Semen Production in the Quran: Difference between revisions

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{{Quote||Note that 'sulb' is *singular*. In the dictionary by Wehr you cite below, you will see that its meaning of backbone is *only* when we take the *plural* word of sulb (aslaab). In its singular form, it means hardening.}}
{{Quote||Note that 'sulb' is *singular*. In the dictionary by Wehr you cite below, you will see that its meaning of backbone is *only* when we take the *plural* word of sulb (aslaab). In its singular form, it means hardening.}}


Almost all the commonly available translations of the Qur'an refer to ''sulb'' as the backbone, though some refer to loins. Even Ibn Kathir accepts backbone. Wehr, as a dictionary of modern standard Arabic, is a less useful source for determining the meanings of words in the Qur'an than is Tafsir Ibn Kathir.  
Almost all the commonly available translations of the Qur'an refer to ''sulb'' as the backbone, though some refer to loins. Even Ibn Kathir accepts backbone. Wehr, as a dictionary of modern standard Arabic, is a less reliable source for determining the meanings of words in the Qur'an than is Tafsir Ibn Kathir.  


Abd-Allah’s proposition is undercut by the definitions of ''tara’ib'' he provides. He fails to show that the tafsirs and dictionaries explain ''tara’ib'' to mean vagina. ''Tara’ib'' is defined as the upper chest or ribs, or according to some sources can also mean the two legs, two arms or two eyes<ref name="Lane Lexicon taraib">tara'ib - [http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000338.pdf Lane's Lexicon Book 1 page 301]</ref>. While erogenous zones are important in foreplay, the sexual act must be consummated through the vagina.  
Abd-Allah’s proposition is undercut by the definitions of ''tara’ib'' he provides. He does not show that the tafsirs and dictionaries explain ''tara’ib'' to mean vagina. ''Tara’ib'' is defined as the upper chest or ribs, or according to some sources can also mean the two legs, two arms or two eyes<ref name="Lane Lexicon taraib">tara'ib - [http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000338.pdf Lane's Lexicon Book 1 page 301]</ref>. While erogenous zones are important in foreplay, the sexual act must be consummated through the vagina.  


Abd-Allah’s reference to Ibn Kathir’s tafsir also appears disingenuous, as only the one half of the description which supports his case is mentioned (i.e. ''tara’ib'' refers to the woman), while the other half that contradicts it is excluded (i.e. ''tara’ib'' is the woman’s ribs).
Abd-Allah’s reference to Ibn Kathir’s tafsir also appears disingenuous, as he includes only the one half of the description which supports his case (i.e. that ''tara’ib'' refers to the woman) and excludes the other half that contradicts it (i.e. that ''tara’ib'' is the woman’s ribs).


===Zakir Naik===
===Zakir Naik===
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In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of the male and female, i.e. the testicles and the ovaries, begin their development near the kidney between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs. Later they descend; the female gonads (ovaries) stop in the pelvis while the male gonads (testicles) continue their descent before birth to reach the scrotum through the inguinal canal. Even in the adult after the descent of the reproductive organ, these organs receive their nerve supply and blood supply from the Abdominal Aorta, which is in the area between the backbone (spinal column) and the ribs. Even the lymphatic drainage and the venous return goes to the same area.}}
In embryonic stages, the reproductive organs of the male and female, i.e. the testicles and the ovaries, begin their development near the kidney between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs. Later they descend; the female gonads (ovaries) stop in the pelvis while the male gonads (testicles) continue their descent before birth to reach the scrotum through the inguinal canal. Even in the adult after the descent of the reproductive organ, these organs receive their nerve supply and blood supply from the Abdominal Aorta, which is in the area between the backbone (spinal column) and the ribs. Even the lymphatic drainage and the venous return goes to the same area.}}


Naik’s embryology is askew. The original position of the cells destined to develop into spermatogonia (sperm producing cells) is not ventro-medial to the kidneys (where they undoubtedly develop) but in the wall of the yolk sac:
The biology presented here is incorrect. The original position of the cells destined to develop into spermatogonia (sperm producing cells) is not ventro-medial to the kidneys (where they develop) but in the wall of the yolk sac:


