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→Estuaries and salt water: Have removed notes for other section and formatted - so is now ready for review again. Thank you.
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The first claim is around fresh water from rivers meeting seas/oceans of salt water, with the transition stage known as [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary estuaries]: | The first claim is around fresh water from rivers meeting seas/oceans of salt water, with the transition stage known as [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary estuaries]: | ||
<big>(((EDITORS: Are you able to add the picture of figure 4 in the quote box below from the website please?')))</big> | |||
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water.<b> (see Figure 4) | {{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern science has discovered that in estuaries, where fresh (sweet) and salt water meet, the situation is somewhat different from what is found in places where two seas meet. It has been discovered that what distinguishes fresh water from salt water in estuaries is a pycnocline zone with a marked density discontinuity separating the two layers. This partition (zone of separation) has a different salinity from the fresh water and from the salt water.<b> (see Figure 4) | ||
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* This uses the definite particle ''''al'''<nowiki/>' for 'the' for a specific two seas, not general. | * This uses the definite particle ''''al'''<nowiki/>' for 'the' for a specific two seas, not general. | ||
* '''<nowiki/>'baḥr'''' بحر for large body of water/sea. | * '''<nowiki/>'baḥr'''' بحر for large body of water/sea. | ||
* the dual s'''<nowiki/>'''uffi<nowiki/>x/ending in '''<nowiki/>'ayni'''' -ين means there are two of them, as | * the dual s'''<nowiki/>'''uffi<nowiki/>x/ending in '''<nowiki/>'ayni'''' -ين means there are two of them, as opposed to singular or plural (3 or more in Arabic). | ||
# Yet this happens in many places (there are over 1,200 documented estuaries,<ref>''[https://www.seaaroundus.org/about-estuaries-database/#:~:text=Specifically%2C%20this%20database%2C%20the%20first,and%20territories%20(Alder%202003). About Estuary Database].'' Sea Around Us. Jacqueline Alder. Citing: ''Alder J (2003) Putting the Coast in the Sea Around Us Project. The Sea Around Us Newsletter No. 15:1-2.'' | # Yet this happens in many places (there are over 1,200 documented estuaries,<ref>''[https://www.seaaroundus.org/about-estuaries-database/#:~:text=Specifically%2C%20this%20database%2C%20the%20first,and%20territories%20(Alder%202003). About Estuary Database].'' Sea Around Us. Jacqueline Alder. Citing: ''Alder J (2003) Putting the Coast in the Sea Around Us Project. The Sea Around Us Newsletter No. 15:1-2.'' | ||
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==== '''Two actual seas''' ==== | ==== '''Two actual seas''' ==== | ||
Secondly, it states the verses not specifically mentioning sweet and salty waters are referring to different seas with different kinds of waters (again click the link to see the images): | Secondly, it states the verses not specifically mentioning sweet and salty waters are referring to different seas with different kinds of waters (again click the link to see the images): | ||
<big>(((EDITORS: Are you able to add the picture of figure 13 in the quote box below from the website please?')))</big> | |||
{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density. For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water. When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometres into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics. The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth <b>(see figure 13). | {{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm | title=From A Brief Illustrated Guide to Understanding Islam. E) The Quran on Seas and Rivers. islam-guide.com.}}|Modern Science has discovered that in the places where two different seas meet, there is a barrier between them. This barrier divides the two seas so that each sea has its own temperature, salinity, and density. For example, Mediterranean sea water is warm, saline, and less dense, compared to Atlantic ocean water. When Mediterranean sea water enters the Atlantic over the Gibraltar sill, it moves several hundred kilometres into the Atlantic at a depth of about 1000 meters with its own warm, saline, and less dense characteristics. The Mediterranean water stabilizes at this depth <b>(see figure 13). | ||
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=== Antiquity interpretation === | === Antiquity interpretation === | ||
