The Islamic Whale: Difference between revisions

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The Islamic Whale (view source)

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*The word Ar-Rahman is nowadays actually written as الرحمان, but in the old Uthmani script it was written without the ا (alif) before the ن. It was added later, to indicate the "aa" vowel.
*The word Ar-Rahman is nowadays actually written as الرحمان, but in the old Uthmani script it was written without the ا (alif) before the ن. It was added later, to indicate the "aa" vowel.
*A lot of verses start on other [[Muqatta'at|letters]] however and no convincing argument can be made for producing relevant words from most of them.  
*A lot of verses start on other [[Muqatta'at|letters]] however and no convincing argument can be made for producing relevant words from most of them.


===Nun means "ink"===
===Nun means "ink"===
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*The Qur'an used the word مِدَادًا (''midaadan'') for "ink" in the verse 18:109, while it used the word نون (''nun'') to mean "whale" in the verse 21:87. So it is more probable, that the meaning of nun here is "whale".
*The Qur'an used the word مِدَادًا (''midaadan'') for "ink" in the verse 18:109, while it used the word نون (''nun'') to mean "whale" in the verse 21:87. So it is more probable, that the meaning of nun here is "whale".
*According to this interpretation, this refers to the ink with which the Qur'an was written. Which is not very fitting, since the primary form of the Qu'ran is recitation according to the traditional narrative. The word "Qur'an" itself means "recitation" in the traditional understanding. It should also be noted, however, that the word Qur'an may have a Syriac antecedent in the word "Qeryaanaa", meaning a lectionary, the book of scripture readings in traditional Christian masses. With this understanding the meaning of "ink" might make more sense.  
*According to this interpretation, this refers to the ink with which the Qur'an was written. Which is not very fitting, since the primary form of the Qu'ran is recitation according to the traditional narrative. The word "Qur'an" itself means "recitation" in the traditional understanding. It should also be noted, however, that the word Qur'an may have a Syriac antecedent in the word "Qeryaanaa", meaning a lectionary, the book of scripture readings in traditional Christian masses. With this understanding the meaning of "ink" might make more sense.


==="Allah knows best"===
==="Allah knows best"===
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Allaah Knows best
Allaah Knows best
}}
}}
*The whale interpretation spread widely among the scholars and none of them discredited this story in any way.
*The whale story is not a matter of the unseen. It should be observable if you look for it beneath the Islamic [[flat earth]].
*Ibn Abbas was against taking information from People of the book <ref>''Narrated Ubaidullah:''
Ibn `Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Qur'an) which has been revealed to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"'' {{Bukhari|9|92|460}}, book 96, chapter '''"Do not ask the people of the Scripture about anything"'''''</ref>
*Muhammad asked Allah to teach Ibn Abbas the correct interpretation of the Quran, so the interpretation should be from Allah himself.


===Only the early scholars believed it===
===Only the early scholars believed it===
As we've seen, the scholar Shawkani, who was born more than a thousand years after Muhammad's death, still wrote about the whale. So it's not just a matter of the early scholars.
It's sometimes claimed that only early scholars believed this, a strange claim considering that antiquity usually validates rather than invalidates views and doctrines in Islamic theology and jurisprudence. However this view of the earth-bearing was mentioned even by Shawkani writing in the year 1835 CE wrote about the flat Earth on the back of a giant whale.


*About a century later after Shawkani wrote about the flat Earth on the back of a giant whale, non-Muslims from Russia managed to escape the round Earth and land on the Moon.
===Origin of the Story from the Jews===
 
There are some modern claims that this story/doctrine comes from Judaism. Neither the Bible, Talmud, targums, Mishnah or any other Jewish text mentions the idea of the earth-bearing whale. There is, tho, a myth of a big sea monster called "Leviathan" in the Bible:
===It's from the Jews===
The Quran was new to the Jews, so interpretation of the Quran couldn't be from the Jewish tradition. But there is a myth of a big sea monster called "Leviathan" in Judaism and Christianity:
{{Quote|Isiah 27:1|
{{Quote|Isiah 27:1|
In that day,
In that day,
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It's not clear whether it is a whale or a dolphin or a crocodile. It was also described as a dragon and serpent. There are many different interpretations. In Judaism Leviathan is sometimes understood metaphorically as a great enemy of Israel. In Christianity Leviathan is sometimes understood as Satan. The Torah nor the Bible say that Leviathan holds the earth on its back, but there is a rabbinic text saying that Leviathan is a flying serpent who has "middle bar of the earth" between its fins:
It's not clear whether it is a whale or a dolphin or a crocodile (although the word is construed in modern Hebrew to mean "whale", but this has no necessary implication for the word in the time of Isaiah). It was also described as a dragon and serpent. There are many different interpretations. In Judaism Leviathan is sometimes understood metaphorically as a great enemy of Israel. In Christianity Leviathan is sometimes understood as Satan. The Torah nor the Bible say that Leviathan holds the earth on its back, but there is a rabbinic text saying that Leviathan is a flying serpent who has "middle bar of the earth" between its fins:
{{Quote|Pirke De-Rabbi Eliezer (Ch. 9)|
{{Quote|Pirke De-Rabbi Eliezer (Ch. 9)|
On the fifth day He brought forth from the water the Leviathan, the flying serpent, and its dwelling is in the the lowest waters; and between its fins rests the middle bar of the earth.
On the fifth day He brought forth from the water the Leviathan, the flying serpent, and its dwelling is in the the lowest waters; and between its fins rests the middle bar of the earth.
}}
}}