{{Quote||
{{Quote||
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The primordial germ cells form in the wall of the yolk sac during week 4. They later migrate into the developing gonads at week 6 and differentiate into the definitive germ cells (oogonia / spermatogonia).<ref>{{cite web|url= http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/duong/EMBRYOL.html|title= Urogenital system embryology|publisher= Indiana University School of Medicine|author= Taihung Duong, Ph.D.|date= accessed February 9, 2014|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.indstate.edu%2Fthcme%2Fduong%2FEMBRYOL.html&date=2014-02-09|deadurl=no}}</ref>}}  
The primordial germ cells form in the wall of the yolk sac during week 4. They later migrate into the developing gonads at week 6 and differentiate into the definitive germ cells (oogonia / spermatogonia).<ref>{{cite web|url= http://web.indstate.edu/thcme/duong/EMBRYOL.html|title= Urogenital system embryology|publisher= Indiana University School of Medicine|author= Taihung Duong, Ph.D.|date= accessed February 9, 2014|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fweb.indstate.edu%2Fthcme%2Fduong%2FEMBRYOL.html&date=2014-02-09|deadurl=no}}</ref>}}  


Even if Naik’s assertion that the verse refers to the embryonic testes is accepted, it is unclear whether the gonads are located where he claims, i.e. between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs.  
If Naik’s assertion that the verse refers to the embryonic testes is accepted, it is not evident whether the gonads are located where he claims, i.e. between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs.  


This cross-sectional diagram of the human embryo shows the gonads at or around the level of the placenta:
This cross-sectional diagram of the human embryo shows the gonads at or around the level of the placenta:
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<center>[[Image:Gondev154.gif]]</center>
<center>[[Image:Gondev154.gif]]</center>


Thus, it is not strictly true that the embryonic testes is located specifically between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs as the gonadal or genital ridge (precursor of the gonads) is commonly believed to lie medial to the lower part of the mesonephros, while the adult kidney actually develops from the metanephros.
As a result, it is not correct that the embryonic testes is located specifically between the spinal column and the eleventh and twelfth ribs as the gonadal or genital ridge (precursor of the gonads) is commonly believed to lie medial to the lower part of the mesonephros, while the adult kidney actually develops from the metanephros.


It is incorrect to assume the position of the embryonic gonads from the position of the adult kidneys, as the embryonic positions of gonads and kidneys are not the same as their adult positions. Gonads descend, while kidneys enlarge and ascend. It should also be noted that the developing gonads are ventro-medial to the mesonephros (i.e. the embryonic kidney) and not the metanephros (which would develop into the adult kidney). Hence it would seem that Zakir Naik does not know the embryology of the urogenital system and cannot differentiate between the mesonephros and the metanephros.
It is incorrect to assume the position of the embryonic gonads from the position of the adult kidneys, as the embryonic positions of gonads and kidneys are not the same as their adult positions. Gonads descend, while kidneys enlarge and ascend. It should also be noted that the developing gonads are ventro-medial to the mesonephros (i.e. the embryonic kidney) and not the metanephros (which would develop into the adult kidney). Zakir Naik's explanation does not differentiate between the mesonephros and the metanephros.


Even if Naik’s implied association between embryonic and adult anatomical positions were to be accepted, he is also wrong because in the condition of cryptorchidism where the testes is undescended, the highest position of the undescended testes is ''below'' the kidney.<ref>[http://www.nakshatras.net/genetics_basics.htm genetics basics]</ref>
If Naik’s implied association between embryonic and adult anatomical positions were nonetheless accepted, the explanation is inaccurate because in the condition of cryptorchidism where the testes is undescended, the highest position of the undescended testes is ''below'' the kidney.<ref>[http://www.nakshatras.net/genetics_basics.htm genetics basics]</ref>


Note that the inferior pole of the kidney lies around ''L3'' (the third lumbar vertebra), thus the embryonic testes must be below ''L3''. The twelth rib does not extend below ''L2''. Since the testes are ''below'' the kidneys, there is no possibility that the testes were ever between the ribs and the backbone either in the embryonic or the adult (as with cryptorchidism) stage.
It should also be noted that the inferior pole of the kidney lies around ''L3'' (the third lumbar vertebra), such that the embryonic testes must be below ''L3''. The twelfth rib does not extend below ''L2''. And because the testes are ''below'' the kidneys, there is no possibility that the testes were ever between the ribs and the backbone either in the embryonic or the adult (as with cryptorchidism) stage.


