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::::::::::::::: I'm working on a section for the FGM page on 'modern fatwas concerning FGM', but I think there are too many for me to include anything more than a selection. I think it would be good to have a page devoted to fatwas concerning FGM. I'd probably include 'traditional' fatwas on that page, as I don't have that many (11) and some are quite brief. Do you think we could create such a page? It'll help me organise my materials if I can 'shunt' the bulk of the fatwas onto that page and include a link to it in the relevant section. | ::::::::::::::: I'm working on a section for the FGM page on 'modern fatwas concerning FGM', but I think there are too many for me to include anything more than a selection. I think it would be good to have a page devoted to fatwas concerning FGM. I'd probably include 'traditional' fatwas on that page, as I don't have that many (11) and some are quite brief. Do you think we could create such a page? It'll help me organise my materials if I can 'shunt' the bulk of the fatwas onto that page and include a link to it in the relevant section. | ||
::::::::::::::: Thanks for uploading the images. Could you upload the following for me please? https:// | ::::::::::::::: Thanks for uploading the images. Could you upload the following for me please? | ||
:::::::::::::::: Sure, np. One thing to note: I haven't read your sandbox article but if you want to give a citation for the definition of badhr, you would need to provide a definition at least roughly contemporary to the text in question for it to useful. You can check the dictionaries [http://lexicon.quranic-research.net/data/04_v/006_vbt.html here] and [http://ejtaal.net/ here] for a more legitimate source in that regard. For the latter of the two pages I linked, be sure to pick out a dictionary that is appropriate (you can google their names to see what they are good for. e.g. Hans Wehr is a modern arabic dictionary, and thus cannot be used to understand classical texts. Lane's Lexicon and Lisan al-Arab, by contrast and for instance, are classical dictionaries, and can thus be used to that end). You can still use google translate for definitions of arabic terms in modern arabic, which can still be very relevant, but just be aware of the classical/modern distinction. If I recall correctly from when I checked, the definition of badhr has changed over time and has frequently been ambiguous in its usage. Here are your images: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Glyph1.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Googletransbadhr.png, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Polygamy-fgm.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Fgmflyer-mozlem-brotherhood.jpg [[User:IbnPinker|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker|talk]]) 19:44, 29 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::: Thanks IbnPinker - re 'badhr' - thank you for the links to Lane and ejtaal - it'll be interesting to see what they return. The section where I was thinking of using the image is one in which I deal with what appears to be a deliberate and unjustified bowdlerization of the word. I've included links to several on-line arab-english dictionaries, but none with the authority of Lane. On reflection, maybe the google translate and the accompanying image is a bit frivolous - a 'gotcha' for the internet age, if I'm going to include a screenshot, one from Lane will certainly be much more authoritative [[User:Flynnjed|Flynnjed]] ([[User talk:Flynnjed|talk]]) 04:12, 30 March 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::: Could you (IbnPinker or Asmith or anyone else high up in WikiIslam) have a look at what I'm working on in my Sandbox (Female Genital Mutilation in Islamic Law)? I'm starting to see light at the end of the tunnel, but it's gotten really huge and I feel that I need someone to respond to it and make suggestions. Or just to stop me! | |||
:::::::::::::::::: I feel that everything in it is justified, but I can also understand that 1/ it's too long 2/ that some sections may not be appropriate to either that particular page or even to WikiIslam in general (does WikiIslam do the sociology of Islam? My degree is in Sociology so I can't help but think it's a vital perspective). Personally I like it all on a single page, as each section builds on facts and concepts dealt with in previous sections, but I'm certainly open to some sections being transferred to other pages. | |||
:::::::::::::::::: And before I forget - could you upload the following images please? | |||
::::::::::::::::::: Here are the files: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Niqab-eyes-hijab-niqab.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Niqab_pair.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Infibexzision.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Infibexzisionplus.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Infibmap_correct20111.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Indonesia-religion-fgm-map-reworked.jpg | |||
