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Dhul-Qarnayn and the Sun Setting in a Muddy Spring - Part One: Difference between revisions
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Dhul-Qarnayn and the Sun Setting in a Muddy Spring - Part One (view source)
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The only place in the hadith<ref name="hadith"></ref> where matliAA might seem to be used in an idiom meaning the east is in Sahih Muslim: | The only place in the hadith<ref name="hadith"></ref> where matliAA might seem to be used in an idiom meaning the east is in Sahih Muslim: | ||
{{Quote|{{Muslim|1|91}}|…The belief is that of the Yemenites, the sagacity is that of the Yemenites, the tranquillity is among the owners of goats and sheep, and pride and conceitedness is among the uncivil owners of the camels, the people of the tents in the direction of sunrise. | {{Quote|{{Muslim|1|91}}|…The belief is that of the Yemenites, the sagacity is that of the Yemenites, the tranquillity is among the owners of goats and sheep, and pride and conceitedness is among the uncivil owners of the camels, the people of the tents in the direction of sunrise.}} | ||
Here, qibala means direction and matliAAi a'''l'''shshamsi is translated as “of sunrise”, literally meaning the direction of the rising-place of the sun. The very next hadith is another version of the same hadith: | Here, qibala means direction and matliAAi a'''l'''shshamsi is translated as “of sunrise”, literally meaning the direction of the rising-place of the sun. The very next hadith is another version of the same hadith: | ||
{{Quote|{{Muslim|1|92}}|The belief is that of the Yemenites, the sagacity is that of the Yemenites and the summit of unbelief is towards the East. | {{Quote|{{Muslim|1|92}}|The belief is that of the Yemenites, the sagacity is that of the Yemenites and the summit of unbelief is towards the East.}} | ||
This version of the hadith ends with “qibala almashriqi”, translated, “towards the East”. As mentioned above, al mashriq usually appears as an idiom to mean the east. It seems easy at first to argue that just as almashriq means the east in one version of this hadith, matliAAi a'''l'''shshamsi just means the east rather than the rising-place of the sun in the other version. However, even if almashriq means the east in Sahih Muslim Book 1, Number 92 (rather than literally, “the rising point”, as in Qur’an 37:5 and 70:40), both the east and the imagined setting-place of the sun would be in the same direction. These hadith only show that the directions (“qibala”) of these two things (“matliAAi a'''l'''shshamsi” and “almashriq”) are interchangeable. | This version of the hadith ends with “qibala almashriqi”, translated, “towards the East”. As mentioned above, al mashriq usually appears as an idiom to mean the east. It seems easy at first to argue that just as almashriq means the east in one version of this hadith, matliAAi a'''l'''shshamsi just means the east rather than the rising-place of the sun in the other version. However, even if almashriq means the east in Sahih Muslim Book 1, Number 92 (rather than literally, “the rising point”, as in Qur’an 37:5 and 70:40), both the east and the imagined setting-place of the sun would be in the same direction. These hadith only show that the directions (“qibala”) of these two things (“matliAAi a'''l'''shshamsi” and “almashriq”) are interchangeable. | ||
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Furthermore, the commentators not only give the invented interpretation, but they also have to deny the literal setting and rising places interpretation (or for al-Qurtubi and Ibn Kathir, a caricature of it), thus confirming that the place where the sun sets on Earth was the interpretation that had been understood by Muslims before scientific knowledge was acquired later. | Furthermore, the commentators not only give the invented interpretation, but they also have to deny the literal setting and rising places interpretation (or for al-Qurtubi and Ibn Kathir, a caricature of it), thus confirming that the place where the sun sets on Earth was the interpretation that had been understood by Muslims before scientific knowledge was acquired later. | ||
We should briefly discuss the passage relating to Dhu’l Qarnayn in [[Sirat Rasul Allah]] (''Life of the Messenger of God'') by Ibn Ishaq (died mid 8<sup>th</sup> century CE and was the first biographer of Muhammad), which survives in a copied and edited version by Ibn Hisham (died 833 CE). It describes the story of Dhu’l Qarnayn in a passage about the occasion Sura al kahf was revealed. We are told that Muhammad’s enemies challenged him to tell them about “the mighty traveler who reached the confines of both East and West. ” literally, “the easts of the Earth and the wests of it”<ref>For an English translation read: Guillaume, A., The Life of Muhammad, p. 137 & p.139 London: Oxford University Press, 1955</ref> (…mashariqa alardi wamagharibaha…).<ref> For the Arabic, see s302: [http://sirah.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=204&TOCID=242&BookID=160&PID=331 here]</ref> | We should briefly discuss the passage relating to Dhu’l Qarnayn in [[Sirat Rasul Allah]] (''Life of the Messenger of God'') by Ibn Ishaq (died mid 8<sup>th</sup> century CE and was the first biographer of Muhammad), which survives in a copied and edited version by Ibn Hisham (died 833 CE). It describes the story of Dhu’l Qarnayn in a passage about the occasion Sura al kahf was revealed. We are told that Muhammad’s enemies challenged him to tell them about “the mighty traveler who reached the confines of both East and West. ” literally, “the easts of the Earth and the wests of it”<ref>For an English translation read: Guillaume, A., The Life of Muhammad, p. 137 & p.139 London: Oxford University Press, 1955</ref> (…mashariqa alardi wamagharibaha…).<ref> For the Arabic, see s302: [https://web.archive.org/web/20160409080731/http://sirah.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=204&TOCID=242&BookID=160&PID=331 here]</ref> | ||
