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A Barrier Between Two Seas and the Cosmic Ocean: Difference between revisions
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A Barrier Between Two Seas and the Cosmic Ocean (view source)
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==== '''Estuaries and salt water''' ==== | ==== '''Estuaries and salt water''' ==== | ||
Seeking to accommodate modern understands of oceanography and water sciences, some modern Muslims claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them, and even that the descriptions show advanced knowledge of science that could not have been known to a person from the 7th century. The arguments on [https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm this site] | Seeking to accommodate modern understands of oceanography and water sciences, some modern Muslims claim that the Quran is referring to different bodies of water have different densities which causes them not to mix, creating a barrier between them, and even that the descriptions show advanced knowledge of science that could not have been known to a person from the 7th century. The arguments on [https://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-e.htm this site] are broadly representative of these views. | ||
The first claim is around fresh water from rivers meeting seas/oceans of salt water, with the transition stage known as [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary estuaries]: | The first claim is around fresh water from rivers meeting seas/oceans of salt water, with the transition stage known as [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary estuaries]: | ||
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===== Problems with miracle claim ===== | ===== Problems with miracle claim ===== | ||
The claim that this is a scientific miracle (or even scientifically accurate) is highly problematic: | The claim that this is a scientific miracle (or even scientifically accurate) is highly problematic: | ||
# Firstly, as with all claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clear<nowiki/>ly described a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into several typical categories used for these claims such as selective literalism, de-historicization and pseudo-correlation (''see [[Scientific Miracles in the Quran]]''), taking advantage of ambiguity in language to fit a modern reading. | # Firstly, as with all claims of scientific miracles in ancient scripture, nothing scientifically new was known/discovered from this verse as one would expect if it clear<nowiki/>ly described a new scientific fact - the method of 'discovering' falls into several typical categories used for these claims such as selective literalism, de-historicization and pseudo-correlation (''see [[Scientific Miracles in the Quran]]''), taking advantage of ambiguity in language to fit a modern reading. Nothing new was revealed, a previous discovery of science is being read into the ancient scripture. | ||
# The idea of the density of salt water being more than freshwater, separating the two was already known at least by the time of Aristotle ''(382 BC to 322 BC)''; ''“The drink''<nowiki/>''able, sweet water,'' ''l of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.”''<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref>, and the idea of the two not mixing is found in Judeo-Christian literature | # The idea of the density of salt water being more than freshwater, separating the two was already known at least by the time of Aristotle ''(382 BC to 322 BC)''; ''“The drink''<nowiki/>''able, sweet water,'' ''l of it drawn up: the salt water is heavy and remains behind.”''<ref>[https://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.2.ii.html Meteorology.] Aristotle. ~350BC</ref>, and the idea of the two not mixing is found in previous Judeo-Christian literature.<ref>E.g. See a Midrashic commentary [https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/518706?lang=bi composed around 500CE, the Bereshit Rabbah] ([https://www.sefaria.org/Bereshit_Rabbah.4.5?lang=bi&with=Chasidut&lang2=en Bereshit Rabbah 4:5]): | ||
''The firmament is similar to a lake and above the lake is a covering. From the from the lake heat condensation flows from the covering, '''and the condensation [as rain] descends to the midst of the salt waters [of the sea] and the rain does not mix itself [with the salt water].''' Rabbi Jonah said "do not be amazed, '''as it is the case that the Jordan River passes through the Sea of Tiberias (the Sea of Galilee) and it does not mix itself with it; this is a miraculous thing to say!''' A man sifting wheat or chaff in a sieve, the grains have not descended two or three finger-breadths and they have mixed together, '''but these [raindrops] have traveled and traveled year after year and have not mixed themselves [with salt water]."'''''And in the Gospel of James ([https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%203%3A10-12&version=NIV James 3:10-12]): | ''The firmament is similar to a lake and above the lake is a covering. From the from the lake heat condensation flows from the covering, '''and the condensation [as rain] descends to the midst of the salt waters [of the sea] and the rain does not mix itself [with the salt water].''' Rabbi Jonah said "do not be amazed, '''as it is the case that the Jordan River passes through the Sea of Tiberias (the Sea of Galilee) and it does not mix itself with it; this is a miraculous thing to say!''' A man sifting wheat or chaff in a sieve, the grains have not descended two or three finger-breadths and they have mixed together, '''but these [raindrops] have traveled and traveled year after year and have not mixed themselves [with salt water]."'''''And in the Gospel of James ([https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James%203%3A10-12&version=NIV James 3:10-12]): | ||
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</ref> | </ref> | ||
# This description is so basic and lacking any actual | # This description is so basic and lacking any actual, concrete scientific description (i.e. God creates a barrier between two seas which stops them merging), it could e<nowiki/>asily apply to someone sailing nearby or over one of these and passing on the descriptions as humans have sailed since ancient times,<ref>''[https://www.bu.edu/archaeology/files/2016/05/Ancient-mariners-may-have-set-sail-130000-years-ago-_-Register-_-The-Times-The-Sunday-Times.pdf Ancient mariners may have set sail 130,000 years ago].'' ARCHAEOLOGY. The Times. Norman Hammond. 2016. Boston University Archive</ref> and the colors are often different (as seen in the image on this page), leading people to assume there was an actual barrier placed by God between the two waters. | ||
# This description implies there is no mixing between them at all, and could just as easily be written by someone incorrectly believing this. | # This description implies there is no mixing between them at all, and could just as easily be written by someone incorrectly believing this; indeed, this is a cogent interpretation of the text itself. | ||
===== Problems with general accuracy ===== | ===== Problems with general accuracy ===== | ||
We are told that there are specifically '''the''' '''two seas (al-baḥrayni).''' | We are told that there are specifically '''the''' '''two seas (al-baḥrayni).''' | ||