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Revision as of 12:10, 22 October 2023
, 22 October 2023→Feedback: Thanks for the feedback lightyears! I've applied it and got rid off the final section and basically replaced with links to your article. Had a bit off trouble with the references too but have filled in where I can - I've put my full comments in the Feedback' section of the page you created at the bottom for review. Thanks again :)
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(→Feedback: Thanks for the feedback lightyears! I've applied it and got rid off the final section and basically replaced with links to your article. Had a bit off trouble with the references too but have filled in where I can - I've put my full comments in the Feedback' section of the page you created at the bottom for review. Thanks again :)) |
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The results of many stellar size measurements over the years have shown that most nearby stars are roughly the size of the Sun, with typical diameters of a million kilometers or so.<ref>[https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-astronomy/chapter/diameters-of-stars/#:~:text=The%20results%20of%20many%20stellar,a%20million%20kilometers%20or%20so. https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-astronomy/chapter/diameters-of-stars/]</ref> ''(Lumen Learning. Astronomy. The Stars: A Celestial Census. Diameters of Stars.)'' An example of a calculation to demonstrate the size of this, is the sun can fit around 22 billion billion billion (10^28) people in, with the full workings found in this [https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-can-fit-in-the-sun Quora answer] as an estimate. This of course makes them absurdly large to be used as an object to be thrown by angels at jinn, both of which are approximately human size and visit Earth. | The results of many stellar size measurements over the years have shown that most nearby stars are roughly the size of the Sun, with typical diameters of a million kilometers or so.<ref>[https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-astronomy/chapter/diameters-of-stars/#:~:text=The%20results%20of%20many%20stellar,a%20million%20kilometers%20or%20so. https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-astronomy/chapter/diameters-of-stars/]</ref> ''(Lumen Learning. Astronomy. The Stars: A Celestial Census. Diameters of Stars.)'' An example of a calculation to demonstrate the size of this, is the sun can fit around 22 billion billion billion (10^28) people in, with the full workings found in this [https://www.quora.com/How-many-people-can-fit-in-the-sun Quora answer] as an estimate. This of course makes them absurdly large to be used as an object to be thrown by angels at jinn, both of which are approximately human size and visit Earth. | ||
Also, stars do not actually 'burn' or cause flame which is caused by chemical burning on Earth needing oxygen.<ref>[https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24733000-900-lighting-fires-in-space-is-helping-us-make-greener-energy-on-earth/#:~:text=Fires%20can't%20start%20in,in%20strange%20and%20beautiful%20ways. https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24733000-900-lighting-fires-in-space-is-helping-us-make-greener-energy-on-earth]</ref> ''(New Scientist. Lighting fires in space is helping us make greener energy on Earth. 2020. Philip Ball. '''- same as citation 7''')'' Stars create energy via nuclear fusion instead with no flames. | Also, stars do not actually 'burn' or cause flame which is caused by chemical burning on Earth needing oxygen.<ref>[https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24733000-900-lighting-fires-in-space-is-helping-us-make-greener-energy-on-earth/#:~:text=Fires%20can't%20start%20in,in%20strange%20and%20beautiful%20ways. https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24733000-900-lighting-fires-in-space-is-helping-us-make-greener-energy-on-earth]</ref> ''(New Scientist. Lighting fires in space is helping us make greener energy on Earth. 2020. Philip Ball. '''- same as citation 7 above''')'' Stars create energy via nuclear fusion instead with no flames. | ||
However, these verses would of course fit a relatively small universe as imagined by 7th century Arabs, in which a heavenly firmament is adorned with small stars able to pelt shooting stars at any devils or jinn in their vicinity, seeming to cover visible interstellar distances in a flaming streak across the sky. | However, these verses would of course fit a relatively small universe as imagined by 7th century Arabs, in which a heavenly firmament is adorned with small stars able to pelt shooting stars at any devils or jinn in their vicinity, seeming to cover visible interstellar distances in a flaming streak across the sky. | ||
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===Meteors come from stars=== | ===Meteors come from stars=== | ||