::::::::::::::::::: Excellent work on the article. I haven't had a chance to take a close look at it yet but can see you compiled a lot of good references, which is wonderful. Asmith and I are busy cleaning up some stuff on the QHS articles atm and it is relatively high priority that we finish that this weekend. I'll read through your article more closely on Monday. Meanwhile I'm going to poke Asmith about getting you on the discord so that we can discuss the article later in a more convenient way. In any case, you've done more than your part at this point - so, if you'd like to take a break, that's fine. I'll read your article and we can discuss it on Monday, hopefully over discord. Have a nice weekend! [[User:IbnPinker|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker|talk]]) 23:40, 2 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::::::: I tried sending you an email from the WikiIslam admin address, see if you received it. [[User:IbnPinker|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker|talk]]) 00:00, 3 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::: Thanks, IbnPinker. I've joined the Discord group, but I'm new to Discord and am not sure how things work (a recurring experience for me...) - I'll blunder around in my usual fashion and see what happens. | |||
::::::::::::::::::::: >"so, if you'd like to take a break, that's fine" - I'll press on - I've got a following wind and am keen to make the most of it while it blows. | |||
::::::::::::::::::::: >"can see you compiled a lot of good references" - there could be a lot more - much of what I've written is from memory, so I was thinking of adding a lot of references later that are buried somewhere in various books, notebooks and hurriedly book-marked URLs. But I'm also aware that there can be too many references - it's one of the things I need a bit of guidance over. Anyway, we can discuss that over at Discord. I'll send you a message on Discord. | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::: could you upload the following images, please? | |||
::::::::::::::::::::::: Here you are: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Sudan_prevalence_graph-1.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Guinea-1.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Djibouti-1.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Tanzania-1.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Liberia_prevalence_graph-1.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Ethiopia-1.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Eritrea-1.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Benin-1.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Somaliland-1.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Senegal-1.jpg | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::::: sorry to be a pain...I'm wanting to use the 'slideshow' display mode for the above graphs - but it looks really big and clunky. I suspect that smaller image sizes might improve the presentation, so I've resized the graphs. Could you upload the following resized versions? If you want to delete the previous set feel free. | |||
::::::::::::::::::::::::: I think I'm ready to start redistributing material to the three pages we talked about - QHS:FGM / FGM in Islam / FGM in Islamic law. Could you create the first two pages please? There's still some 'polishing' to do, but I think I will do that best as I go along. | |||
:::::::::::::::::::::::::: I replaced the files at the old links with the new ones, so that slideshow should just automatically update. You can access the new images at each of the same links. Here are the three pages: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Female_Genital_Mutilation_in_Islam, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Female_Genital_Mutilation_in_Islamic_Law, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Female_Genital_Mutilation [[User:IbnPinker|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker|talk]]) 17:50, 10 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::::::::::::: Thanks IbnPinker. I think the slideshow looks better at the new size - but still a bit clunky, but I can live with it... | |||
: Hey, you posted the same text for the FGM and FGM in islamic law pages? Those need to be two separate articles with separate leads that simply link to one another. I can arrange for another call to clarify if that helps? Or are you planning to just start with the same text and then work on it in either place to two separate products? If so, maybe I should not have accepted the edits just yet? If you still need to prepare the articles separately I created another sandbox for you, which you can use for the second article and can remove the content from the real pages just for the time being: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Flynnjed/Sandbox2 [[User:IbnPinker|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker|talk]]) 18:35, 11 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
:: upon closer look, I see they are not the same but that the FGM in Islam also contains all that is on FGM in Islamic law. The articles don't need to overlap in that way. The stuff on FGM in Islamic law should merely be summarized for the FGM in Islam article, which will also contain a link to the FGM in Islamic law page for those who want more details. [[User:IbnPinker|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker|talk]]) 18:38, 11 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
::: - thanks for the second sandbox - since the pages probably require more than one session to complete, it's what I needed, but hadn't thought of requesting. The 'FGM in Islam' page is not ready for publishing - I copy/pasted it from my sandbox and was going to reduce down the sections we discussed. I feel that I'd completed most of the work on 'FGM in Islamic law' - but was going to try cut the lead down as it feels too long. I'll try to work as much as possible in the Sandbox, but somehow, psychologically, flaws become more salient when the text is set up on the destination page - so there's always additional polishing to be done even then. Maybe I can let you know in the discussion page when I feel a page is ready to be published? or is that making unnecessary complications?[[User:Flynnjed|Flynnjed]] ([[User talk:Flynnjed|talk]]) 04:21, 12 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::: do you think this image is suitable for the FGM in Islam page? or maybe the other two pages? I know it's a bit 'in your face' but it clearly illustrates what's at the nub of the whole issue ... | |||