The same Arabic phrase occurs again shortly afterwards in this passage: | The same Arabic phrase occurs again shortly afterwards in this passage: | ||
{{Quote||Roads were stretched out before him until he traversed the whole earth, east and west. He was given power over every land he trod on until he reached [the end of the east and the west, to] the farthest confines of creation.<ref>Guillaume op. cit. p.139. For the Arabic, see s307: [http://sirah.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=204&TOCID=242&BookID=160&PID=337 here]</ref>}} | {{Quote||Roads were stretched out before him until he traversed the whole earth, east and west. He was given power over every land he trod on until he reached [the end of the east and the west, to] the farthest confines of creation.<ref>Guillaume op. cit. p.139. For the Arabic, see s307: [https://web.archive.org/web/20140111231304/http://sirah.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=204&TOCID=242&BookID=160&PID=337 here]</ref>}} | ||
The square brackets show a 3<sup>rd</sup> instance of almashriq and almaghrib (this time singular), which is omitted in the quoted translation. | The square brackets show a 3<sup>rd</sup> instance of almashriq and almaghrib (this time singular), which is omitted in the quoted translation. | ||
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Dr Zakir Naik, a prominent Muslim public speaker, claims that “balagha maghriba alshshamsi” means “he reached at the time of sunset”,<ref>lnvestigatelslam - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-dad389i4c Scientific Error in Quran SUN SETTING IN MURKY WATER!!?] - YouTube</ref> and another interpretation appears on Osama Abdallah’s website, that it means “he reached the time of sunset”.<ref name="Answering Christianity">[http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.answering-christianity.com%2Fsunrise_sunset.htm&date=2013-11-26 Did the Noble Quran really say that the sun sets and rises on earth?] - Answering Christianity</ref> In support of the time interpretation is the fact that both maghrib and matliAA can be used as an ism zaman (a noun to indicate the time that a verb happens). Maghrib is not used as an ism zaman anywhere in the Qur’an, but outside the Qur’an, al maghrib is the name given to the prayer that takes place at the time of sunset (one of the 5 daily prayers for Muslims). The phrase maghriba alshshamsi is also used to mean the time of sunset in two hadith, each with two versions (maghrib has an “-i” suffix here as it follows a preposition): | Dr Zakir Naik, a prominent Muslim public speaker, claims that “balagha maghriba alshshamsi” means “he reached at the time of sunset”,<ref>lnvestigatelslam - [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-dad389i4c Scientific Error in Quran SUN SETTING IN MURKY WATER!!?] - YouTube</ref> and another interpretation appears on Osama Abdallah’s website, that it means “he reached the time of sunset”.<ref name="Answering Christianity">[http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.answering-christianity.com%2Fsunrise_sunset.htm&date=2013-11-26 Did the Noble Quran really say that the sun sets and rises on earth?] - Answering Christianity</ref> In support of the time interpretation is the fact that both maghrib and matliAA can be used as an ism zaman (a noun to indicate the time that a verb happens). Maghrib is not used as an ism zaman anywhere in the Qur’an, but outside the Qur’an, al maghrib is the name given to the prayer that takes place at the time of sunset (one of the 5 daily prayers for Muslims). The phrase maghriba alshshamsi is also used to mean the time of sunset in two hadith, each with two versions (maghrib has an “-i” suffix here as it follows a preposition): | ||
{{Quote|{{Bukhari|4|56|665}}|…bayna salati alAAasri ila maghribi a'''l'''shshamsi… | {{Quote|{{Bukhari|4|56|665}}|…bayna salati alAAasri ila maghribi a'''l'''shshamsi…<BR><BR>…between the ‘Asr prayer and sunset…}} | ||
The other version of this hadith is {{Bukhari|6|61|539}}. | The other version of this hadith is {{Bukhari|6|61|539}}. | ||
Sahih Muslim has the following: | Sahih Muslim has the following: | ||
{{Quote|{{Muslim|41|7028}}|…hatta maghribi a'''l'''shshamsi… | {{Quote|{{Muslim|41|7028}}|…hatta maghribi a'''l'''shshamsi…<BR><BR>…at the time of sunset…}} | ||
There is one example in the Qur’an where matliAA is used as an ism zaman. Verse 97:5 has, “…hatta matlaAAi alfajr'''i'''” (“…until the rise of morn”). | There is one example in the Qur’an where matliAA is used as an ism zaman. Verse 97:5 has, “…hatta matlaAAi alfajr'''i'''” (“…until the rise of morn”). | ||
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Similar phrases are used many times in the hadith. For example: | Similar phrases are used many times in the hadith. For example: | ||
{{Quote|{{Muslim|4|1805}}|…hatta taghruba a'''l'''shshamsu … hatta tatluAAa a'''l'''shshamsu.<BR><BR>…till the sun sets … till the sun rises. | {{Quote|{{Muslim|4|1805}}|…hatta taghruba a'''l'''shshamsu … hatta tatluAAa a'''l'''shshamsu.<BR><BR>…till the sun sets … till the sun rises.}} | ||
The other way that the time of sunrise is referred to in the Qur’an uses the verb ashraqa, “to (sun)rise” in the form of an active participle or verbal noun as in the following verses: | The other way that the time of sunrise is referred to in the Qur’an uses the verb ashraqa, “to (sun)rise” in the form of an active participle or verbal noun as in the following verses: | ||
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There are numerous hadith relating to the end of the world and use these phrases. See for example: | There are numerous hadith relating to the end of the world and use these phrases. See for example: | ||
{{Quote|{{Muslim|1|294}}|…tatluAAa a'''l'''shshamsu min maghribiha… | {{Quote|{{Muslim|1|294}}|…tatluAAa a'''l'''shshamsu min maghribiha…<BR><BR>…the sun rises from the place of its setting…}} | ||
Similarly, Sahih Muslim has the following: | Similarly, Sahih Muslim has the following: | ||
{{Quote|{{Muslim|1|296}}|…tulooAAu a'''l'''shshamsi min maghribiha… | {{Quote|{{Muslim|1|296}}|…tulooAAu a'''l'''shshamsi min maghribiha…<BR><BR>…the rising of the sun [from] its place of setting.}} | ||
