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Lightyears (talk | contribs) (→Nabatean rock tombs at al-Hijr as homes and palaces from before the time of Pharaoh: Important to be explicit that the Quran puts not only Thamud (and their destruction) before Moses, but thereby also the carved buldings too.) |
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The Qur'anic narrative concerning Thamūd contains several major historical inaccuracies: | The Qur'anic narrative concerning Thamūd contains several major historical inaccuracies: | ||
# The structures at al-Hijr were tombs, not homes or palaces, as described in the Qur'an. | # The carved structures at al-Hijr were tombs, not homes or palaces, as described in the Qur'an. | ||
# These tombs were built by the Nabateans, not the Thamūd. | # These tombs were built by the Nabateans, not the Thamūd. | ||
# They were built from the 2nd century BCE to the 2nd century CE, not before Moses. | |||
# The timeline of Thamūd's existence does not align with the Qur'anic claim that they predated Moses. | # The timeline of Thamūd's existence does not align with the Qur'anic claim that they predated Moses. | ||
# There is no evidence of a sudden mass extinction event for the people as described in the Qur'an. | # There is no evidence of a sudden mass extinction event for the people as described in the Qur'an. | ||
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Al-Hijr is accepted as this location by Islamic scholars.<ref>E.g. see tafsirs/commentaries [https://quranx.com/tafsirs/15.80 on verse 15:80]</ref> It is also mentioned once by name in Quran 15:80-83 ("the companions of al-Hijr") and its description and destruction matches that for Thamud.{{Quote|1={{Quran-range|15|80|83}}|2=And certainly did the companions of al-Hijr [ al-Hijr ٱلْحِجْرِ ] deny the messengers. And We gave them Our signs, but from them they were turning away. And they used to carve from the mountains, houses [ buyūtan بُيُوتًا ], feeling secure. But the shriek seized them at early morning.}}Al-Hijr is also identified in hadiths as the "al Hijr, land of Thamud" (al-hijr ardi Thamudi الْحِجْرِ أَرْضِ ثَمُودَ):{{Quote|{{Bukhari|||3379|darussalam}}|Narrated `Abdullah bin `Umar: | Al-Hijr is accepted as this location by Islamic scholars.<ref>E.g. see tafsirs/commentaries [https://quranx.com/tafsirs/15.80 on verse 15:80]</ref> It is also mentioned once by name in Quran 15:80-83 ("the companions of al-Hijr") and its description and destruction matches that for Thamud.{{Quote|1={{Quran-range|15|80|83}}|2=And certainly did the companions of al-Hijr [ al-Hijr ٱلْحِجْرِ ] deny the messengers. And We gave them Our signs, but from them they were turning away. And they used to carve from the mountains, houses [ buyūtan بُيُوتًا ], feeling secure. But the shriek seized them at early morning.}}Al-Hijr is also identified in hadiths as the "al Hijr, land of Thamud" (al-hijr ardi Thamudi الْحِجْرِ أَرْضِ ثَمُودَ):{{Quote|{{Bukhari|||3379|darussalam}}|Narrated `Abdullah bin `Umar: | ||
The people landed at the land of Thamud called Al-Hijr along with Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and they took water from its well for drinking and kneading the dough with it as well. (When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) heard about it) he ordered them to pour out the water they had taken from its wells and feed the camels with the dough, and ordered them to take water from the well whence the she-camel (of Prophet Salih) used to drink.}} | The people landed at the land of Thamud called Al-Hijr along with Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and they took water from its well for drinking and kneading the dough with it as well. (When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) heard about it) he ordered them to pour out the water they had taken from its wells and feed the camels with the dough, and ordered them to take water from the well whence the she-camel (of Prophet Salih) used to drink.}} | ||