There is another interpretation for this verse which critics argue is the only one to accurately fit this verse on a literal reading, which is discussed below. This fits a prevalent antiquity (and pre-antiquity) view that was present across the region, and also held in biblical cosmology and later Christian/Jewish exegesis at the time of Mohammad, that this refers to a somewhat magical cosmic ocean surrounding the Earth. | There is another interpretation for this verse which critics argue is the only one to accurately fit this verse on a literal plain reading, which is discussed below. This fits a prevalent antiquity (and pre-antiquity) view that was present across the region, and also held in biblical cosmology and later Christian/Jewish exegesis at the time of Mohammad, that this refers to a somewhat magical cosmic ocean surrounding the Earth. | ||
This likely originates from ancient Mesopotamian myths, such as the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14</ref> Wensinck explains,<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17</ref> "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". | This likely originates from ancient Mesopotamian myths, such as the ancient Akkadian myth of the Abzu, the name for a fresh water underground sea that was given a religious quality in Sumerian and Akkadian mythology. Lakes, springs, rivers, wells, and other sources of fresh water were thought to draw their water from the Abzu underground sea, while the Ocean that surrounded the world was a saltwater sea. This underground sea is called Tehom in the Hebrew Bible. For example, Genesis 49:25 says, "blessings of the heavens above, and Tehom lying beneath".<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 14</ref> Wensinck explains,<ref>Wensinck, Arent Jan (1918). "The Ocean in the Literature of the Western Semites". Verhandelingen der Koninklijke Akademie van Wetenschappen te Amsterdam. Afdeeling Letterkunde. Nieuwe reeks. dl. 19. no. 2. page 17</ref> "Thus it appears that the idea of there being a sea of sweet water under our earth, the ancient Tehom, which is the source of springs and rivers, is common to the Western Semites". | ||
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The Quran states that Moses is able to reach “the junction of the two seas” (majmaʿ al-baḥrayni), where he meets a Servant of God. It states that he is able to reach it after hearing from his young attendant about the fish that they were carrying with them (for food) escaping. This is twice referred to, in Q18:61 and v63. In both cases the dynamic is described by exactly the same phrase, with v63 ending in ʿajaban, which is commonly translated as “wondrously” or “in a marvellous way,” and 'saraban', which has caused problems and disagreements among Muslim commentators: | The Quran states that Moses is able to reach “the junction of the two seas” (majmaʿ al-baḥrayni), where he meets a Servant of God. It states that he is able to reach it after hearing from his young attendant about the fish that they were carrying with them (for food) escaping. This is twice referred to, in Q18:61 and v63. In both cases the dynamic is described by exactly the same phrase, with v63 ending in ʿajaban, which is commonly translated as “wondrously” or “in a marvellous way,” and 'saraban', which has caused problems and disagreements among Muslim commentators: | ||
{{Quote| | {{Quote|[https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 <i>Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. pages 19 - 32.] Pp. 21.</i> Tommaso Tesei. American Oriental Society. Vol. 135, No. 1|...the root s-r-b is found in three other Quranic passages—sarāb (“mirage”) in 24:39 and 78:20, and sārib (“to go forth or away”) in 13:10—sarab is a Quranic hapax legomenon, that is, it appears only once. One way to understand saraban is to read it as the accusative of sarab, which means “tunnel” or “subterranean excavation.” Then the phrase in v. 61 can be translated as either “and it took its way in the sea by way of a subterranean excavation” or “and it took its way: a subterranean excavation in the sea,” depending on whether saraban is considered an accusative of circumstance (ḥāl) or a second direct object (the irst being sabīlahu) of the verb ittakhadha.}} | ||
The puzzled commentators have given rise to a number of conflicting interpretations by later Muslims<ref>''[https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/18.60 Tafsir ibn Kathir Verse 18:60-65].'' Ibn Kathir <abbr>c.</abbr> 1300 – 1373.</ref> starting from the mid-8th century exegesis, who often came up with miraculous/magical stories to link the dead fish escaping with a tunnel (a summary is provided in the article). Tommaso states that such attempts to relate the path the fish takes in the sea to passage on land are direct consequences of the apparent discordance between the meaning of the word sarab, “subterranean passage,” and the place where it is said to be found: the sea. It seems the later commentators did not have the full story it arose from. With the story matching a common motif of the water of life surrounding the Earth that could give life to the dead:{{Quote| | The puzzled commentators have given rise to a number of conflicting interpretations by later Muslims<ref>''[https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/18.60 Tafsir ibn Kathir Verse 18:60-65].'' Ibn Kathir <abbr>c.