The next hadith has, even more significantly: | The next hadith has, even more significantly: | ||
{{Quote|{{Muslim|1|297}}|…Do you know where the sun goes? […] Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place […] Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting… | {{Quote|{{Muslim|1|297}}|…Do you know where the sun goes? […] Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place […] Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting…}} | ||
Here, “mina matliAAiha” is translated as “from its rising place”, “mina maghribiki” as “from the place of your setting” (so the sun is commanded to go somewhere – it cannot be claimed that this is an idiomatic way of commanding the Earth to rotate), and “mina maghribiha” as “from the place of its setting”, all in reference to a'''l'''shshamsu, “the sun”. Maghribiha and maghribiki can only mean the sun’s setting-place. The hadith would have just used “mina almaghribi” if the meaning had just been “from the west”. | Here, “mina matliAAiha” is translated as “from its rising place”, “mina maghribiki” as “from the place of your setting” (so the sun is commanded to go somewhere – it cannot be claimed that this is an idiomatic way of commanding the Earth to rotate), and “mina maghribiha” as “from the place of its setting”, all in reference to a'''l'''shshamsu, “the sun”. Maghribiha and maghribiki can only mean the sun’s setting-place. The hadith would have just used “mina almaghribi” if the meaning had just been “from the west”. | ||
There is some inconsistency about the way the English translators of Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari translate maghribiha in other versions of the same hadith. See the footnotes for a discussion of this.<ref>It should be noted that while A. Siddiqui translates maghribiha in Sahih Muslim as “the place of its setting”, M. Khan translates maghribiha as “the west” in exactly the same Arabic phrases for the versions in Sahih Bukhari of the above quoted hadith. MatliAAiha does not appear in Sahih Bukhari so Khan did not have to translate that word. However, when M. Khan (this time with M. al-Hilali) later translated the Qur’an, maghriba a'''l'''shshamsi in 18:86 and matliAAa a'''l'''shshamsi in 18:90 are translated as “the setting place of the sun” and “the rising place of the sun”.<BR><BR>A. Siddiqui, whose translation of Sahih Muslim is used in the main text, also translates maghribiha as “the west” in the exact same Arabic phrases about the sun at the end of the world for seven other hadith in Sahih Muslim. These do not mention the rising place. He could not attempt to translate this as “the west” in the above quoted hadith because of the “your setting place” phrase and references nearby to the rising place using matliAAa, which as we saw earlier, never means east. The motivation for translating maghribiha as the west in the other hadith is probably to make it fit with Qur’an 2:258:<BR><BR>…‘But it is Allah that causeth the sun to rise from the east: Do thou then cause him to rise from the west.’…<BR><BR>…fainna Allaha yatee bi'''al'''shshamsi mina almashriqi fati biha mina almaghribi… - Qur’an 2:258<BR><BR>Here, almaghribi does not have the -ha suffix, so indeed it can just mean the west. The -i suffix is there because a noun following a preposition (mina means “from”) takes the genitive case.<BR><BR>There is another obvious motivation for translating maghribiha as “the west” rather than “its setting place”. This way the phrase can be interpreted as a figure of speech (with a literal meaning that the Earth’s rotation will reverse), thus saving those important hadith (except when they clearly say “your setting place”) from conflict with scientific knowledge unknown to Muhammad. We saw how some commentators (and some translators) reinterpreted verse 18:86 for the same reason.<BR><BR>These are the four hadith where Khan translates maghribiha (“its setting place”) as “the west”. It is clear from the use of the 3rd person (and in other versions, 2nd person) possessive endings that a more specific translation, “its setting place” would have been justified.<BR><BR>{{Bukhari|4|54|421}} | There is some inconsistency about the way the English translators of Sahih Muslim and Sahih Bukhari translate maghribiha in other versions of the same hadith. See the footnotes for a discussion of this.<ref>It should be noted that while A. Siddiqui translates maghribiha in Sahih Muslim as “the place of its setting”, M. Khan translates maghribiha as “the west” in exactly the same Arabic phrases for the versions in Sahih Bukhari of the above quoted hadith. MatliAAiha does not appear in Sahih Bukhari so Khan did not have to translate that word. However, when M. Khan (this time with M. al-Hilali) later translated the Qur’an, maghriba a'''l'''shshamsi in 18:86 and matliAAa a'''l'''shshamsi in 18:90 are translated as “the setting place of the sun” and “the rising place of the sun”.<BR><BR>A. Siddiqui, whose translation of Sahih Muslim is used in the main text, also translates maghribiha as “the west” in the exact same Arabic phrases about the sun at the end of the world for seven other hadith in Sahih Muslim. These do not mention the rising place. He could not attempt to translate this as “the west” in the above quoted hadith because of the “your setting place” phrase and references nearby to the rising place using matliAAa, which as we saw earlier, never means east. The motivation for translating maghribiha as the west in the other hadith is probably to make it fit with Qur’an 2:258:<BR><BR>…‘But it is Allah that causeth the sun to rise from the east: Do thou then cause him to rise from the west.’…<BR><BR>…fainna Allaha yatee bi'''al'''shshamsi mina almashriqi fati biha mina almaghribi… - Qur’an 2:258<BR><BR>Here, almaghribi does not have the -ha suffix, so indeed it can just mean the west. The -i suffix is there because a noun following a preposition (mina means “from”) takes the genitive case.<BR><BR>There is another obvious motivation for translating maghribiha as “the west” rather than “its setting place”. This way the phrase can be interpreted as a figure of speech (with a literal meaning that the Earth’s rotation will reverse), thus saving those important hadith (except when they clearly say “your setting place”) from conflict with scientific knowledge unknown to Muhammad. We saw how some commentators (and some translators) reinterpreted verse 18:86 for the same reason.<BR><BR>These are the four hadith where Khan translates maghribiha (“its setting place”) as “the west”. It is clear from the use of the 3rd person (and in other versions, 2nd person) possessive endings that a more specific translation, “its setting place” would have been justified.<BR><BR>{{Bukhari|4|54|421}}, {{Bukhari|6|60|159}}, {{Bukhari|6|60|160}}, {{Bukhari|9|93|520}}</ref> | ||
