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When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them. | When a fresh water river flows into the sea or ocean, there is a transition region in between. This transition region is called an estuary where the fresh water remains temporarily separated from the salt water. However, this separation is not absolute, is not permanent, and the different salinity levels between the two bodies of water eventually homogenize. The Qur'an, by contrast, suggests that there is a separation between two seas, one salty and one fresh water, maintained by some sort of divine barrier placed between them. | ||
=== The Qur'an === | === The Qur'an === | ||
There is a consistent theme of 'the two seas' ("al-baḥrayn, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), with the exact same term being used 5 times in the Quran. | |||
We are told that there are two seas (al- | We are told that there are two seas ("al-baḥrayn, ٱلْبَحْرَيْنِ"), one freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter), and that there is a barrier that it is forbidden to be pass, implying that they will ''never'' be passed. ''(verse straight after talks about creating humans)'' | ||
{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}} | {{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}} | ||
And again in Q35:12 we are told the two seas with one being | {{Quran|55|22}} quoted below states that coral emerge from both seas. However, coral are found only in salt water oceans, and exposure to freshwater leads to coral bleaching. ''(mentioned just after creating humans and jinn - nature)''{{Quote|{{Quran|55|19-22}}|He released the two seas, meeting [side by side]; Between them is a barrier [so] neither of them transgresses. So which of the favors of your Lord would you deny? From both of them emerge pearl and coral.}}And again in Q35:12 we are told the two seas with one being freshwater (palatable and sweet), and one seawater (salt and bitter). But from both come fresh meat (presumably fish) and ornaments to wear come from both (presumably coral and pearl as mentioned above in verse Q 55:22): | ||
{{Quote|{{Quran|35|12}}|And the two seas are not alike: this, fresh, sweet, good to drink, this (other) bitter, salt. And from them both ye eat fresh meat and derive the ornament that ye wear. And thou seest the ship cleaving them with its prow that ye may seek of His bounty, and that haply ye may give thanks.}} | {{Quote|{{Quran|35|12}}|And the two seas are not alike: this, fresh, sweet, good to drink, this (other) bitter, salt. And from them both ye eat fresh meat and derive the ornament that ye wear. And thou seest the ship cleaving them with its prow that ye may seek of His bounty, and that haply ye may give thanks.}} | ||
({{Quran|35|12}} | ''({{Quran|35|12}} following creation of humans from clay.)'' | ||
Again, there is a barrier between the two seas. ''(verse before mentions creating the heavens and the Earth)'' | |||
Again, there is a barrier between the two seas | |||
{{Quote|{{Quran|27|61}}|Is He [not best] who made the earth a stable ground and placed within it rivers and made for it firmly set mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier? Is there a deity with Allah? [No], but most of them do not know.}} | {{Quote|{{Quran|27|61}}|Is He [not best] who made the earth a stable ground and placed within it rivers and made for it firmly set mountains and placed between the two seas a barrier? Is there a deity with Allah? [No], but most of them do not know.}} | ||
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However critics point out, as above, that a ?? partition zone??is not a totally accurate way to describe a barrier in that it doesn't block the water, as | However critics point out, as above, that a barrier is not a and''' ?? partition zone?? (look this up when book arrives)''' is not a totally accurate way to describe a barrier in that it doesn't block the water, as the seas do mix - and are they are constantly mixing. This water creates a is called Brackish Water. This is changing the meaning of the words to fit a natural phenomena - there is nothing mentioned about the scientific reasons for his (around different densities). | ||
A layman could see this and think God put a barrier was a good explanation: | A layman could see this and think God put a barrier was a good explanation: | ||
{{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}} | {{Quote|{{Quran|25|53}}|It is He Who has let free the two bodies of flowing water: One palatable and sweet, and the other salt and bitter; yet has He made a barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to be passed.}} | ||
==== Issues with this interpretation ==== | |||
# | ===== Problems with miracle claim ===== | ||
Critics point to issue's with inserting this is a scientific miracle, or even scientifically accurate: | |||