</abbr> 1300 – 1373.</ref> starting from the mid-8th century exegesis, who often came up with miraculous/magical stories to link the dead fish escaping with a tunnel (a summary is provided in the article). Tommaso states that such attempts to relate the path the fish takes in the sea to passage on land are direct consequences of the apparent discordance between the meaning of the word sarab, “subterranean passage,” and the place where it is said to be found: the sea. It seems the later commentators did not have the full story it arose from. With the story matching a common motif of the water of life surrounding the Earth that could give life to the dead: {{Quote|[https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 <i>Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. pages 19 - 32.] Pp. 22.</i> Tommaso Tesei. American Oriental Society. Vol. 135, No. 1| All we know is that the fish breaks loose near a rock at the junction of the two seas and that this event indicates to Moses that he has reached the goal of his journey. When examined in light of a legend concerning Alexander’s journey to the Land of the Blessed, during which he fails to bathe in the water of life, the episode acquires more sense, however. Specifically, the fish’s escape represents an allusion to the resurrection of a salt fish after Alexander’s cook washes it in the water of life... ...Muslim exegetes introduced some elements of this legend in their explanation of the narrative told in the Quran. In fact, the fish’s escape episode is usually related to the motif of the water of life. Western scholars, too, almost unanimously consider this story of Alexander to be behind the Quranic account. The motif of the source of life reported in the legend concerning Alexander should certainly be understood in relation to the life-giving characteristics that Near Easterners attributed to the sweet waters of the rivers...}}Islamic scholar Gabriel Said Reynolds also notes this 'junction between two seas' (and other verses mentioning the two seas) as likely meaning the waters of the heaven. He also provides a translation of the relevant sections from the Alexander Song in his 2018 book ''"The Quran and Bible: Text and Commentary",''<ref>[https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300181326/the-quran-and-the-bible/ T''he Quran and Bible:Text and Commentary''], New Haven: Yale University Press, 2018. Gabriel Said Reynolds.</ref> which seems to have influenced the story (''again see [[Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance]]''): | ||
{{Quote|Gabriel Said Reynolds, "The Quran and Bible:Text and Commentary", New Haven: Yale University Press, 2018 pp. 464-465|The Macedonian king, the son of Philip spoke: / “I have determined to follow a great quest to reach the lands, / even the furthest lands, / to reach the seas, and the coasts, and the borders as they are; / Above all to enter and to see the land of darkness / if it is truly as I heard it is.” | {{Quote|Gabriel Said Reynolds, "The Quran and Bible:Text and Commentary", New Haven: Yale University Press, 2018 pp. 464-465|The Macedonian king, the son of Philip spoke: / “I have determined to follow a great quest to reach the lands, / even the furthest lands, / to reach the seas, and the coasts, and the borders as they are; / Above all to enter and to see the land of darkness / if it is truly as I heard it is.” | ||
(Song of Alexander, recension 1, p. 26, ll. 33–38) | (Song of Alexander, recension 1, p. 26, ll. 33–38) | ||
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(Song of Alexander, recension 1, pp. 48–50, ll. 182–92)}} | (Song of Alexander, recension 1, pp. 48–50, ll. 182–92)}} | ||
This also explains why the fish (which was their food, i.e. dead) then comes back to life and takes to the sea in a 'marvellous' way ''(it is worth pointing out the obvious that there is no sea on Earth that can revive dead animals)'': | This also explains why the fish (which was their food, i.e. dead) then comes back to life and takes to the sea in a 'marvellous' way ''(it is worth pointing out the obvious that there is no sea on Earth that can revive dead animals)'': | ||
{{Quote| | {{Quote|[https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 <i>Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. pages 19 - 32.] Pp. 23.</i> Tommaso Tesei. American Oriental Society. Vol. 135, No. 1|When at v. 63 the Quran states that the fish “took its way in the sea in a marvellous way,” it evidently refers to its wondrously being revived upon contact with the miraculous water. In fact, the enigmatic episode acquires sense only if read in light of the dynamic described in the legend of the water of life, and the extreme vagueness with which the Quran describes the episode suggests that its audience was expected to be acquainted with the Alexander tale...}} | ||