Finally, we have examples of matliAAa a'''l'''shshamsi meaning the rising-place of the sun in Sahih Muslim Book 1, Number 91 (discussed above) and in Sunan Al-Nasa-I, which has the phrase: | Finally, we have examples of matliAAa a'''l'''shshamsi meaning the rising-place of the sun in Sahih Muslim Book 1, Number 91 (discussed above) and in Sunan Al-Nasa-I, which has the phrase: | ||
{{Quote||…qala bilalun ana fastaqbala matliAAa a'''l'''shshamsi… | {{Quote|{{Al Nasai||1|6|625}}|…qala bilalun ana fastaqbala matliAAa a'''l'''shshamsi…<BR><BR>…Bilal said, “I will”. He turned to face the direction where the sun woke them up…}} | ||
A literal translation would be “Bilal said, 'I will'. So he faced the rising-place of the sun…”<ref>This is also how fastaqbala (derived from qabala) is translated in hadith such as {{Muslim|7|2803}} (“facing qibla”, “fastaqbala alqiblata”).</ref> | |||
Another example is found in a hadith in ''Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal'', which says that faith in Allah alone, then [[Jihad|jihad]], then [[Hajj|hajj]] are as preferable to other work as the distance between the rising place of the sun to the setting place of it (“kama bayna matlaAAi a'''l'''shshamsi ila maghribiha”).<ref>For the Arabic, see #18531 [http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=192&TOCID=767&BookID=30&PID=18241 here]</ref> | It describes how Bilal volunteered to stay up to make sure the dawn prayer was not missed. He faced the rising place of the sun, but it only awakened them when it hit their ears and is similar to {{Muslim|4|1448}}. | ||
Another example is found in a hadith in ''Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal'', which says that faith in Allah alone, then [[Jihad|jihad]], then [[Hajj|hajj]] are as preferable to other work as the distance between the rising place of the sun to the setting place of it (“kama bayna matlaAAi a'''l'''shshamsi ila maghribiha”).<ref>For the Arabic, see #18531 [https://web.archive.org/web/20160409051317/http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=192&TOCID=767&BookID=30&PID=18241 here]</ref> | |||
The evidence is that wherever matliAA and maghrib are followed by a'''l'''shshamsi (or indirectly as when a'''l'''shshamsu is the referent of matliAAiha and maghribiha in the hadith), then the phrases mean the rising place of the sun and the setting place (or occasionally setting time, but maybe not rising time) of the sun. A'''l'''shshamsi is probably added to maghrib to avoid the ambiguity that would arise if just al maghriba without a'''l'''shshamsi is used, since that can be an idiom for the west. | The evidence is that wherever matliAA and maghrib are followed by a'''l'''shshamsi (or indirectly as when a'''l'''shshamsu is the referent of matliAAiha and maghribiha in the hadith), then the phrases mean the rising place of the sun and the setting place (or occasionally setting time, but maybe not rising time) of the sun. A'''l'''shshamsi is probably added to maghrib to avoid the ambiguity that would arise if just al maghriba without a'''l'''shshamsi is used, since that can be an idiom for the west. | ||
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We saw above some of the hadith that describe the sun having setting and rising places which it goes into and comes out from. The following hadith is graded Sahih (authentic) by Dar-us-Salam (Hafiz Zubair 'Ali Za'i) and has a chain of narration graded as Sahih by al-Albani. It is from Sunan Abu Dawud, book XXV - Kitab Al-Ahruf Wa Al-Qira’at (Book of Dialects and Readings Of The Qur’an): | We saw above some of the hadith that describe the sun having setting and rising places which it goes into and comes out from. The following hadith is graded Sahih (authentic) by Dar-us-Salam (Hafiz Zubair 'Ali Za'i) and has a chain of narration graded as Sahih by al-Albani. It is from Sunan Abu Dawud, book XXV - Kitab Al-Ahruf Wa Al-Qira’at (Book of Dialects and Readings Of The Qur’an): | ||
{{Quote||Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.<ref>Kitab Al-Ahruf Wa Al-Qira’at [Book of Dialects and Readings Of The Qur’an], Chapter 1498, p. 1120 in Prof. Ahmad Hasan (trans.), Sunan Abu Dawud – English Translation With Explanatory Notes, Volume III. Chapters 1338-1890, XXV, hadith 3991, Lahore: Sh. Muhammad Ashraf, 1984 quoted in [http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/mhmd_on_sunset.html Muhammad and the Sun’s Setting Place] - Sam Shamoun, Answering Islam</ref> [The references section includes a link to the Arabic<ref>For | {{Quote|{{Abudawud||3991|hasan}}|Abu Dharr said: I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where this sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: It sets in a spring of warm water.<ref>Kitab Al-Ahruf Wa Al-Qira’at [Book of Dialects and Readings Of The Qur’an], Chapter 1498, p. 1120 in Prof. Ahmad Hasan (trans.), Sunan Abu Dawud – English Translation With Explanatory Notes, Volume III. Chapters 1338-1890, XXV, hadith 3991, Lahore: Sh. Muhammad Ashraf, 1984 quoted in [http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/mhmd_on_sunset.html Muhammad and the Sun’s Setting Place] - Sam Shamoun, Answering Islam</ref> [The references section includes a link to the Arabic with sahih in chain grading<ref>For the Arabic, English, and grading by al-Albani, see [http://sunnah.com/abudawud/32/34 here]</ref>]}} | ||