The Quran explicitly states that Thamud carved palaces from plains and homes from mountains:{{Quote|{{Quran-range|7|73|74}}|And to the Thamud [We sent] their brother Salih. He said, "O my people, worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him. There has come to you clear evidence from your Lord. This is the she-camel of Allah [sent] to you as a sign. So leave her to eat within Allah 's land and do not touch her with harm, lest there seize you a painful punishment. And remember when He made you successors after the 'Aad and settled you in the land, [and] '''you take for yourselves palaces from its plains and carve from the mountains, homes [ buyūtan بُيُوتًا <ref>[http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000317.pdf Lane's Lexicon p. 280 بيوت ]</ref>]'''. Then remember the favors of Allah and do not commit abuse on the earth, spreading corruption."}}{{Quote|{{Quran|26|149}}|And you carve out of the mountains, homes [ buyūtan بُيُوتًا ], with skill.}} | However, modern archaeology has confirmed that these were not homes or palaces but elaborately carved tombs.<ref name=":1">[https://whc.unesco.org/en/list/1293 Hegra Archaeological Site (al-Hijr / Madā ͐ in Ṣāliḥ)] - unesco.org (includes many photographs of the tombs)</ref> These tombs, over 100 in number, vary in size, with some being very large and others quite small. Even a 14th-century Arab traveller believed they contained the bones of the people of Thamud.<ref>[https://whc.unesco.org/document/168945 al-Hijr UNESCO nomination document] p.36 (includes detailed site description)</ref> | ||
The Quran explicitly states that Thamud carved palaces from plains and homes from mountains:{{Quote|{{Quran-range|7|73|74}}|And to the Thamud [We sent] their brother Salih. He said, "O my people, worship Allah; you have no deity other than Him. There has come to you clear evidence from your Lord. This is the she-camel of Allah [sent] to you as a sign. So leave her to eat within Allah 's land and do not touch her with harm, lest there seize you a painful punishment. And remember when He made you successors after the 'Aad and settled you in the land, [and] '''you take for yourselves palaces from its plains and carve from the mountains, homes [ buyūtan بُيُوتًا <ref>[http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume1/00000317.pdf Lane's Lexicon p. 280 بيوت ]</ref>]'''. Then remember the favors of Allah and do not commit abuse on the earth, spreading corruption."}}{{Quote|{{Quran|26|149}}|And you carve out of the mountains, homes [ buyūtan بُيُوتًا ], with skill.}} | |||
==== Built by the Nabateans, not the people of Thamūd ==== | ==== Built by the Nabateans, not the people of Thamūd ==== | ||
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Nabatean inscriptions at the site forbid opening the tombs, reusing them, or moving the bodies. The actual town of "al-Hijr / Hegra", where the people lived, was built of mud-brick and stone some distance from the surrounding rock-cut tombs.<ref>[https://www.arabnews.com/node/350178 History and mystery of Al-Hijr, ancient capital of the Nabateans in Arabia] - Arabnews.com</ref> This confirms that the elaborate structures in the mountains were not homes but were burial sites made by a later civilization. | Nabatean inscriptions at the site forbid opening the tombs, reusing them, or moving the bodies. The actual town of "al-Hijr / Hegra", where the people lived, was built of mud-brick and stone some distance from the surrounding rock-cut tombs.<ref>[https://www.arabnews.com/node/350178 History and mystery of Al-Hijr, ancient capital of the Nabateans in Arabia] - Arabnews.com</ref> This confirms that the elaborate structures in the mountains were not homes but were burial sites made by a later civilization. | ||