Similar to other religious near-East sources: | Similar to other religious near-East sources: | ||
{{Quote| | {{Quote|[https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.7817/jameroriesoci.135.1.19 <i>Some Cosmological Notions from Late Antiquity in Q 18:60–65: The Quran in Light of Its Cultural Context. pages 19 - 32.] Pp. 23.</i> Tommaso Tesei. American Oriental Society. Vol. 135, No. 1|..This version of the story of Alexander reflects a simple idea that follows the literal understanding of Gen 2:10–14, namely, that the earthly paradise could be reached by following the course of one of the four rivers. In fact, sources confirm that during late antiquity it was widely held that paradise was a physical place situated on the other side of the ocean encircling the earth. In accordance with this concept, it was generally assumed that the rivers lowing from paradise passed under this ocean to reach the inhabited part of the world... (pp. 24) | ||
..identification of the water of life with the rivers of paradise, as confirmed by Philostorgius and, more significantly, in the Talmudic version of the Alexander legend, and, on the other hand, the idea that these rivers lowed underground beneath the sea from paradise to the inhabited earth, as several authors report—it seems very likely that saraban in Q 18:63 is meant to describe the subterranean passage under the sea that the fish takes once resurrected by the miraculous water of the paradisiacal rivers... | ..identification of the water of life with the rivers of paradise, as confirmed by Philostorgius and, more significantly, in the Talmudic version of the Alexander legend, and, on the other hand, the idea that these rivers lowed underground beneath the sea from paradise to the inhabited earth, as several authors report—it seems very likely that saraban in Q 18:63 is meant to describe the subterranean passage under the sea that the fish takes once resurrected by the miraculous water of the paradisiacal rivers... (pp. 25) | ||
In Quranic cosmology, this expression is possibly intended to designate a place that has a specific role in the passage of the heavenly waters to earth. In light of the above, one can imagine majmaʿ al-baḥrayn as the place where the heavenly and terrestrial oceans meet, and from where the sweet waters reach the earth, by way of an underground course alluded to by the expression saraban..}} | In Quranic cosmology, this expression is possibly intended to designate a place that has a specific role in the passage of the heavenly waters to earth. In light of the above, one can imagine majmaʿ al-baḥrayn as the place where the heavenly and terrestrial oceans meet, and from where the sweet waters reach the earth, by way of an underground course alluded to by the expression saraban.. (pp. 29)}} | ||
=== The Biblical and Judeo-Christian background literature === | === The Biblical and Judeo-Christian background literature === | ||
The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedents of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature]]. The bible itself also contains a sea above the Earth: | The story of Moses and his servant is one of four stories in Surah al-Kahf. Modern academic scholarship has identified antecedents of each story in the lore of late antiquity. This particular story is almost unanimously considered to derive from a legend about Alexander the Great and his search for the water of life. For details see the section on the four stories in Surah al-Kahf in the article [[Parallels Between the Qur'an and Late Antique Judeo-Christian Literature]]. The bible itself also contains a sea above the Earth: | ||
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=== '''Islamic Commentaries''' === | === '''Islamic Commentaries''' === | ||
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Tabari Al-Tabari] also provided an interpretation on this meaning of this verse to mean a 'sea in the sky and earth that meet every year' (with other views in his tafsir on verse:) | [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Tabari Al-Tabari] also provided an interpretation on this meaning of this verse to mean a 'sea in the sky and earth that meet every year' (with other views in his tafsir on verse:) | ||
{{Quote| | {{Quote|[https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=1&tSoraNo=55&tAyahNo=19&tDisplay=yes&Page=2&Size=1&LanguageId=1 Al-Ṭabarī Tafsir verse 55:19]|...On the authority of his father, on the authority of Ibn Abbas, in his saying: {The two seas meet.} He said: <b>A sea in the sky and earth that meet every year.</b> Others said: He meant the Persian Sea and the Roman Sea...}}And speaks of a cosmic waters that surround the Earth and heavens elsewhere. | ||