There is also another version of the hadith in Musnad Ahmad (this time the spring is muddy rather than warm - the Arabic words sound similar and the same variant readings exist for Qur’an verse 18:86). The same hadith is also recorded by al-Zamakhshari (1075-1143 CE) in his commentary on the Qur’an, al-Kashshaf.<ref>For a translation see Al-Zamakhshari, Al-Kashshaf 3rd Edition, Volume 2, p. 743, Lebanon: Dar Al-Kotob Al-Ilmiyah, 1987 quoted in (trans.) [http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Shabir-Ally/science11.htm Science in the Quran/ Chapter 11: The Sun & Moon and Their Orbits] - Sam Shamoun, Answering Islam (''The phrase translated “spring of slimy water” is actually, “hot spring” in the Arabic. For the Arabic, click [http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=2&tSoraNo=18&tAyahNo=86&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1 here]'')</ref> Even if one doubts that this is an authentic report about Muhammad, it is certainly further evidence that early Muslims understood 18:86 to mean a literal setting place. The possibility that Muhammad ever claimed a different interpretation thus further diminishes. | There is also another version of the hadith in Musnad Ahmad (this time the spring is muddy rather than warm - the Arabic words sound similar and the same variant readings exist for Qur’an verse 18:86). The same hadith is also recorded by al-Zamakhshari (1075-1143 CE) in his commentary on the Qur’an, al-Kashshaf.<ref>For a translation see Al-Zamakhshari, Al-Kashshaf 3rd Edition, Volume 2, p. 743, Lebanon: Dar Al-Kotob Al-Ilmiyah, 1987 quoted in (trans.) [http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Shabir-Ally/science11.htm Science in the Quran/ Chapter 11: The Sun & Moon and Their Orbits] - Sam Shamoun, Answering Islam (''The phrase translated “spring of slimy water” is actually, “hot spring” in the Arabic. For the Arabic, click [http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=2&tSoraNo=18&tAyahNo=86&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1 here]'')</ref> Even if one doubts that this is an authentic report about Muhammad, it is certainly further evidence that early Muslims understood 18:86 to mean a literal setting place. The possibility that Muhammad ever claimed a different interpretation thus further diminishes. | ||
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Shamoun and Katz quote al-Tabari’s commentary (tafsir) on the Qur’an, in which he says at the beginning of his commentary on 18:86: | Shamoun and Katz quote al-Tabari’s commentary (tafsir) on the Qur’an, in which he says at the beginning of his commentary on 18:86: | ||
{{Quote||The meaning of the Almighty’s saying, ‘Until he reached the place of the setting of the sun he found it set in a spring of murky water,’ is as follows:<BR><BR>When the Almighty says, ‘Until he reached,’ He is addressing Zul-Qarnain. Concerning the verse, ‘the place of the setting of the sun he found it set in a spring of murky water,’ the people differed on how to pronounce that verse. Some of the people of Madina and Basra read it as ‘Hami’a spring,’ meaning that the sun sets in a spring that contains mud. While a group of the people of Medina and the majority of the people of Kufa read it as, ‘Hamiya spring’ meaning that the sun sets in a spring of warm water. The people of commentary have differed on the meaning of this depending on the way they read the verse.<ref name="Answering Islam"></ref><ref name="Al-Tabari">For the Arabic | {{Quote||The meaning of the Almighty’s saying, ‘Until he reached the place of the setting of the sun he found it set in a spring of murky water,’ is as follows:<BR><BR>When the Almighty says, ‘Until he reached,’ He is addressing Zul-Qarnain. Concerning the verse, ‘the place of the setting of the sun he found it set in a spring of murky water,’ the people differed on how to pronounce that verse. Some of the people of Madina and Basra read it as ‘Hami’a spring,’ meaning that the sun sets in a spring that contains mud. While a group of the people of Medina and the majority of the people of Kufa read it as, ‘Hamiya spring’ meaning that the sun sets in a spring of warm water. The people of commentary have differed on the meaning of this depending on the way they read the verse.<ref name="Answering Islam"></ref><ref name="Al-Tabari">For the Arabic see [http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=1&tSoraNo=18&tAyahNo=86&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1 here]</ref>}} | ||
The end of the 3<sup>rd</sup> and 2<sup>nd</sup> from last sentences literally say, “In other words: it sets in a spring of muddy water” and, “That is to say that it sets in a spring of hot water”. Notice he omits wajada (“he found”) in these sentences. His ensuing discussion reports the uncertainty as to which Arabic word was used to describe the spring (muddy or hot), incidentally revealing that the sun setting in some kind of spring was understood literally. These variant readings continue to be recited today, and translators take different choices between muddy, hot, or both. | The end of the 3<sup>rd</sup> and 2<sup>nd</sup> from last sentences literally say, “In other words: it sets in a spring of muddy water” and, “That is to say that it sets in a spring of hot water”. Notice he omits wajada (“he found”) in these sentences. His ensuing discussion reports the uncertainty as to which Arabic word was used to describe the spring (muddy or hot), incidentally revealing that the sun setting in some kind of spring was understood literally. These variant readings continue to be recited today, and translators take different choices between muddy, hot, or both. | ||
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{{Quote||Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-A'la narrated and said: Marwan ibn Mu'awiya narrated from Warqa, he said: I heard Sa’id bin Jubair say Ibn ‘Abbas had read this word as “in a spring hamiatin”. And he said, “the sun sets in black mud”. | {{Quote||Muhammad ibn 'Abd al-A'la narrated and said: Marwan ibn Mu'awiya narrated from Warqa, he said: I heard Sa’id bin Jubair say Ibn ‘Abbas had read this word as “in a spring hamiatin”. And he said, “the sun sets in black mud”. | ||