# It | # Firstly as with all claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clear<nowiki/>ly described a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into typical categories of selective literalism, de-historicization and pseudo-corelation etc. (''see [[Scientific Miracles in the Quran]]''), taking advantage of ambiguity in language to fit a modern reading rather than an honest one. | ||
# Estuary water sweet and palatable or filled with dirt? Estuary water often is salty as well (not just sweet), and dirty. Not an accurate description<ref>[https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est01_whatis.html#:~:text=The%20mixture%20of%20seawater%20and,%2C%20weather%2C%20or%20other%20factors. What is an Estuary?] National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration</ref> | # This description is so basic and lacking any actual science (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could easily apply to someone sa<nowiki/>iling nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as they have done since ancient times<ref>''[https://www.bu.edu/archaeology/files/2016/05/Ancient-mariners-may-have-set-sail-130000-years-ago-_-Register-_-The-Times-The-Sunday-Times.pdf Ancient mariners may have set sail 130,000 years ago].'' ARCHAEOLOGY. The Times. Norman Hammond. 2016. Boston University Archive</ref>, as the colours are often different (as seen in the image X), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier between the two waters. | ||
# | # This description also implies there is no mixing between them at all, and could just as easily be written by someone believing that someone believing there was no mixi<nowiki/>ng at all between them. | ||
===== Problems with general accuracy ===== | |||
We are told that there are specifically '''the''' '''two seas(al-baḥrayn).''' | |||
* This uses the definite particle ''''al'''<nowiki/>' for 'the' for a specific two seas, not general. | |||
* '''<nowiki/>'baḥr'''' for large body of water/sea. | |||
* Ending in '''<nowiki/>'ayn'''<nowiki/>' meaning there are two of them. | |||
# Yet this happens in many places (there are over 1,200 documented estuaries,<ref>''[https://www.seaaroundus.org/about-estuaries-database/#:~:text=Specifically%2C%20this%20database%2C%20the%20first,and%20territories%20(Alder%202003). About Estuary Database].'' Sea Around Us. Jacqueline Alder. Citing: ''Alder J (2003) Putting the Coast in the Sea Around Us Project. The Sea Around Us Newsletter No. 15:1-2.'' | |||
</ref> i.e. more than two) across the world - nowhere does the language suggest this is the case, as to match this verse it must be referring to a single specific but unnamed estuary. There are many far better ways to phrase this if it meant this phenomena. | |||
# There are many different types of estuaries (e.g. salt wedge, Fjord-type, Slightly Stratified - you can read about them [https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est05_circulation.html here]), however despite what it may look like on<nowiki/> the surface they all mix to varying degrees - which is not a logic inference of having a barrier between them that they cannot pass. A pycnocline zone, and more specifically, a halocline zone, is always a mixture of fresh water and salt water - in fact it is a product of their mixing. In case of salt water and fresh water, '''there cannot be density discontinuity. The later can only be present if two liquids are immiscible, for example water and oil.''' | |||
# It does not say riverنھر (Nahar - a word used elsewhere in the Qur'an to describe a river) and sea, which would have been an accurate way to describe it if the mixing <nowiki/>zone isn't part of either sea being mentioned but a 'barrier' - ''although to be fair every large body of water was referred to using''<nowiki/> ''this word in classical Arabic, this would not be the best way to match smaller estuaries such as???''. This also would separate it from the other bodies of water with coral being referred to as apologists do. | |||
# Also arguably 3 bodies of water, it could have stated something along the lines of one is mixed blocking the others - which would have been a closer description to a b<nowiki/>arrier. Should describe one as a river in this case. Small rivers would especially not be a good description here. as there's no ver<nowiki/>se to say the 'barrier' contains mixed bodies of water in the Quran verses. | |||
# Estuary water sweet and palatable or filled with dirt? Estuary water often is salty as well (not just sweet), and dirty. Not an accurate description<ref>[https://oceanservice.noaa.gov/education/tutorial_estuaries/est01_whatis.html#:~:text=The%20mixture%20of%20seawater%20and,%2C%20weather%2C%20or%20other%20factors. What is an Estuary?] National Ocean Service. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration</ref> - delete? | |||
#The sea isn't permanently there, they completely change over time. Even the estuaries didn't exist when the Earth was made, so God letting the two bodies going free and a permanent barrier if false. | |||