Some apologists, for example, the highly influential [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abul_A'la_Maududi Ala-Maududi] (d. 1979 AD) writing in light of much more modern science in his modern tasfir wrote:{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://myislam.org/surah-al-mulk/ayat-5/#:~:text=Ala%2DMaududi,9. | title= Tasfir Ala-Maududi 67.5}}|This does not mean that the stars themselves are pelted at the Satans, nor that the meteorites shoot out only to drive away the Satans, <b>but it means that the countless meteorites which originate from the stars and wander in space at tremendous speeds and which also fall to the earth in a continuous shower prevent the Satans of the earth from ascending to the heavens.</b> Even if they try to ascend heavenward these meteorites drive them away. This thing has been mentioned here because the Arabs believed about the soothsayers, and this also was the claim made by the soothsayers themselves, that the Satans were under their control, or that they had a close contact with them, and through them they received news of the unseen, and thus, could foretell the destinies of the people. That is why at several places in the Quran, it has been stated that there is absolutely no possibility for the Satans ascending to the heavens and bringing news of the unseen. For explanation, see (Surah Al-Hijr, ayat 16-18) note 9-12, (Surah As-Saaffat, ayat 7-10) note 6,7. As for the truth about meteorites, man’s information in this regard is still without a scientific basis. However, the theory which seems best to account for all the facts known today and the information gathered from the examination of the meteorites fallen on the earth, is that meteorites originate from the disintegration of one or more planets and wander in space and sometimes fall to the earth under its gravitational pull. (See Encyclopedia Britannica, vol. XV, under Meteorites).}} | Some apologists, for example, the highly influential [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abul_A'la_Maududi Ala-Maududi] (d. 1979 AD) writing in light of much more modern science in his modern tasfir wrote:{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://myislam.org/surah-al-mulk/ayat-5/#:~:text=Ala%2DMaududi,9. | title= Tasfir Ala-Maududi 67.5}}|This does not mean that the stars themselves are pelted at the Satans, nor that the meteorites shoot out only to drive away the Satans, <b>but it means that the countless meteorites which originate from the stars and wander in space at tremendous speeds and which also fall to the earth in a continuous shower prevent the Satans of the earth from ascending to the heavens.</b> Even if they try to ascend heavenward these meteorites drive them away. This thing has been mentioned here because the Arabs believed about the soothsayers, and this also was the claim made by the soothsayers themselves, that the Satans were under their control, or that they had a close contact with them, and through them they received news of the unseen, and thus, could foretell the destinies of the people. That is why at several places in the Quran, it has been stated that there is absolutely no possibility for the Satans ascending to the heavens and bringing news of the unseen. For explanation, see (Surah Al-Hijr, ayat 16-18) note 9-12, (Surah As-Saaffat, ayat 7-10) note 6,7. As for the truth about meteorites, man’s information in this regard is still without a scientific basis. However, the theory which seems best to account for all the facts known today and the information gathered from the examination of the meteorites fallen on the earth, is that meteorites originate from the disintegration of one or more planets and wander in space and sometimes fall to the earth under its gravitational pull. (See Encyclopedia Britannica, vol. XV, under Meteorites).}} | ||
''Note: the claim that meteorites ('Meteorites' are ' | ''Note: the claim that meteorites ('Meteorites' are specifically 'space rocks', i.e. the debris that have survived the burning all the way to Earth’s surface from meteors, (not meteors themselves which are the burning objects and mostly come from comet debris) come from planets disintegrating is misleading and out-of-date. 99.8% percent of meteorites are believed to originate from asteroids with the remaining small fraction (0.2%) of meteorites originating from an asteroid or comet colliding with either the Mars or the Moon (split roughly equally between them), and the debris eventually falling into Earths gravitational pull.<ref>https://science.nasa.gov/solar-system/meteors-meteorites/facts/</ref>'' ''(NASA. Meteors and Meteorites: Facts.)'' | ||
'''Objections to this claim''' | '''Objections to this claim''' | ||
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In other words, this has involved twisting the text into something that isn't there. | In other words, this has involved twisting the text into something that isn't there. | ||
===Cosmic rays=== | ===Cosmic rays=== | ||