And others said instead “it disappears in a hot spring”.<ref>For the Arabic | And others said instead “it disappears in a hot spring”.<ref>For the Arabic see [http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=1&tSoraNo=18&tAyahNo=86&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1 here]</ref>}} | ||
The phrase reported of ‘Ibn Abbas is word for word, “And he said mud black, it sets in it, the sun”). Abu Salih, another companion of Ibn ‘Abbas, made a very similar report narrated through another chain recorded by al-Farra (d. 822 CE) in his Ma'ani al-Qur'an regarding this verse: | The phrase reported of ‘Ibn Abbas is word for word, “And he said mud black, it sets in it, the sun”). Abu Salih, another companion of Ibn ‘Abbas, made a very similar report narrated through another chain recorded by al-Farra (d. 822 CE) in his Ma'ani al-Qur'an regarding this verse: | ||
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{{Quote||al-Farra narrated from Hibban, from al-Kalbi, from Abu Salih, from Ibn ‘Abbas "muddy". He said, "It sets in a black spring".<ref>al-Farra, Ma'ani al-Qur'an for verse 18:86 al-makhaba.org https://al-maktaba.org/book/23634/679</ref>}} | {{Quote||al-Farra narrated from Hibban, from al-Kalbi, from Abu Salih, from Ibn ‘Abbas "muddy". He said, "It sets in a black spring".<ref>al-Farra, Ma'ani al-Qur'an for verse 18:86 al-makhaba.org https://al-maktaba.org/book/23634/679</ref>}} | ||
Al-Tabari's commentary for the 18:86 includes yet further reports such that Ibn ‘Abbas and another companion disagreed on whether the spring was hot or muddy. They sent to Ka'b al-Ahbar, who according to various accounts said, "As for the sun, it becomes hidden in tha'at" (which al-Tabari defines as mud), or he said, "It becomes hidden in black mud". | Al-Tabari's commentary for the 18:86 includes yet further reports such that Ibn ‘Abbas and another companion disagreed on whether the spring was hot or muddy. They sent to Ka'b al-Ahbar, who according to various accounts said, "As for the sun, it becomes hidden in tha'at" (which al-Tabari defines as mud), or he said, "It becomes hidden in black mud". For another translation of al-Tabari's tafsir for 18:86 in full, see [https://theislamissue.wordpress.com/2022/03/23/tafsir-al-tabari-for-q1886/ here]. | ||
We can clearly see from al-Tabari’s commentary that it was understood by early Muslim communities that 18:86 meant that the sun actually sets in a spring. We can also imply from this that they understood the verse to say that Dhul Qarnayn reached the place where the sun sets. | We can clearly see from al-Tabari’s commentary that it was understood by early Muslim communities that 18:86 meant that the sun actually sets in a spring. We can also imply from this that they understood the verse to say that Dhul Qarnayn reached the place where the sun sets. | ||
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Till on Judgement Day they shall awake at last<ref>Hāssan b. Thābit quoted in R. A. Nicholson (transl.), [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LBY0AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA18#v=onepage&q&f=false A Literary History of the Arabs], p. 18, Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 1907</ref>}} | Till on Judgement Day they shall awake at last<ref>Hāssan b. Thābit quoted in R. A. Nicholson (transl.), [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LBY0AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA18#v=onepage&q&f=false A Literary History of the Arabs], p. 18, Cambridge, UK: Cambridge University Press, 1907</ref>}} | ||
As we can see, a literal setting in a spring is mentioned (in the Arabic those lines are literally, “he followed the sun nearby its sunset to observe it in its spring while lowly”).<ref>The Arabic text which Nicholson translates is from: Von Kremer, Alfred, [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TsAoAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false Altarabische Gedichte uber die Volkssage von Jemen, als Textbelege zur Abhandlung] “Ueber die sudarabische Sage.”, pp.15-16, VIII, lines 6-11, 1867</ref> See also the poem at the end of section 6.5.1 above for another example. We only have these poems from Islamic sources, so it is possible that they were composed or edited after Muhammad’s death. Even if that is so, they still demonstrate how the story was understood in the early Islamic era. | As we can see, a literal setting in a spring is mentioned (in the Arabic those lines are literally, “he followed the sun nearby its sunset to observe it in its spring while lowly”).<ref>The Arabic text which Nicholson translates is from: Von Kremer, Alfred, [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=TsAoAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false Altarabische Gedichte uber die Volkssage von Jemen, als Textbelege zur Abhandlung] “Ueber die sudarabische Sage.”, pp.15-16, VIII, lines 6-11, 1867<BR/>See also [https://web.archive.org/web/20170713044809/http://www.ye1.org/forum/threads/34164 here] for the arabic text of the poem</ref> See also the poem at the end of section 6.5.1 above for another example. We only have these poems from Islamic sources, so it is possible that they were composed or edited after Muhammad’s death. Even if that is so, they still demonstrate how the story was understood in the early Islamic era. | ||
The above hadith, tafsir (commentaries), legends and poetry, are strong circumstantial evidence that the literal setting of the sun in a spring and a literal rising of the sun are the intended meanings in the Qur’an’s version of the same story. Otherwise there would surely be some sign of an alternative interpretation among these early sources given that there was clearly great interest in the story, and Muhammad would have corrected any misunderstanding when people asked him about it. | The above hadith, tafsir (commentaries), legends and poetry, are strong circumstantial evidence that the literal setting of the sun in a spring and a literal rising of the sun are the intended meanings in the Qur’an’s version of the same story. Otherwise there would surely be some sign of an alternative interpretation among these early sources given that there was clearly great interest in the story, and Muhammad would have corrected any misunderstanding when people asked him about it. | ||