'''<br />What it doesn't say''' | '''<br />What it doesn't say''' | ||
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Density of salt water is more than freshwater. This was first discovered by Aristotle. “The drinkable, sweet water, then, is light and is all of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.” -Aristotle (382 BC to 322 BC)<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref> But not like Water and oil which are immiscible (i.e. they don't mix). | |||
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Figure 13: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)}} | Figure 13: The Mediterranean sea water as it enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics, because of the barrier that distinguishes between them. Temperatures are in degrees Celsius (C°). (Marine Geology, Kuenen, p. 43, with a slight enhancement.) (Click on the image to enlarge it.)}} | ||
===== Problems with miracle claim and general science ===== | |||
* Leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two 'seas' | * Leap of faith to separate the sweet and salty seas from the other two 'seas' | ||
* verse 35:12 states ornaments for us to wear are from both seas, salty and sweet linking the coral and pearl this to the sweet and salty seas as repeated in verse 55:22, which coral also does not form in.. | * verse 35:12 states ornaments for us to wear are from both seas, salty and sweet linking the coral and pearl this to the sweet and salty seas as repeated in verse 55:22, which coral also does not form in.. | ||
* Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them implies this is for two specific seas, while this phenomena occurs in many places, even the North Atlantic, South Atlantic the Pacific Oceans have different salt levels.<ref>Joseph L. Reid, [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0146631361900442 On the temperature, salinity, and density differences between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in the upper kilometre,] Deep Sea Research (1953), Volume 7, Issue 4, 1961, Pages 265-275, ISSN 0146-6313, <nowiki>https://doi.org/10.1016/0146-6313(61)90044-2</nowiki></ref> | * Again, using the definite particle 'al' and barrier between them implies this is for two specific seas, while this phenomena occurs in many places, even the North Atlantic, South Atlantic the Pacific Oceans have different salt levels.<ref>Joseph L. Reid, [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0146631361900442 On the temperature, salinity, and density differences between the Atlantic and Pacific oceans in the upper kilometre,] Deep Sea Research (1953), Volume 7, Issue 4, 1961, Pages 265-275, ISSN 0146-6313, <nowiki>https://doi.org/10.1016/0146-6313(61)90044-2</nowiki></ref> | ||
* A sill https://www.britannica.com/science/sill. An aquatic sill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_sill (containing other examples of sills) | * A sill https://www.britannica.com/science/sill. An aquatic sill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_sill (containing other examples of sills) | ||
* For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing , this is not true, as Piers Chapman - Oceanography - Texas A&M University writes in Water Encyclopaedia Ocean Mixing http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Ocean-Mixing.html | * For the second point about the difference between the Atlantic and Mediterranean oceans not mixing, this is not true, as Piers Chapman - Oceanography - Texas A&M University writes in Water Encyclopaedia Ocean Mixing http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Ocean-Mixing.html | ||
*BBC Science focus article on Atlantic and Pacific oceans mixing, and that previous videos showing non-mixing are incorrect https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/is-it-true-that-the-pacific-and-atlantic-oceans-dont-mix | *BBC Science focus article on Atlantic and Pacific oceans mixing, and that previous videos showing non-mixing are incorrect https://www.sciencefocus.com/planet-earth/is-it-true-that-the-pacific-and-atlantic-oceans-dont-mix | ||
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*Scientific claim - Quran says absolutely nothing about different densities, hence no-one ever thought it did until many years after the discovery - Scientist William Hayes denouncing miracle claim (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eziurUGGens&list=PLC0D4187BE2661850&index=2) | *Scientific claim - Quran says absolutely nothing about different densities, hence no-one ever thought it did until many years after the discovery - Scientist William Hayes denouncing miracle claim (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eziurUGGens&list=PLC0D4187BE2661850&index=2) | ||