{{Quote|Al-Tabari, Vol. 1, pp. 207-208|According to Muhammad b. Sahl b. 'Askar-Isma'il b. 'Abd al-Karim-Wahb, mentioning some of his majesty (as being described as follows): The heavens and the earth and the oceans are in the haykal, and the haykal is in the Footstool. God's feet are upon the Footstool. He carries the Footstool. It became like a sandal on His feet. When Wahb was asked: What is the haykal? He replied: Something on the heavens' extremities that surrounds the earth and the oceans like ropes that are used to fasten a tent. And when Wahb was asked how earths are (constituted), he replied: <b>They are seven earths that are flat and islands. Between each two earths, there is an ocean. All that is surrounded by the (surrounding) ocean, and the haykal is behind the ocean.</b>}} | {{Quote|Al-Tabari, Vol. 1, pp. 207-208|According to Muhammad b. Sahl b. 'Askar-Isma'il b. 'Abd al-Karim-Wahb, mentioning some of his majesty (as being described as follows): The heavens and the earth and the oceans are in the haykal, and the haykal is in the Footstool. God's feet are upon the Footstool. He carries the Footstool. It became like a sandal on His feet. When Wahb was asked: What is the haykal? He replied: Something on the heavens' extremities that surrounds the earth and the oceans like ropes that are used to fasten a tent. And when Wahb was asked how earths are (constituted), he replied: <b>They are seven earths that are flat and islands. Between each two earths, there is an ocean. All that is surrounded by the (surrounding) ocean, and the haykal is behind the ocean.</b>}} | ||
Angelika Neuwirth notes that's Tabari's is the interpretation in accordance with the Qur'anic evidence, while other later interpretations (e.g. of different actual seas and metaphorical seas of fresh and salty water discussed below) were created to fit new Greek science.<ref>Cosmology Entry. Space in cosmological context. Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an. pp. 445-446. Angelika Neuwirth. 2001. | Angelika Neuwirth notes that's Tabari's is the interpretation in accordance with the Qur'anic evidence, while other later interpretations (e.g. of different actual seas and metaphorical seas of fresh and salty water discussed below) were created to fit new Greek science.<ref>Cosmology Entry. Space in cosmological context. Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an. pp. 445-446. Angelika Neuwirth. 2001. | ||
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Read online for free here: ''[https://archive.org/details/encyclopaedia-of-the-quran-6-volumes-jane-dammen-mc-auliffe/page/n481/mode/2up?q=Cosmology Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an ( 6 Volumes)]. Page 15/325 / 482 of 3956 of PDF''</ref> | Read online for free here: ''[https://archive.org/details/encyclopaedia-of-the-quran-6-volumes-jane-dammen-mc-auliffe/page/n481/mode/2up?q=Cosmology Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an ( 6 Volumes)]. Page 15/325 / 482 of 3956 of PDF''</ref> | ||
{{Quote|Cosmology Entry. Space in cosmological context. Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an. pp. 445-446. Angelika Neuwirth. 2001.|‘The cryptic qur’anic statement about the two oceans has engendered diverse interpretations, mostly attempts to vindicate the geocentric Aristotelean-Ptolemaic world view. Only al-Tabari (d. 310/923) presents an interpretation in accordance with the qur'anic evidence, the image of a world swimming in an ocean and being covered by another ocean above the highest heaven. Al-Tabart (Ta/si, xxvii, 75, ad Q 55:19) states that the two oceans are located above the earth and around it respectively, the upper waters being fresh and sweet (‘adhbun furatun), the lower salty and bitter (milhun waqun).}} | {{Quote|Cosmology Entry. Space in cosmological context. [https://archive.org/details/EncyclopaediaOfTheQuranVol.1aD/page/n481/mode/2up Encyclopaedia Of The Qur’an.] pp. 445-446. Angelika Neuwirth. 2001.|‘The cryptic qur’anic statement about the two oceans has engendered diverse interpretations, mostly attempts to vindicate the geocentric Aristotelean-Ptolemaic world view. Only al-Tabari (d. 310/923) presents an interpretation in accordance with the qur'anic evidence, the image of a world swimming in an ocean and being covered by another ocean above the highest heaven. Al-Tabart (Ta/si, xxvii, 75, ad Q 55:19) states that the two oceans are located above the earth and around it respectively, the upper waters being fresh and sweet (‘adhbun furatun), the lower salty and bitter (milhun waqun).}} | ||