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If this phrase meant to say that the sun moves in a circle around the galactic center or around the Earth, then it would apparently preclude the existence of setting and rising places. Tafsir Ibn kathir comments on 36:40: | If this phrase meant to say that the sun moves in a circle around the galactic center or around the Earth, then it would apparently preclude the existence of setting and rising places. Tafsir Ibn kathir comments on 36:40: | ||
{{Quote||(They all float, each in an orbit.) means, night and day, the sun and the moon, all of them are floating, i.e., revolving, in their orbits in the heaven. This was the view of Ibn ‘Abbas, `Ikrimah, Ad-Dahhak, Al-Hasan, Qatadah and `Ata’ Al-Khurasani. Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, and others among the Salaf said, “In an orbit like the arc of a spinning wheel.”<ref name="Tafsir Ibn Kathir">[http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1487 Among the Signs of the Might and Power of Allah are the Night and Day, and the Sun and Moon] - Tafsir Ibn Kathir</ref>}} | {{Quote||(They all float, each in an orbit.) means, night and day, the sun and the moon, all of them are floating, i.e., revolving, in their orbits in the heaven. This was the view of Ibn ‘Abbas, `Ikrimah, Ad-Dahhak, Al-Hasan, Qatadah and `Ata’ Al-Khurasani. Ibn `Abbas, may Allah be pleased with him, and others among the Salaf said, “In an orbit like the arc of a spinning wheel.”<ref name="Tafsir Ibn Kathir">[https://web.archive.org/web/20160307190536/http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1487 Among the Signs of the Might and Power of Allah are the Night and Day, and the Sun and Moon] - Tafsir Ibn Kathir</ref>}} | ||
However, he comments on verse 31:29 that ibn 'Abbas also said that the sun runs in the sky / heaven (alssama) in its rounded course (falakha) during the day, and when it sets it runs at night (bi al-layli - omitted in the translation) in its falak beneath the Earth: | However, he comments on verse 31:29 that ibn 'Abbas also said that the sun runs in the sky / heaven (alssama) in its rounded course (falakha) during the day, and when it sets it runs at night (bi al-layli - omitted in the translation) in its falak beneath the Earth: | ||
{{Quote||(It goes and prostrates beneath the Throne, then it seeks permission from its Lord, and soon it will be said: “Go back from whence you came.”) Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn ’Abbas said, “The sun is like flowing water, running in its course in the sky during the day. When it sets, it travels in its course beneath the earth until it rises in the east.” He said, “The same is true in the case of the moon.” Its chain of narration is Sahih.<ref>[http:// | {{Quote||(It goes and prostrates beneath the Throne, then it seeks permission from its Lord, and soon it will be said: “Go back from whence you came.”) Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that Ibn ’Abbas said, “The sun is like flowing water, running in its course in the sky during the day. When it sets, it travels in its course beneath the earth until it rises in the east.” He said, “The same is true in the case of the moon.” Its chain of narration is Sahih.<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20210825155559/http://m.qtafsir.com/Surah-Luqman/The-Might-and-Power-of-Allah-A--- The Might and Power of Allah Allah tells us that He] - Tafsir Ibn Kathir. See [https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=7&tSoraNo=31&tAyahNo=29&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1] for the Arabic.</ref>}} | ||
Moreover, we saw above in the hadith given by al-Tabari that belief in the sun circling the sky above a flat Earth and setting and rising in springs was believed to be compatible with the “falakin” phrase in the Qur’an: | Moreover, we saw above in the hadith given by al-Tabari that belief in the sun circling the sky above a flat Earth and setting and rising in springs was believed to be compatible with the “falakin” phrase in the Qur’an: | ||
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====Multiple setting and rising places==== | ====Multiple setting and rising places==== | ||
The Earth's tilt causes the apparent places of the sun's setting and rising to shift back and forth along the horizon during the course of a year. A flat Earth believer might imagine there were many places where the sun sets and rises, or places that move (see above for the set of springs or places the commentators mention), but 18:86 and 18:90 only refer to one of each. Al magharib and al mashariq in 37:5, 55:17 and 70:40 are usually translated as the easts and wests (or in 55:17, the two easts and the two wests). As noted earlier however, other translations have here the points of sunrise and sunset or explanatory notes to that effect. The commentators say that these verses are referring to the points from which the sun rises and sets from the Summer to Winter solstices. See for example Tafsir Ibn Kathir,<ref>[http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1521&Itemid=111 Allah is the Lord of the Two Easts and the Two Wests] - Tafsir Ibn Kathir</ref> Tafsir al-Jalalayn,<ref>[http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=55&tAyahNo=17&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Sura 55 Verse 17] - Tafsir al-Jalalayn</ref> Tafsir al-Tabari,<ref>[ | The Earth's tilt causes the apparent places of the sun's setting and rising to shift back and forth along the horizon during the course of a year. A flat Earth believer might imagine there were many places where the sun sets and rises, or places that move (see above for the set of springs or places the commentators mention), but 18:86 and 18:90 only refer to one of each. Al magharib and al mashariq in 37:5, 