It also seems disingenuous to interpret a ‘drop emitted, proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs’ to mean the embryonic development of the testes, as the ‘drop emitted’ suggests a fully developed and functional testes, rather than an embryonic structure. Embryonic testes do not emit, ejaculate, gush forth, pour forth, spurt or ejaculate any substance; only the peri- and post-pubertal testes do.
The interpretation of a ‘drop emitted, proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs’ to mean the embryonic development of the testes appears disingenuous, as the ‘drop emitted’ suggests a fully developed and functional testes, rather than an embryonic structure. Embryonic testes do not emit, ejaculate, gush forth, pour forth, spurt or ejaculate any substance; only peri- and post-pubertal testes do.


Naik’s explanation of the nerve, blood and lymphatic circular from the abdominal aorta is irrelevant and constitutes the logical fallacy of the red herring. This is because verse 85:6 speak about ‘a drop emitted’, commonly taken to mean semen and semen only, as this drop is directly responsible for human reproduction, something which cannot be claimed for nerve signals, blood or lymph. Further, circulation and nerve supply do not correlate with embryonic origin. For example, the blood supply, lymphatics and nerve supply of the lower limbs originate in the abdomen and pelvis. This does not mean the lower limbs embryonically originated in the abdomen and pelvis.
Naik’s explanation of the nerve, blood and lymphatic circular from the abdominal aorta is irrelevant and appears to serve as a red herring. Verse 85:6 speak about ‘a drop emitted’, commonly taken to mean semen and semen only, as this drop is directly responsible for human reproduction, something which cannot be claimed for nerve signals, blood or lymph. Circulation and nerve supply also do not correlate with embryonic origin. For example, the blood supply, lymphatics and nerve supply of the lower limbs originate in the abdomen and pelvis. This does not mean the lower limbs embryonically originated in the abdomen and pelvis.


===Jamal Badawi===
===Jamal Badawi===
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{{Quote||Badawi must assume that "gushing fluid poured forth" refers to the aorta which according to a book cited by him, Clinical Anatomy, supplies the testes and ovaries with the necessary nutrients and this is what the Quran refers to.<ref>{{cite web|url= http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/wonders.htm|title= A Christian Response to Dr. Jamal Badawi's "Seven Wonders of The Quran"|publisher= Answering-Islam|author= Sam Shamoun|date= accessed February 9, 2014|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/6NG3qZLdv|deadurl=no}}</ref>}}
{{Quote||Badawi must assume that "gushing fluid poured forth" refers to the aorta which according to a book cited by him, Clinical Anatomy, supplies the testes and ovaries with the necessary nutrients and this is what the Quran refers to.<ref>{{cite web|url= http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/wonders.htm|title= A Christian Response to Dr. Jamal Badawi's "Seven Wonders of The Quran"|publisher= Answering-Islam|author= Sam Shamoun|date= accessed February 9, 2014|archiveurl= http://www.webcitation.org/6NG3qZLdv|deadurl=no}}</ref>}}


Badawi’s proposition is proven to be in error with the same explanation given for Naik’s blood circulation proposition.
Badawi’s proposition repeats the error found in Naik’s proposition regarding blood circulation.