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abul_A'la_Maududi Ala-Maududi] (d. 1979 AD) also wrote:{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://myislam.org/surah-al-hijr/ayat-18/ | title= Tasfir Ala-Maududi 15.18}}|In Arabic the word shihab-i-mubin literally means a fiery flame. In Surah (Surah As-Saffat, Ayat 10), the same thing has been called shihab-i-thaqib (flame that pierces through darkness). <b>This may or may not necessarily be a meteor for it is just possible that it may be some type of rays such as cosmic rays or even a stronger type which we have not been able to discover as yet. </b>Anyhow, if the fiery flame that pursues Satans may be taken to be a meteor, a countless number of these can form a fortification around our sphere of the universe. Scientific observations made with the help of the telescope have shown that billions of these meteors are rushing from space in a mass of rainfall. towards the earth’s atmosphere. Such a scene was witnessed in an eastern pan of North America on November 13, 1833. This is so strong a fortification that it can prevent Satans from passing through any fortified sphere.}}''Note the meteor shower being referred to here Leonid Meteor Storm, where fragments of ice, rock, and dust left behind by the Comet Tempel-Tuttle. About every 33 years, the Leonid meteor shower intensifies, increasing the possibility of a dazzling display of lights.<ref>https://blog.newspapers.com/november-12-13-1833-the-night-the-stars-fell/</ref> (Newspapers.com. November 12-13, 1833: The Night the Stars Fell. 2022. Jenny Ashcraft) This comes from a predictable pattern of material left behind by the comet entering earths atmosphere and burning up,<ref>https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/leonid-meteor-shower-when-and-where-see-it-uk</ref> (Royal Museums Greenwich. When and where to see the Leonid meteor shower.) they do not actually form a flame in space which is impossible due to there being no oxygen.<ref>[https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24733000-900-lighting-fires-in-space-is-helping-us-make-greener-energy-on-earth/#:~:text=Fires%20can't%20start%20in,in%20strange%20and%20beautiful%20ways https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24733000-900-lighting-fires-in-space-is-helping-us-make-greener-energy-on-earth/]</ref>'' ''(New Scientist. Lighting fires in space is helping us make greener energy on Earth. 2020. Philip Ball. '''- same as citation 7 and 16''')'' | [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abul_A'la_Maududi Ala-Maududi] (d. 1979 AD) also wrote:{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://myislam.org/surah-al-hijr/ayat-18/ | title= Tasfir Ala-Maududi 15.18}}|In Arabic the word shihab-i-mubin literally means a fiery flame. In Surah (Surah As-Saffat, Ayat 10), the same thing has been called shihab-i-thaqib (flame that pierces through darkness). <b>This may or may not necessarily be a meteor for it is just possible that it may be some type of rays such as cosmic rays or even a stronger type which we have not been able to discover as yet. </b>Anyhow, if the fiery flame that pursues Satans may be taken to be a meteor, a countless number of these can form a fortification around our sphere of the universe. Scientific observations made with the help of the telescope have shown that billions of these meteors are rushing from space in a mass of rainfall. towards the earth’s atmosphere. Such a scene was witnessed in an eastern pan of North America on November 13, 1833. This is so strong a fortification that it can prevent Satans from passing through any fortified sphere.}}''Note the meteor shower being referred to here Leonid Meteor Storm, where fragments of ice, rock, and dust left behind by the Comet Tempel-Tuttle. About every 33 years, the Leonid meteor shower intensifies, increasing the possibility of a dazzling display of lights.<ref>https://blog.newspapers.com/november-12-13-1833-the-night-the-stars-fell/</ref> (Newspapers.com. November 12-13, 1833: The Night the Stars Fell. 2022. Jenny Ashcraft) This comes from a predictable pattern of material left behind by the comet entering earths atmosphere and burning up,<ref>https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/leonid-meteor-shower-when-and-where-see-it-uk</ref> (Royal Museums Greenwich. When and where to see the Leonid meteor shower.) they do not actually form a flame in space which is impossible due to there being no oxygen.<ref>[https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24733000-900-lighting-fires-in-space-is-helping-us-make-greener-energy-on-earth/#:~:text=Fires%20can't%20start%20in,in%20strange%20and%20beautiful%20ways https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24733000-900-lighting-fires-in-space-is-helping-us-make-greener-energy-on-earth/]</ref>'' ''(New Scientist. Lighting fires in space is helping us make greener energy on Earth. 2020. Philip Ball.) '''- same as citation 7 and 16 above''')'' | ||
Two other alternative interpretations popular in modern times<ref>https://www.facebook.com/100PROOFSGODEXISTS/photos/are-meteors-or-shooting-stars-used-as-missiles-for-the-devilsjinn-answer-no1-qur/1438650339514784/</ref>''(Facebook Group. Quran and Science in Harmony. 2017.)'' are that the Quran is referring to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronal_mass_ejection coronal mass ejections] (large eruptions of charged matter from the sun or other stars), or [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ray cosmic rays] (high energy, sub-atomic particles travelling through interstellar space). However, coronal mass ejections move slowly in cosmic terms, disperse over distance and do not come from surprise directions ({{Quran|37|8}} states that the devils are pelted from every side, and pursued by a piercing flame if they escape with anything they overheard). Cosmic rays do not emit light as they travel through space and therefore nor could these be the flaming missiles of fire and smoke in the Quran. | Two other alternative interpretations popular in modern times<ref>https://www.facebook.com/100PROOFSGODEXISTS/photos/are-meteors-or-shooting-stars-used-as-missiles-for-the-devilsjinn-answer-no1-qur/1438650339514784/</ref> ''(Facebook Group. Quran and Science in Harmony. 