phrase that means the east; and the problem of what wajadaha refers to in the next phrases), it is clear that the west/east idiom interpretation of 18:86 and 18:90 cannot be correct.


==Second interpretation: He reached [a place at] the time of sunset and sunrise or he reached those times==
==Second interpretation: He reached [a place at] the time of sunset and sunrise or he reached those times==
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Why say that Allah gave Dhu’l Qarnayn a course/way/road to everything without telling us what it was about the physical locations of the peoples he visited that made this a remarkable achievement?
Why say that Allah gave Dhu’l Qarnayn a course/way/road to everything without telling us what it was about the physical locations of the peoples he visited that made this a remarkable achievement?


The next problem is that verses 18:86 and 18:90 seem to be explaining the reason why Dhu’l Qarnayn followed the ways mentioned in the previous verses. It could be argued that the purpose of each journey was to find a people, but the beginnings of each verse seem to suggest that the intention related to the sun and that this unexpectedly resulted in the discovery of some people. He would be traveling distances in order to reach the times of sunset and sunrise, which seems rather pointless. Similar points are made by P. Newton<ref name="P. Newton">P. Newton - [http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Newton/spring.html The Qur'an: Is It A Miracle?/ Zul-Qarnain and the Sun] - Answering Islam</ref> and Cornelius<ref>Cornelius - [http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/cornelius/sun_in_muddy_pool.html The Sun in the Muddy Pool and the Prophethood of Muhammad] - Answering Islam</ref> at [[Answering Islam]].
The next problem is that verses 18:86 and 18:90 seem to be explaining the reason why Dhu’l Qarnayn followed the ways mentioned in the previous verses. It could be argued that the purpose of each journey was to find a people, but the beginnings of each verse seem to suggest that the intention related to the sun and that this unexpectedly resulted in the discovery of some people. He would be traveling distances in order to reach the times of sunset and sunrise, which seems rather pointless. Similar points are made by P. Newton<ref name="P. Newton">P. Newton - [http://answering-islam.org/Authors/Newton/spring.html The Qur'an: Is It A Miracle?/ Zul-Qarnain and the Sun] - Answering Islam</ref> and Cornelius<ref>Cornelius - [http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/cornelius/sun_in_muddy_pool.html The Sun in the Muddy Pool and the Prophethood of Muhammad] - Answering Islam</ref> at Answering Islam.


A related problem is that if he just followed a way until the time when the sun sets rather than until he reached the place where the sun sets, there is no reason to then describe what he found the sun to be doing.
A related problem is that if he just followed a way until the time when the sun sets rather than until he reached the place where the sun sets, there is no reason to then describe what he found the sun to be doing.
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====Hadith====
====Hadith====
We saw above some of the hadith that describe the sun having setting and rising places which it goes into and comes out from. The following hadith, is graded Sahih (authentic) by Dar-us-Salam (Hafiz Zubair 'Ali Za'i) and has a chain of narration graded as Sahih  by al-Albani. It is from Sunan Abu Dawud, book XXV - Kitab Al-Ahruf Wa Al-Qira’at (Book of Dialects and Readings Of The Qur’an):
We saw above some of the hadith that describe the sun having setting and rising places which it goes into and comes out from. The following hadith is graded Sahih (authentic) by Dar-us-Salam (Hafiz Zubair 'Ali Za'i) and has a chain of narration graded as Sahih  by al-Albani. It is from Sunan Abu Dawud, book XXV - Kitab Al-Ahruf Wa Al-Qira’at (Book of Dialects and Readings Of The Qur’an):


{{Quote||Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.<ref>Kitab Al-Ahruf Wa Al-Qira’at [Book of Dialects and Readings Of The Qur’an], Chapter 1498, p. 1120 in Prof. Ahmad Hasan (trans.), Sunan Abu Dawud – English Translation With Explanatory Notes, Volume III. Chapters 1338-1890, XXV, hadith 3991, Lahore: Sh. Muhammad Ashraf, 1984 quoted in [http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/mhmd_on_sunset.html Muhammad and the Sun’s Setting Place] - Sam Shamoun, Answering Islam</ref> [The references section includes a link to the Arabic<ref>For the Arabic, see #4002 [http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=192&TOCID=1520&BookID=28&PID=3490 here] and for the Arabic, English, and grading by al-Albani, see [http://sunnah.com/abudawud/32/34 here]</ref>]}}
{{Quote||Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.<ref>Kitab Al-Ahruf Wa Al-Qira’at [Book of Dialects and Readings Of The Qur’an], Chapter 1498, p. 1120 in Prof. Ahmad Hasan (trans.), Sunan Abu Dawud – English Translation With Explanatory Notes, Volume III. Chapters 1338-1890, XXV, hadith 3991, Lahore: Sh. Muhammad Ashraf, 1984 quoted in [http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/mhmd_on_sunset.html Muhammad and the Sun’s Setting Place] - Sam Shamoun, Answering Islam</ref> [The references section includes a link to the Arabic<ref>For the Arabic, see #4002 [http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=192&TOCID=1520&BookID=28&PID=3490 here] and for the Arabic, English, and grading by al-Albani, see [http://sunnah.com/abudawud/32/34 here]</ref>]}}