Despite this, the Qur'an presents the Thamud as the builders of these mountain structures, again linking their story to visible | Despite this, the Qur'an presents the Thamud as the builders of these mountain structures, again linking their story to visible abandoned artifacts which were still there as a lesson to reflect on;<ref name=":02" /> These were well known to Muhammad's listeners:{{Quote|{{Quran|29|38}}|And [We destroyed] 'Aad and Thamud, and it has become clear to you from their [ruined] dwellings [ masākinihim مَّسَٰكِنِهِمْ <ref>[http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000118.pdf Lane's Lexicon p. 1394 مسكن]</ref>]. And Satan had made pleasing to them their deeds and averted them from the path, and they were endowed with perception.}}{{Quote|{{Quran|89|9}}|And [with] Thamud, who carved out the rocks in the valley?}}The Nabateans are a distinct people from the Thamud, as evidenced in Arabic literature including the hadith which also distinguishes the [https://sunnah.com/search?q=nabatean Nabateans (al-Anbat)](e.g. {{Muslim||2613d|reference}}) from the [https://sunnah.com/search?q=thamud Thamud]. | ||
The | ==== Before the Time of Moses ==== | ||
The Qur'an references the Thamud as a people who lived and had already met their fate before the time of Pharaoh and Moses:{{Quote|{{Quran-range|40|28|37}}|And a believing man from the family of Pharaoh who concealed his faith said [...] And he who believed said, "O my people, indeed I fear for you [a fate] like the day of the companies - Like the custom of the people of Noah and of 'Aad and Thamud and those after them. And Allah wants no injustice for [His] servants.}} | |||
The companies / factions (l-aḥzābu) is a term used collectively for the list of destroyed cities also in {{Quran-range|38|12|14}}, with each people (umma) first warned by their own separate messenger (e.g. {{Quran|13|7}}).<ref>Durie, Mark. ''The Qur’an and Its Biblical Reflexes: Investigations into the Genesis of a Religion (pp. 127).'' Lexington Books.</ref> | |||
The | |||
On this basis the carved structures would have to pre-date Pharaoh and Moses since in the various verses quoted above, the Thamud carved their homes and palaces prior to their sudden end, having ignored the warnings of their prophet Salih. As noted above, these structures were actually tombs carved by the Nabateans between the 2nd century BCE to the 2nd century CE. | |||
Additionally, historical and archaeological evidence shows that the Thamud were an ancient but extinct Arabian people who existed from the 8th century BCE to the 5th century CE.<ref name=":2">[https://www.britannica.com/topic/Thamud Thamūd] (ancient Arabian tribe) - Peoples of Asia - Britannica | |||
''Thamūd, in ancient Arabia, tribe or group of tribes known to be extant from the 8th century bce to the 5th century ce..''</ref> Meanwhile, Moses is traditionally dated to the 14th–13th century BCE,<ref>[https://www.britannica.com/biography/Moses-Hebrew-prophet Moses] - Brittanica. Dewey M. Beegle. 2025 (last updated)</ref> though there is ongoing debate among historians about his existence and the exact timeline of early Israelite history. Nevertheless, even ignoring biblical and Islamic (but non-Quranic such as Tafsirs) writings, the most chronologically late estimates must place Moses' time to at least 900 - 850BCE as this is approximately when Israel's formation occurred,<ref>Finkelstein, Israel, (2020). "Saul and Highlands of Benjamin Update: The Role of Jerusalem", in Joachim J. Krause, Omer Sergi, and Kristin Weingart (eds.), Saul, Benjamin, and the Emergence of Monarchy in Israel: Biblical and Archaeological Perspectives, SBL Press, Atlanta, GA, p. 48, footnote 57: | ''Thamūd, in ancient Arabia, tribe or group of tribes known to be extant from the 8th century bce to the 5th century ce..''</ref> Meanwhile, Moses is traditionally dated to the 14th–13th century BCE,<ref>[https://www.britannica.com/biography/Moses-Hebrew-prophet Moses] - Brittanica. Dewey M. Beegle. 2025 (last updated)</ref> though there is ongoing debate among historians about his existence and the exact timeline of early Israelite history. Nevertheless, even ignoring biblical and Islamic (but non-Quranic such as Tafsirs) writings, the most chronologically late estimates must place Moses' time to at least 900 - 850BCE as this is approximately when Israel's formation occurred,<ref>Finkelstein, Israel, (2020). "Saul and Highlands of Benjamin Update: The Role of Jerusalem", in Joachim J. Krause, Omer Sergi, and Kristin Weingart (eds.), Saul, Benjamin, and the Emergence of Monarchy in Israel: Biblical and Archaeological Perspectives, SBL Press, Atlanta, GA, p. 48, footnote 57: | ||