== Historical context - Moses and Al-Khidr == | |||
=== Antiquity interpretation === | |||
Other classical interpretations - Ptolemy's view? | |||
There is another interpretation for this verse which many critics argue is the only one to accurately fit this verse on a literal reading (which there appears to be no reason it shouldn't be as God's word), which we will discuss below in the historical context. Which fits a prevalent antiquity (and pre-antiquity) view which was present across this region, and is held in biblical cosmology and later Christian/Jewish exegesis, that this refers to a somewhat magical cosmic ocean surrounding the Earth. | |||
Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, critics argue that the verse in question is scientifically wrong. | Whether the two seas mentioned in the Qur'an referred to these mythological seas or a more general inviolable barrier between bodies of salt and fresh water, critics argue that the verse in question is scientifically wrong. | ||
Mention the two main articles from Western scholar articles - this has been examine heavily by Tomo Tesei? | |||
=== The two seas in Islamic literature === | === The two seas in Islamic literature === | ||
{{Quote|{{Quran|18|65-81}}|18:65 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge. | Aftre {{Quran|18|60}} says he won't give up until he reaches the two seas, or has progressed for many years/ages, implying this sea unction is extremely far from any land. Arabic word used for years. | ||
{{Quote|{{Quran|18|60}}|(Consider) when Moses said to his young companion, "I shall continue travelling until I reach the junction of the two seas or have travelled for many years".}} | |||
'''(is Moses story necessary if he is already there?) not coming from the two seas? Only he will stop''' - remove long unnecessary section if it doesn't add anything{{Quote|{{Quran|18|65-81}}|18:65 And they found a servant from among Our servants to whom we had given mercy from us and had taught him from Us a [certain] knowledge. | |||
18:66 Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?” | 18:66 Moses said to him, “May I follow you on [the condition] that you teach me from what you have been taught of sound judgement?” | ||
18:67 He said, “Indeed, with me you will never be able to have patience. | 18:67 He said, “Indeed, with me you will never be able to have patience. | ||
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18:79 As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working at sea. So I intended to cause defect in it as there was after them a king who seized every [good] ship by force. | 18:79 As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working at sea. So I intended to cause defect in it as there was after them a king who seized every [good] ship by force. | ||
18:80 And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief. | 18:80 And as for the boy, his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them by transgression and disbelief. | ||
18:81 So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.}}Hadith | 18:81 So we intended that their Lord should substitute for them one better than him in purity and nearer to mercy.}} | ||
In this story Moses goes with a 'servant of God' at the junction of the two seas, who is unnamed in the Qur'an but called 'Al-Khidr' in the Hadith. This man has extremely accurate foreknowledge of both future events and human nature ([[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Predestination|predestination]]), so he carries out seemingly strange immoral and tasks and asks Moses not to ask him about them - however Moses does, so after three events Al-Khidr parts ways with him and tells him why he committed the acts. He made a hole in the boat so it couldn't | |||
This verse is expanded upon here: {{Bukhari|4|55|613}} | |||
* Someone who has this foresight inclusion - future events and human nature ([[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Predestination|predestination]]) (ship sinking, boy becoming an unbeliever, orphans finding treasure) makes sense coming from god's sea - and disappears there after Moses keeps asking questions - this makes sense with them coming from a supernatural cosmic ocean | * Someone who has this foresight inclusion - future events and human nature ([[Qur'an, Hadith and Scholars:Predestination|predestination]]) (ship sinking, boy becoming an unbeliever, orphans finding treasure) makes sense coming from god's sea - and disappears there after Moses keeps asking questions - this makes sense with them coming from a supernatural cosmic ocean | ||
* | * | ||
* the [[The Islamic Whale|Islamic whale]] swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back | * the [[The Islamic Whale|Islamic whale]] swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back | ||
* (put this section below the Islamic views part)? | * (put this section below the Islamic views part)? | ||