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurtubi Al-Qurtubi], another prominent Sunni Scholar also provides this 'sky and Earth sea meeting' view:{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=5&tSoraNo=25&tAyahNo=53&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1 | title=Tafsir al-Qurtabi 25:53}}|Ibn Abbas and Ibn Jubayr said: It refers to the ocean of the sky and the ocean of the earth. Ibn Abbas further explained: They meet each other every year, and between them is a barrier decreed by Allah. "And a barrier between them is forbidden to be crossed." It is forbidden for the salty water to mix with the sweet water or for the sweet water to become salty.}} | [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qurtubi Al-Qurtubi], another prominent Sunni Scholar also provides this 'sky and Earth sea meeting' view:{{Quote|{{cite web| url=https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=1&tTafsirNo=5&tSoraNo=25&tAyahNo=53&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1 | title=Tafsir al-Qurtabi 25:53}}|Ibn Abbas and Ibn Jubayr said: It refers to the ocean of the sky and the ocean of the earth. Ibn Abbas further explained: They meet each other every year, and between them is a barrier decreed by Allah. "And a barrier between them is forbidden to be crossed." It is forbidden for the salty water to mix with the sweet water or for the sweet water to become salty.}} | ||
[https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Abbas/18.60 Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs] and [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/18.60 Tafsir Ibn Al Kathir] commentary on verse 18:60, while not stating this comes from a cosmic ocean (but rather a nearby spring), also relate this story to a rock which contains the fountain of life reviving a dead fish, which pulls motifs from the near-East view of a magical cosmic waters with life giving qualities. ''(Once again it is worth pointing out the obvious that there is no magic fountain or rock on Earth that can revive dead animals).'' | [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Abbas/18.60 Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs] and [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/18.60 Tafsir Ibn Al Kathir] commentary on verse 18:60, while not stating this comes from a cosmic ocean (but rather a nearby spring), also relate this story to a rock which contains the fountain of life reviving a dead fish, which pulls motifs from the near-East view of a magical cosmic waters with life giving qualities. ''(Once again it is worth pointing out the obvious that there is no magic fountain or rock on Earth that can revive dead animals for this interpretation to fit).'' | ||
It is also very difficult to imagine how one would know they had reached a junction of two seas, if this was referring to man-made sea boundaries as (such as the Persian and Roman seas) which many later commentaries guess at. However they would be more likely to know by reaching a magical barrier between the Earthly sea and cosmic ocean. | It is also very difficult to imagine how one would know they had reached a junction of two seas, if this was referring to man-made sea boundaries as (such as the Persian and Roman seas) which many later commentaries guess at. However they would be more likely to know by reaching a magical barrier between the Earthly sea and cosmic ocean. | ||
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This idea of a cosmic ocean also has strong connections to the myth of the Islamic whale (''see [[The Islamic Whale]]'') swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back, a view held by most major traditional Islamic scholars on their Qur'an commentaries such as Al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Al-Razi, Al Qurtubi etc. | This idea of a cosmic ocean also has strong connections to the myth of the Islamic whale (''see [[The Islamic Whale]]'') swimming in the ocean with Earth on it's back, a view held by most major traditional Islamic scholars on their Qur'an commentaries such as Al-Tabari, Ibn Kathir, Al-Razi, Al Qurtubi etc. | ||
Separately, in the story of Gog and Magog, also linked to [[Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance|Dhul-Qarnayn/Alexander the Great]] and this tale, some Shi'i traditions locate the barrier (of Gog and Magog) either behind the Mediterranean, between the two mountains found there, whose rear part is the encircling sea/ocean of the world ( | Separately, in the story of Gog and Magog, also linked to [[Dhul-Qarnayn and the Alexander Romance|Dhul-Qarnayn/Alexander the Great]] and this tale, some Shi'i traditions locate the barrier (of Gog and Magog) either behind the Mediterranean, between the two mountains found there, whose rear part is the encircling sea/ocean of the world ([https://referenceworks.brillonline.com/entries/encyclopaedia-of-islam-2/al-bahr-al-muhit-SIM_1064 al-Baḥr al-Muḥīṭ]).<ref>van Donzel, Emeri; Schmidt, Andrea. ''Gog and Magog in Early Eastern Christian and Islamic Sources: Sallam's Quest for Alexander's Wall.'' Leiden: Brill. pp. 81. <nowiki>ISBN 9789004174160</nowiki>, 2010. The full book can be read on the ''Internet Archive [https://archive.org/details/gogandmagoginearlyeasternchristianandislamicsources/page/n98/mode/1up linked here].''</ref> | ||