He also gives another version of the hadith in Musnad Ahmad (this time the spring is muddy rather than warm - the Arabic words sound similar and the same variant readings exist for Qur’an verse 18:86). The same hadith is also recorded by al-Zamakhshari (1075-1143 CE) in his commentary on the Qur’an, al-Kashshaf.<ref>For a translation see Al-Zamakhshari, Al-Kashshaf 3rd Edition, Volume 2, p. 743, Lebanon: Dar Al-Kotob Al-Ilmiyah, 1987 quoted in (trans.) [http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Shabir-Ally/science11.htm Science in the Quran/ Chapter 11: The Sun & Moon and Their Orbits] - Sam Shamoun, Answering Islam (''The phrase translated “spring of slimy water” is actually, “hot spring” in the Arabic. For the Arabic, click [http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=2&tSoraNo=18&tAyahNo=86&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1 here]'')</ref> Even if one doubts that this is an authentic report about Muhammad, it is certainly further evidence that early Muslims understood 18:86 to mean a literal setting place. The possibility that Muhammad ever claimed a different interpretation thus further diminishes.
There is also another version of the hadith in Musnad Ahmad (this time the spring is muddy rather than warm - the Arabic words sound similar and the same variant readings exist for Qur’an verse 18:86). The same hadith is also recorded by al-Zamakhshari (1075-1143 CE) in his commentary on the Qur’an, al-Kashshaf.<ref>For a translation see Al-Zamakhshari, Al-Kashshaf 3rd Edition, Volume 2, p. 743, Lebanon: Dar Al-Kotob Al-Ilmiyah, 1987 quoted in (trans.) [http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Shabir-Ally/science11.htm Science in the Quran/ Chapter 11: The Sun & Moon and Their Orbits] - Sam Shamoun, Answering Islam (''The phrase translated “spring of slimy water” is actually, “hot spring” in the Arabic. For the Arabic, click [http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=2&tSoraNo=18&tAyahNo=86&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1 here]'')</ref> Even if one doubts that this is an authentic report about Muhammad, it is certainly further evidence that early Muslims understood 18:86 to mean a literal setting place. The possibility that Muhammad ever claimed a different interpretation thus further diminishes.


There are also numerous sahih hadith that state that the sun rises and sets between the horns of Satan, for example:
There are also numerous sahih hadith that state that the sun rises and sets between the horns of Satan, for example:
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{{Quote||(Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun) where the sun sets, (he found it setting in a muddy spring) a blackened, muddy and stinking spring; it is also said that this means: a hot spring…<ref>[http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=18&tAyahNo=86&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Sura 18 Verse 86] - Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs</ref>}}
{{Quote||(Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun) where the sun sets, (he found it setting in a muddy spring) a blackened, muddy and stinking spring; it is also said that this means: a hot spring…<ref>[http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=18&tAyahNo=86&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Sura 18 Verse 86] - Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs</ref>}}


For 18:90 ''Tafsir al-Jalalayn'' by al-Mahalli and completed by Siyuti in 1505 CE has:
''Tafsir al-Thalabi'' (also known as ''Al-Kashf wa-l-bayān''; 11th century CE) reports the following view for verse 18:86:


{{Quote||until, when he reached the rising of the sun, the place where it rises, he found it rising on a folk, namely, Negroes (zanj), for whom We had not provided against it, that is, [against] the sun, any [form of] cover, in the way of clothing or roofing, as their land could not support any structures; they had underground tunnels into which they would disappear at the rising of the sun and out of which they would emerge when it was at its highest point [in the sky].<ref>[http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=18&tAyahNo=86&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Sura 18 Verse 86] - Tafsir al-Jalalayn</ref>}}
{{Quote||Abu al-Aliya said: I was informed that the sun is in a spring; the spring casts it to the East [al mashriq]<ref>[https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=75&tSoraNo=18&tAyahNo=86&tDisplay=yes&Page=2&Size=1&LanguageId=1 Sura 18 Verse 86] - Tafsir al-Thalabi</ref>}}