2017.)'' are that the Quran is referring to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronal_mass_ejection coronal mass ejections] (large eruptions of charged matter from the sun or other stars), or [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_ray cosmic rays] (high energy, sub-atomic particles travelling through interstellar space). However, coronal mass ejections move slowly in cosmic terms, disperse over distance and do not come from surprise directions ({{Quran|37|8}} states that the devils are pelted from every side, and pursued by a piercing flame if they escape with anything they overheard). Cosmic rays do not emit light as they travel through space and therefore nor could these be the flaming missiles of fire and smoke in the Quran. | ||
==Additional points== | ==Additional points== | ||
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'''Cheers, I've got rid off that section and added the Scientific American Article you shared as a link to the relevant science.''' | '''Cheers, I've got rid off that section and added the Scientific American Article you shared as a link to the relevant science.''' | ||
:I think generally the whole article is good except for parts of that section because Muslim readers will have no issue with meteoroids changing direction at the last minute by the command of Allah (and just some of them, not that every meteoroid or meteor out there is chasing a jinn). These verses are about a supernatural phenomenon, after all. It makes no difference to them how far away the comets or asteroids are, so long as there is debris in the very close vicinity of earth at any one time which can be redirected as necessary when Allah plays Space Invaders. That's why the predictable nature of meteor showers (the earth annually encounters a number of trails left behind by certain long period comets) and the disconnect between stars and meteors are much more potent points for any Muslims who do accept that the Quran is referring to shooting stars. Perhaps there's some way to refine the distance point to make it stronger and maybe a bit shorter. | :I think generally the whole article is good except for parts of that section because Muslim readers will have no issue with meteoroids changing direction at the last minute by the command of Allah (and just some of them, not that every meteoroid or meteor out there is chasing a jinn). These verses are about a supernatural phenomenon, after all. It makes no difference to them how far away the comets or asteroids are, so long as there is debris in the very close vicinity of earth at any one time which can be redirected as necessary when Allah plays Space Invaders. That's why the predictable nature of meteor showers (the earth annually encounters a number of trails left behind by certain long period comets) and the disconnect between stars and meteors are much more potent points for any Muslims who do accept that the Quran is referring to shooting stars. Perhaps there's some way to refine the distance point to make it stronger and maybe a bit shorter. | ||
'''Yes I think you are right. I may reword, refine and resubmit in the future if I can clarify the relevance ( | '''Yes I think you are right. I may reword, refine and resubmit in the future if I can clarify the relevance (especially if I see a lot of arguments online specifically that general asteroids/comets are the weapons), but I'll leave as it is for now. Also thank you for the image of god playing space invaders with jinn...''' | ||
*When citing sources, please do not just post bare links. Instead please give the title of the webpage (which should be a link to that page), the name of the website, maybe the author and, if possible, we usually include the date or year of publication. Otherwise the references section will look extremely messy, especially when there are long urls which increase the width of the page when viewed on a mobile device. | *When citing sources, please do not just post bare links. Instead please give the title of the webpage (which should be a link to that page), the name of the website, maybe the author and, if possible, we usually include the date or year of publication. Otherwise the references section will look extremely messy, especially when there are long urls which increase the width of the page when viewed on a mobile device. | ||
:To do this in visual editor, click citation, type some text (page title, website, date etc.), highlight the page title that should become a link, then click the link button where you can add the url for that text. Alternatively, it might be possible to use the cite web template in visual editor (I haven't tried it as I always just use the source editor for everything). | :To do this in visual editor, click citation, type some text (page title, website, date etc.), highlight the page title that should become a link, then click the link button where you can add the url for that text. Alternatively, it might be possible to use the cite web template in visual editor (I haven't tried it as I always just use the source editor for everything). | ||