::::: That image is extremely helpful and should be included - I was actually thinking to request that you include something exactly like this since most guys have a poor understanding of this anatomy. Here is the image: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:712px-fgc_types-ii.svg_.jpg | |||
::::: Feel free to make your edits on the sandbox/live pages as needed. My only request is that you keep the live FGM in Islam and FGM in Islamic law pages distinct enough to avoid confusing visitors. If you want to just remove the content from the live pages until that can be achieved, that might be a good idea. My apologies that you have not received regular editing privileges yet, I am currently pestering the relevant admin to provide that to you. Finally, here is a third sandbox just in case it is of any use to you: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Flynnjed/Sandbox3 [[User:IbnPinker|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker|talk]]) 17:49, 12 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::::: thanks for the third sandbox - it'll be useful as I'll be able to work on the three pages at once (often an improvement in formatting or phrasing for one page can be used for the other pages) without having to have one of them live. I'll remove the content from the 'FGM in Islam' page - as that's the one that probably needs the most work at the moment. I'll try to make the leads more distinct too - since that will what determines a page's first impression. [[User:Flynnjed|Flynnjed]] ([[User talk:Flynnjed|talk]]) 03:21, 13 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
::::::: could you upload this image please? | |||
::::::: Would you have a look at how I've formatted the fatwas section for the 'FGM in Islamic law page' (https://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Flynnjed/Sandbox3#Modern_Fatwas) - I've used the 'quote-text' template - which, I think, looks more elegant for massed quotations. I've also removed the category headings for the 'critical' fatwas' (which classified them according to the argument they were using) - as those categories only make sense on the 'FGM in Islam' page - where they co-ordinate with the 'debunking' section later on. I'm also going to more fully quote the critical fatwas. | |||
:::::::: Here you are: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Khamenei4.jpg | |||
:::::::: Removing the internal categorization for the critical fatwas section is a logical move for the reason you describe. As for the formatting, we should be able to stick with the standard quote template if the majority of these fatwas are moved to the QHS FGM pages where such bulk references belong (https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Female_Genital_Mutilation). This way the majority of the fatwas could be offloaded from this (non-QHS) FGM in Islamic Law page leaving only a representative sampling (say 3-4 fatwas from either perspective). That would be what we discussed. However, if you want to approach things differently, we can certainly reevaluate. Let me know what you think. [[User:IbnPinker|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker|talk]]) 16:51, 13 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
::::::::: That's fine - my sieve-like memory and the illegibility of my notes has meant that I've been going by the summary of pages you sent me from our discord meeting. But I've no objections to what you suggest. I'll get onto that tomorrow. [[User:Flynnjed|Flynnjed]] ([[User talk:Flynnjed|talk]]) 17:04, 13 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::: I think that 'QHS:FGM' (https://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Flynnjed/Sandbox2) and 'FGM in Islamic law' (https://wikiislam.net/wiki/User:Flynnjed/Sandbox3) might be complete. Would you give them a once-over? I don't mind you suggesting improvements as I'm kind of thinking of these three pages as being the steep learning-curve necessary whenever one starts a new project. I've included 6 favourable fatwas on the Islamic Law page (rather than the 3 or 4 you suggested) - the full section contains 32 and it didn't feel quite possible to distill them down to just 3 or 4. [[User:Flynnjed|Flynnjed]] ([[User talk:Flynnjed|talk]]) 13:56, 14 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::: I just scrolled through both of them and they look great. It isn't really an issue atm if these two pages seems somewhat similar - the point of the QHS page is to give a place to dump references, so if in the future anyone just wants to add another primary reference they can drop it off there without having to worry about integrating it into a regular article. This being the case, the two articles should evolve independently into more distinct entities in time. You can go ahead and post both articles into their actual pages at this point if you feel they are ready and can work from there. You should have auto-confirmed editing access at this point. [[User:IbnPinker|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker|talk]]) 17:22, 14 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::: I've really pared back the QHS: FGM page and published the two pages. I'm going to start working on the 'FGM in Islam' page'. However, I