Note that this only makes sense if the sun being at its highest point means it has literally moved further away from the people.
The views reported in these commentaries understand these verses to mean literal setting and rising places (most early commentators include no opinion). It is clear from the hadith contained in hadith collections and commentaries that there was interest in what happens to the sun when it is beyond view, so if Muhammad had given another interpretation there would surely be hadith to indicate as such, yet there are none.
 
Newton quotes similar reports from other commentaries on 18:90.<ref name="P. Newton"></ref> These commentators or the reports that they quote understand these verses to mean literal setting and rising places. It is clear from the hadith contained in hadith collections and commentaries that there was interest in what happens to the sun when it is beyond view, so if Muhammad had given another interpretation there would surely be hadith to indicate as such, yet there is none.


====A close similarity with the Syriac legend about Alexander the Great====
====A close similarity with the Syriac legend about Alexander the Great====
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The tables below show how some of the Arabic words discussed above are used in the Qur’an (not including the controversial instances in 18:86 and 18:90) and in the 6 major Sunni hadith collections. This might make it easier for the reader to verify the statements made in this article and reach his or her own conclusions. Of course, many of the most important arguments in the preceding discussion cannot be derived merely from these tables.
The tables below show how some of the Arabic words discussed above are used in the Qur’an (not including the controversial instances in 18:86 and 18:90) and in the 6 major Sunni hadith collections. This might make it easier for the reader to verify the statements made in this article and reach his or her own conclusions. Of course, many of the most important arguments in the preceding discussion cannot be derived merely from these tables.


{| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" align="center" width = "100%" class=wikitable
{| class="wikitable" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" align="center" width="100%"
! Word
!Word
! Place (ism makan)
!Place (ism makan)
! Time (ism zaman)
!Time (ism zaman)
! East/West
!East/West
|-
|-
|Maghrib
|Maghrib
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{| border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" align="center" width = "100%" class=wikitable
{| class="wikitable" border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5" align="center" width="100%"
! Verb
!Verb
! Referring to the sun in relation to a location
!Referring to the sun in relation to a location
! Referring to the sun in relation to time
!Referring to the sun in relation to time
|-
|-
|Gharaba
|Gharaba
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The arguments against this interpretation have been demonstrated to be weak or groundless. The alternative interpretations have been shown to have fatal contextual, grammatical and logical flaws and use word meanings invented purely in an attempt to support those interpretations.
The arguments against this interpretation have been demonstrated to be weak or groundless. The alternative interpretations have been shown to have fatal contextual, grammatical and logical flaws and use word meanings invented purely in an attempt to support those interpretations.
 
==See Also==
{{Core Science}}
== See Also ==


*[[Dhul-Qarnayn and the Sun Setting in a Muddy Spring - Part Two|Dhul-Qarnayn and the Sun Setting in a Muddy Spring (Part Two)]]
*[[Dhul-Qarnayn and the Sun Setting in a Muddy Spring - Part Two|Dhul-Qarnayn and the Sun Setting in a Muddy Spring (Part Two)]]
*[[Did Muhammad and the early Muslims know that the Earth is round|Did Muhammad and the Earliest Muslims Know the Earth is Round?]]
*[[Did Muhammad and the early Muslims know that the Earth is round|Did Muhammad and the Earliest Muslims Know the Earth is Round?]]
{{Hub4|Dhul-Qarnayn|Dhul-Qarnayn}}
{{Hub4|Dhul-Qarnayn|Dhul-Qarnayn}}
{{Hub4|Cosmology|Cosmology}}
{{Hub4|Cosmology|Cosmology}}


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[[Category:Islam and Science]]
[[Category:Islam and Science]]
[[Category:Qur'an]]
[[Category:Qur'an]]
[[Category:Martin Taverille]]
[[Category:Dhul-Qarnayn]]
{{page_title|Dhul-Qarnayn and the Sun Setting in a Muddy Spring (Part One)}}
{{page_title|Dhul-Qarnayn and the Sun Setting in a Muddy Spring (Part One)}}
[[Category:Cosmology]]
[[Category:Criticism of Islam]]
[[Category:Sacred history]]
[[Category:Christian tradition]]
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