'''Cool, I've gotten rid off the long links - however I'm having some trouble editing the reference name in the links section. It seems to make a link with the text appear as superscript in the text of the page itself, rather than in the references section.''' | '''Cool, I've gotten rid off the long links - however I'm having some trouble editing the reference name in the links section. It seems to make a link with the text appear as superscript in the text of the page itself, rather than in the references section.''' | ||
'''Instead I have added how I would cite this in brackets next to the citation link in the text. It always includes the name of the page and title. As well as organisation, author and publication where they are provided on the website.''' | |||
*Some links have very long url parameters which start with #:~:text. This occurs when you copy paste a link from the google "People also ask" suggestions. It highlights certain words on the webpage and will confuse readers, so please trim off the #:~:text part from any urls. | *Some links have very long url parameters which start with #:~:text. This occurs when you copy paste a link from the google "People also ask" suggestions. It highlights certain words on the webpage and will confuse readers, so please trim off the #:~:text part from any urls. | ||
*With academia.edu links, it's a good idea to strip out everything after the 8 digit number in the url (on wikipedia this is done automatically by a bot). The link will then always work even if the author tweaks the title and results in a much less unwieldy url if the title is long. | *With academia.edu links, it's a good idea to strip out everything after the 8 digit number in the url (on wikipedia this is done automatically by a bot). The link will then always work even if the author tweaks the title and results in a much less unwieldy url if the title is long. | ||
*When citing books, please give the full reference. The Decharneux reference springs to mind which should be something like this (with page numbers): Julien Decharneux (2023), ''Creation and Contemplation: The Cosmology of the Qur’ān and Its Late Antique Background'', Berlin: De Gruyter | *When citing books, please give the full reference. The Decharneux reference springs to mind which should be something like this (with page numbers): Julien Decharneux (2023), ''Creation and Contemplation: The Cosmology of the Qur’ān and Its Late Antique Background'', Berlin: De Gruyter | ||
:You can make the book title link to the degruyter webpage if you wish. | :You can make the book title link to the degruyter webpage if you wish. | ||
''' | '''Thanks, done.''' | ||
'''I also wanted to add a photo of a meteor shower at night (this one specifically''' https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/perseids-in-night-time-gm490432460-75207739?phrase=meteor+shower&searchscope=image%2Cfilm) '''to highlight the similarities and bring some colour to the page, which is covered for use on websites by their license agreement''' https://www.istockphoto.com/legal/license-agreement''', but can't as I don't have admin power.''' '''If I purchased this (it's very cheap) could I send over to someone to upload please?''' | |||
*I've replaced the links to Quranx.com with the <nowiki>{{Quran||}}</nowiki> template. When citing verses please always use the <nowiki>{{Quran||}}</nowiki> or <nowiki>{{Quran-range|||}}</nowiki> templates since one day the url structure may change or we might have to use another site (both of which have happened in the past). Thanks to using the template we didn't have to go through every single citation and fix them when that happened. We just changed the website pointed to by the template or the url structure in the template. | *I've replaced the links to Quranx.com with the <nowiki>{{Quran||}}</nowiki> template. When citing verses please always use the <nowiki>{{Quran||}}</nowiki> or <nowiki>{{Quran-range|||}}</nowiki> templates since one day the url structure may change or we might have to use another site (both of which have happened in the past). Thanks to using the template we didn't have to go through every single citation and fix them when that happened. We just changed the website pointed to by the template or the url structure in the template. | ||
*I've also added a little more detail on the interesting phrase in the Tirmidhi hadith with links to Lane's Lexicon | *I've also added a little more detail on the interesting phrase in the Tirmidhi hadith with links to Lane's Lexicon | ||
*As mentioned somewhere in the wiki guide, nowadays we do not have a section titled "Conclusion" as we are going for a more encyclopedic format rather than telling the reader what to think overall, so I've edited and retitled that section. [[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 22:15, 15 October 2023 (UTC) | *As mentioned somewhere in the wiki guide, nowadays we do not have a section titled "Conclusion" as we are going for a more encyclopedic format rather than telling the reader what to think overall, so I've edited and retitled that section. [[User:Lightyears|Lightyears]] ([[User talk:Lightyears|talk]]) 22:15, 15 October 2023 (UTC) | ||