===Ibn Kathir===
===Ibn Kathir===
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:'Referring to the creation of man from a drop of fluid gushing forth from between the backbone and the ribs, Allah emphasizes the inherent weakness of man... Allah says that man has been created from a mix of seminal fluid of man which gushes forth from the backbone and the yellowish fluid of woman that flows from her ribs.'<ref>{{cite web|url= http://www.muhajabah.com/islamicblog/archives/a_quranic_journal/002121.php|title= A Quranic Journal: Surah at-Tariq ayah 7|publisher= Al-Muhajabah|author= |date= November 13, 2002|archiveurl= http://archive.is/UJp0t|deadurl=yes}}</ref>}}
:'Referring to the creation of man from a drop of fluid gushing forth from between the backbone and the ribs, Allah emphasizes the inherent weakness of man... Allah says that man has been created from a mix of seminal fluid of man which gushes forth from the backbone and the yellowish fluid of woman that flows from her ribs.'<ref>{{cite web|url= http://www.muhajabah.com/islamicblog/archives/a_quranic_journal/002121.php|title= A Quranic Journal: Surah at-Tariq ayah 7|publisher= Al-Muhajabah|author= |date= November 13, 2002|archiveurl= http://archive.is/UJp0t|deadurl=yes}}</ref>}}


Modern medical science has shown that semen does not emanate from the male’s backbone, nor do the female’s sexual secretions emanate from the ribs.
Semen does not emanate from the male’s backbone, nor do the female’s sexual secretions emanate from the ribs.


===Muhammad Asad===
===Muhammad Asad===
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<nowiki>*</nowiki> The plural noun tara'ib, ''''rendered by me''' as "pelvic arch", has also the meaning of "ribs" or "arch of bones"; according to most of the authorities who have specialized in the etymology of rare Quranic expressions this term relates specifically to female anatomy (Taj al-'Arus).}}  
<nowiki>*</nowiki> The plural noun tara'ib, ''''rendered by me''' as "pelvic arch", has also the meaning of "ribs" or "arch of bones"; according to most of the authorities who have specialized in the etymology of rare Quranic expressions this term relates specifically to female anatomy (Taj al-'Arus).}}  


Asad's own invented definition of ''tara’ib'' is not that it means the pelvis, but the pelvic arch which is a specific part of the pelvis. Even if this and Asad’s definition of ''sulb'' as the male loins (in the modern sense of the word loins, rather than its old and primary meaning of the lower back) is accepted, it is a stretch to accept that sexual reproduction is the consequence of a union between the male loins and the female pelvic arch. Moreover 'pelvic arch' is merely his own speculative definition of tara'ib (he says, "rendered by me") and he doesn't even give any evidence that tara'ib can mean 'arch of bones'. Its actual meaning is the upper ribs<ref name="Lane Lexicon taraib"></ref>.
Asad's definition of ''tara’ib'' takes it to refer to the pelvic arch which is a specific part of the pelvis, however this definition is nowhere evidenced (Asad says the word is "rendered by me"). Dictionaries define ''tara'ib'' as the upper ribs.<ref name="Lane Lexicon taraib" />
 
If Asad's definition of ''sulb'' as the male loins (in the modern sense of the word loins, rather than its old and primary meaning of the lower back) as well as his definition of ''tara'ib'' are accepted, his proposition that sexual reproduction is the consequence of a union between the male loins and the female pelvic arch is again inaccurate.


====Hamza Tzortzis====
====Hamza Tzortzis====
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{{Quote||The word tara’ib means breastbone, the ribs or the pelvic arch, and this word according to most authors refers specifically to women.}}
{{Quote||The word tara’ib means breastbone, the ribs or the pelvic arch, and this word according to most authors refers specifically to women.}}


Hamza Tzortzis has an article on his website in which he has misunderstood what Muhammad Asad said, implying that the pelvic arch definition comes from Taj al-Arus, which he cites directly for this claim along with Asad. Hamza has made a mistake, and is even aware of this fact (having ignored private messages pointing this out, and having withdrawn a lengthy paper with the same claim after it was comprehensively debunked<ref>[http://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.com Embryology in the Qur'an Much Ado about Nothing]</ref>). As pointed out above, pelvic arch is merely Asad's own definiton of the word.
Hamza Tzortzis, on his website, repeats Muhammad Asad's perspective while implying that the pelvic arch ''definition'' comes from Taj al-Arus, which he cites directly for this claim. Asad sought only to evidence the relationship of the word ''tara'ib'' to "female anatomy" by citing Taj al-Arus, while providing the definition of "pelvic arch" himself. Tzortzis, repeatedly made aware of this error, ultimately withdrew his lengthy paper.<ref>[http://embryologyinthequran.blogspot.com Embryology in the Qur'an Much Ado about Nothing]</ref>


===Moiz Amjad===
===Moiz Amjad===
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1. Sulb and tara’ib refer to the blood supply of the testes emanating from between the man’s back and ribs.
1. Sulb and tara’ib refer to the blood supply of the testes emanating from between the man’s back and ribs.