So maybe the Islamic whale myth is based on one of the interpretations of the myth of Leviathan. But "It's from the Jews" is not an argument, because many Islamic teachings are inspired by Judaism. And Ibn Abbas, the ''turjuman ul-Qur'an'', is the one who interprets the Quran in this way.
Insofar as the Leviathan is interpreted as being a whale, it is possible that this was the origin of the myth. The entirety of the myth itself though does not appear to be Jewish in origin, rather being an obvious Islam accretion.  


===Ibn Abbas narrated it from Jews, but didn't believe it===
===Ibn Abbas narrated it from Jews, but didn't believe it===
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*The Islam Issue - [https://theislamissue.wordpress.com/2019/04/02/the-nun-whale-and-the-calamity-of-ibn-abbas/ The Nun Whale and the calamity of Ibn Abbas] (blog)
*The Islam Issue - [https://theislamissue.wordpress.com/2019/04/02/the-nun-whale-and-the-calamity-of-ibn-abbas/ The Nun Whale and the calamity of Ibn Abbas] (blog)
*[[Scientific Errors in the Quran]]
*[[Scientific Errors in the Quran]]
Apologetics and responses:
*Zaify's article [https://medium.com/@galacticwarrior9/the-islamic-whale-debunked-1bc3a922b845 “The Islamic Whale” - debunked]
**''"The argument attempts to prove that the Qur’an implies the Earth is carried on the back of a whale."''
***No, the main point is that Muslims understood it that way.
**''"...the matter at hand is a narration from Ibn Abbas rather than a direct claim made by a mufassir."''
***Ibn Abbas IS a mufassir.
**''"Ijtihad means independent reasoning."''
***The Quran and the hadiths are the basis for reasoning of a Muslim. In Islam the Earth is flat. So within this ideology, it IS reasonable to expect something to hold the Earth.
**''"...an example where Ibn Abbas narrates contradicting Isra’iliyat reports regarding the dimensions of Noah’s Ark..."''
***Why he didn't say both versions in both narrations? It seems more likely that he narrated one version, but one of the hadith was corrupted.
**''"Nobody is criticising Ka’b al-Ahbar - or Ibn Abbas for that matter - for narrating Isra’iliyat. Rather, we are castigating those present the Isra’iliyat as narrations from the Prophet (ﷺ) or opinions of the companions, and so say that they must be believed by Muslims."''
***But this is about the interpretation of the Quran and Muhammad made dua for Ibn Abbas, so that he can know the correct interpretation. Did the dua not work? And if it worked, why Ibn Abbas didn't oppose The Islamic Whale hypothesis if it was a wrong interpretation?
**''"Nun (ن), is known in Arabic as one of the muqatta’at... their meaning is only known to Allah."''
***So how can you be sure that it doesn't mean whale?
**''"The spelling of the two Nuns are different; they are only similar in pronounciation."''
***No. They are exactly the same in pronunciation. The letter ن ("n") standing by itself is read as نون ("nun").
**''"A comparison can be made with the English words hear and here. Although they sound identical, they have different meanings. It is not logical to claim that they have the same meaning because they have the same pronounciation."''
***But we do NOT have ن and نون written differently by Muhammad or Ibn Abbas and then claiming that these differently spelled words have the same meaning. It was transmitted orally and it was pronounced "nun" in both cases. And how some people, dozens of years later, chose to write these orally transmitted traditions, is irrelevant.


{{Translation-links-english|[[Islámská velryba|Czech]]}}
{{Translation-links-english|[[Islámská velryba|Czech]]}}
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