think that the title 'FGM in Islam' is not quite right - I'm wondering whether some other title like 'FGM: its Origins, History and Sociology' might better represent its contents and tempt more readers? [[User:Flynnjed|Flynnjed]] ([[User talk:Flynnjed|talk]]) 07:21, 15 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::: I've been looking at the QHS:FGM page and it occurs to me that there's something that needs improvement. If you go to the Hadith section (https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Female_Genital_Mutilation#Hadith) to where it says "To 'sit amidst four parts' of a woman is a euphemism for sexual intercourse" - it's not clear if the note applies to the previous quote or the subsequent one. Could the 'quote' template be adapted to include a 'notes' field, so it's clear to which quote a note applies? I appreciate that it's just a detail, and that any half-attentive reader will realise which quote the note applies to, but think it's a much about getting the feel and look of the content right - making the page more 'comfortable'. I'm guessing that adding a field after the 'source' field would do the job, but it's not apparent how this might be done. [[User:Flynnjed|Flynnjed]] ([[User talk:Flynnjed|talk]]) 07:21, 15 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::: Just thinking - wouldn't the 'FGM as un-Islamic' section be better at the end of the FGM in Islamic law section? rather than on the 'FGM in Islam' page - which is shaping up to be very much the History and Sociology of FGM? [[User:Flynnjed|Flynnjed]] ([[User talk:Flynnjed|talk]]) 04:12, 16 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::: I've just been working on the 'FGM as un-Islamic' section and am not so sure that it would fit at the end of the 'FGM in Islam page' (as suggested in the previous message). But nor does it doesn't fit at the end of the 'FGM in Islam' page (or whatever that page's name should be). Maybe 'FGM as un-Islamic' should have its own page? [[User:Flynnjed|Flynnjed]] ([[User talk:Flynnjed|talk]]) 18:17, 16 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::: Could you upload the following images please? I know that they are a bit much (I can't look at these without tearing-up) - but I'm wanting to clarify a subsidiary element of Islamic FGM -that anaesthetics are not used even when available because pain is part of FGM's functionality. [[User:Flynnjed|Flynnjed]] ([[User talk:Flynnjed|talk]]) 03:50, 17 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
:::::::::::::::: Here are the images - are you still unable to upload them yourself? I believe your editing permissions were updated: https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Fgm-in-the-middle-east.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Endfgm-campaign-video-016.jpg, https://wikiislam.net/wiki/File:Indonesia_-_susanfemalecircumcision-1.jpg | |||
:::::::::::::::: The title you suggest for the main FGM page is good, but sounds more like a journal article than a wiki article. If the origins, history, and sociology of FGM in Islam (plus a short summary of FGM in Islamic law) makeup the crux of what there is to say about the topic, then the article is generally comprehensive enough for it to be entitled as "FGM in Islam". If, on the other hand, there is more to say on the topic, then it is ok if it is presently incomplete - wiki articles are perpetual works in progress (the missing content will eventually be added). On the other hand, if you feel that you have so much to say about the origins and history and sociology of FGM in Islam that this discussion cannot be reasonably contained in an article aimed at giving a general overview of FGM in Islam - then we can make another page: we could have FGM in Islam, FGM in Islamic Law (a heavy section needing elaboration in its own article), ''and'' The Origins, History, and Sociology of Islam. If we take this latter route, the contents of this new third article would just be summarized under a header in the main, overview article (FGM in Islam), just like the content from the FGM in Islamic Law is included in summary fashion in the main article. Does that make sense? If so, you may proceed as you prefer - I can create that new page if you'd like. I just think it is wise to limit the number of pages to the minimum necessary to avoid complexifying things - but it may also be that creating more pages in this case is actually the simpler route. | |||
:::::::::::::::: For the QHS quote and the ambiguous comment you mentioned, you could just introduce a word like 'the above quote' or 'the below quote' to clearly indicate what a passage is referring too. As for 'FGM as un-Islamic', I agree that this is better suited to the FGM in Islamic Law page. [[User:IbnPinker|IbnPinker]] ([[User talk:IbnPinker|talk]]) 21:02, 18 April 2021 (UTC) | |||
::::::::::::::::: "are you still unable to upload them yourself? I believe your editing permissions were updated" - I tried uploading them, but I get "You do not have permission to create new pages." I'll keep the 'FGM as un-Islamic' section at the end of the Islamic Law page - but it might all be a bit long. I'm happy to stick with 'FGM in Islam' if it keeps things effective and efficient. | |||
Hi, I know I've been away for a long time - working on other projects. I hope to get onto doing a page for (male) circumcision soon. I've noticed that the archive links for the FGM pages are all down. Evidently the archive machine I used was not reliable and I need to redo them. Can anyone recommend a reliable archive machine? [[User:Flynnjed|Flynnjed]] ([[User talk:Flynnjed|talk]]) 07:16, 18 February 2022 (UTC) | |||