This proposition is proven to be in error with the same explanation given to Naik.
This proposition repeats the error found in Naik’s proposition regarding blood circulation.


2. The embryonic gonads originate in the area (as per Zakir Naik).
2. The embryonic gonads originate in the area (as per Zakir Naik).


This proposition is proven to be in error with the same explanation given to Naik.
This proposition repeats the error found in Naik’s general proposition.


3. The ''sulb'' and ''tara’ib'' region is an euphemism for the male sexual organ.
3. The ''sulb'' and ''tara’ib'' region is a euphemism for the male sexual organ.


Amjad attempts to show this by drawing lines on pictures of a human skeleton. However, any line can enclose any human organ if that line is drawn on the surface of the body.  
Amjad argues this point by drawing lines on pictures of a human skeleton, so that all parts of the body lying between the relevant bones and the opposing surface of the body are included.  


Similarly, arguments claiming that the ''sulb'' and ''tara’ib'' is a euphemism for both the male and female sexual organs make little sense. There are better euphemisms for sexual organs than two other unrelated human organs, since sperm never flows between seperate organs; wherever it is, it always flows inside a single organ.
Amjad also argues that the ''sulb'' and ''tara’ib'' are euphemisms for the male and female sexual organs. There exist in Arabic, however, numerous other, more direct euphemisms for these two organs, and ''sulb'' and ''tara'ib'' are no where else used euphemistically in this sense. Additionally, since sperm never flows between separate organs, and always flows inside a single organ, it is very strange that the Qur'an should make an unclear euphemistic reference to two organs in order to refer to just one of those organs, which could easily and clearly been described directly or through various, clear euphemisms.


===Tahir Ul-Qadri===
===Tahir Ul-Qadri===
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Arabic words like many other languages often carry more than one meaning of a single word. For instance the Arabic word ‘salat’ has 60 meanings. ... Moreover the seminal passages do indeed lie between the sacrum referred to as sulb in the Qurā’nic verse and the symphisis pubis referred to as tarā’ib. }}
Arabic words like many other languages often carry more than one meaning of a single word. For instance the Arabic word ‘salat’ has 60 meanings. ... Moreover the seminal passages do indeed lie between the sacrum referred to as sulb in the Qurā’nic verse and the symphisis pubis referred to as tarā’ib. }}


There is no evidence whatsoever that ''tara'ib'' can be translated as [[w:pubic symphysis|pubic symphysis]] (see the Muhammad Asad section above). Even if Qadri's claim of a single word having a large number of meanings were true and applicable in this case, ''tara'ib'' would have meant many organs other than the pubic symphisis. Those organs would have no relationship with the place where semen flows. It is a typical [[w:Texas sharpshooter fallacy|Texas sharpshooter fallacy]] to focus only on the similarities between two sets of information and draw a conclusion while ignoring the differences. Qadri also ignores the testicles which produce the essential sperms. They are not situated in the zone he mentioned but below the symphisis.<ref>See images here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gray1156.png] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gray1136.png] []</ref>
There is no evidence that ''tara'ib'' can be translated as [[w:pubic symphysis|pubic symphysis]] (see the Muhammad Asad section above). If Qadri's claim of a single word having a large number of meanings were true and applicable in this case, ''tara'ib'' could be taken to refer to many organs other than the pubic symphisis, which have no relationship with the place where semen flows. This appears to be a [[w:Texas sharpshooter fallacy|Texas sharpshooter fallacy]], where the focus is only on the similarities between two sets of information so that a conclusion can be drawn while ignoring the differences. Qadri, in his analysis, also ignores the testicles which produce the essential sperms. These are not situated in the zone mentioned, and are rather below the symphisis.<ref>See images here [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gray1156.png] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gray1136.png] []</ref>


===Yusuf Ali===
===Yusuf Ali===
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