As mentioned in the introductory paragraph, there are many classical scholars who have attributed the 'two seas' verses other than Moses reaching them (in Q18:60-65) as non-literal, in the sense that it is referring to the way that fresh water bodies of water are separate to the salty seas and oceans in general,<ref>Tafsir Ibn Kathir on [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/25.51 Verse 25:51.] </ref>usually by land.<ref>Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on verse [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Jalal/25.53 25:53]</ref> However once again it should be noted that it is not supported by the actual language of the Quran which designates the verse to be talking about two specific large bodies of water, rather than the many, many separate but unconnected bodies of fresh water across Earth. This view for example by Ibn Kathir seems supported by the fact that no-where on Earth has a sea with fresh water rather than a linguistic analysis (let alone there is no-where on Earth a freshwater sea touches a saltwater sea without merging). | As mentioned in the introductory paragraph, there are many classical scholars who have attributed the 'two seas' verses other than Moses reaching them (in Q18:60-65) as non-literal, in the sense that it is referring to the way that fresh water bodies of water are separate to the salty seas and oceans in general,<ref>Tafsir Ibn Kathir on [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/25.51 Verse 25:51.] </ref>usually by land.<ref>Tafsir Al-Jalalayn on verse [https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Jalal/25.53 25:53]</ref> However once again it should be noted that it is not supported by the actual language of the Quran which designates the verse to be talking about two specific large bodies of water, rather than the many, many separate but unconnected bodies of fresh water across Earth. This view for example by Ibn Kathir seems supported by the fact that no-where on Earth has a sea with fresh water rather than a linguistic analysis (let alone there is no-where on Earth a freshwater sea touches a saltwater sea without merging). | ||
{{Quote| | {{Quote|[https://quranx.com/Tafsir/Kathir/25.51 Tafsir Ibn Kathir on Verse 25:51]|(And it is He Who has let free the two seas, this is palatable and sweet, and that is salty and bitter;) means, He has created the two kinds of water, sweet and salty. The sweet water is like that in rivers, springs and wells, which is fresh, sweet, palatable water. This was the view of Ibn Jurayj and of Ibn Jarir, and this is the meaning without a doubt, <b>for nowhere in creation is there a sea which is fresh and sweet.</b>}} | ||
==== Folklore and maps ==== | ==== Folklore and maps ==== | ||
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Images of this can be seen for free in her 2017 article [https://scholarworks.boisestate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=history_facpubs ''In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision''] on P56 and P57. | Images of this can be seen for free in her 2017 article [https://scholarworks.boisestate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1116&context=history_facpubs ''In God's Eyes: The Sacrality of the Seas in the Islamic Cartographic Vision''] on P56 and P57. | ||
<big>(((EDITORS: Are you able to add this picture of the map in then please do)))</big> | |||
== External links == | == External links == | ||
* https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran - ''Previous archived Wikiislam page on the former site covering this 'miracle''' | * [https://archive.wikiislam.net/wiki/Meeting_of_Fresh_and_Salt_Water_in_the_Quran Archive Wikiislam (former version) - Meeting of Fresh and Salt Water in the Quran] - ''Previous archived Wikiislam page on the former site covering this 'miracle''' | ||
* [https://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/It-is-truth/chap13.htm Answering Islam - Facts About the Seas and Oceans] | * [https://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/It-is-truth/chap13.htm Answering Islam - Facts About the Seas and Oceans] | ||
* [https://atheism-vs-islam.com/index.php/scientific-mistakes-in-the-revelation/139-the-rain-model-in-muhammad-s-mind-covering-the-entire-islamic-cosmology,-including-the-flat-earth-concept The Rain Model in Muhammad's Mind] - ''an article on Islam Vs Atheism.com covering this topic and other water cycle related verses in the Quran and hadith'' | * [https://atheism-vs-islam.com/index.php/scientific-mistakes-in-the-revelation/139-the-rain-model-in-muhammad-s-mind-covering-the-entire-islamic-cosmology,-including-the-flat-earth-concept The Rain Model in Muhammad's Mind] - ''an article on Islam Vs Atheism.com covering this topic and other water cycle related verses in the Quran and hadith'' | ||