55:17 and 70:40 are usually translated as the easts and wests (or in 55:17, the two easts and the two wests). As noted earlier however, other translations have here the points of sunrise and sunset or explanatory notes to that effect. The commentators say that these verses are referring to the points from which the sun rises and sets from the Summer to Winter solstices. See for example Tafsir Ibn Kathir,<ref>[https://web.archive.org/web/20160620134449/http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1521&Itemid=111 Allah is the Lord of the Two Easts and the Two Wests] - Tafsir Ibn Kathir</ref> Tafsir al-Jalalayn,<ref>[http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=55&tAyahNo=17&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Sura 55 Verse 17] - Tafsir al-Jalalayn</ref> Tafsir al-Tabari,<ref>[https://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=1&tSoraNo=55&tAyahNo=17&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=1 Sura 55 Aya 17] - Tafsir al-Tabari</ref> and Tafsir Ibn ‘Abbas.<ref>[http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=37&tAyahNo=5&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2 Sura 37 Verse 5] - Tanwîr al-Miqbâs min Tafsîr Ibn ‘Abbâs</ref> It could mean points on the horizon (from a flat earth perspective) or actual setting and rising places (though they are not mutually exclusive). | ||
We saw above the hadith referring to “the rising place”, “the setting place”, “its rising place” and “your setting place” in the singular. Both there and in the Qur’an it would mean the place where the sun set and the place where it rose on those particular days whether one or many were imagined to exist. | We saw above the hadith referring to “the rising place”, “the setting place”, “its rising place” and “your setting place” in the singular. Both there and in the Qur’an it would mean the place where the sun set and the place where it rose on those particular days whether one or many were imagined to exist. | ||
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==Notes on translations, transliterations, and sources== | ==Notes on translations, transliterations, and sources== | ||
{{refbegin}} | {{refbegin}} | ||
Unless otherwise stated, the original 1934 translation of Abdullah Yusuf Ali<ref>Ali, Abdullah Yusuf, | Unless otherwise stated, the original 1934 translation of Abdullah Yusuf Ali<ref>Ali, Abdullah Yusuf, The Holy Qur’an: Translation and Commentary, Lahore: 1934</ref> is used for quotations from the Qur’an due to its widespread distribution. Word for word translations are those used on [http://corpus.Quran.com/ The Quranic Arabic Corpus]. However, these are used only to explain in English the arguments in this article, which are founded on analysis of the Arabic words of the Qur’an. | ||
For hadith (oral traditions of the words and deeds of Muhammad, collected and written down mainly in the 8<sup>th</sup> and 9<sup>th</sup> centuries CE), the translation of Muhammad Muhsin Khan<ref>M. Muhsin Khan - [{{Compendium-of-muslim-texts-base-url}}/hadith/bukhari/ Translation of Sahih Bukhari] - CRCC, University of Southern Carolina</ref> is used for Sahih Bukhari. That of Abdul Hamid Siddiqui<ref>Abdul Hamid Siddiqui - [{{Compendium-of-muslim-texts-base-url}}/hadith/muslim/ Translation of Sahih Muslim] - CRCC, University of Southern Carolina</ref> is used for Sahih Muslim. Their numbering systems are used (vol., book, no. and book, no., respectively) | For hadith (oral traditions of the words and deeds of Muhammad, collected and written down mainly in the 8<sup>th</sup> and 9<sup>th</sup> centuries CE), the translation of Muhammad Muhsin Khan<ref>M. Muhsin Khan - [{{Compendium-of-muslim-texts-base-url}}/hadith/bukhari/ Translation of Sahih Bukhari] - CRCC, University of Southern Carolina</ref> is used for Sahih Bukhari. That of Abdul Hamid Siddiqui<ref>Abdul Hamid Siddiqui - [{{Compendium-of-muslim-texts-base-url}}/hadith/muslim/ Translation of Sahih Muslim] - CRCC, University of Southern Carolina</ref> is used for Sahih Muslim. Their numbering systems are used (vol., book, no. and book, no., respectively). | ||
All transliterations of the Arabic Qur’an into Latin characters are from the free, widely used Muslimnet transliteration used by many popular websites such as [http://www.muslimaccess.com MuslimAccess], which has a transliteration table,<ref>[http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/transliterations/index.htm Transliteration of the Qur'an] - MuslimAccess.Com</ref><ref>[http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/transliterations/table.html Transliteration Table] - MuslimAccess.Com</ref> and [http://www.islamicity.com IslamiCity]. We have not found a source for transliterations of the commentaries and hadith, so we have done those ourself from the Arabic using the same transliteration rules. Hadith and tafsir (commentaries) are not used here as authoritative sources on the meaning of the Qur’an, but rather for near contemporary examples of language usage and beliefs. | All transliterations of the Arabic Qur’an into Latin characters are from the free, widely used Muslimnet transliteration used by many popular websites such as [http://www.muslimaccess.com MuslimAccess], which has a transliteration table,<ref>[http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/transliterations/index.htm Transliteration of the Qur'an] - MuslimAccess.Com</ref><ref>[http://www.muslimaccess.com/quraan/transliterations/table.html Transliteration Table] - MuslimAccess.Com</ref> and [http://www.islamicity.com IslamiCity]. We have not found a source for transliterations of the commentaries and hadith, so we have done those ourself from the Arabic using the same transliteration rules. Hadith and tafsir (commentaries) are not used here as authoritative sources on the meaning of the Qur’an, but rather for near contemporary examples of language usage and beliefs. | ||
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http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/ | http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/ | ||
''Search the hadith in English and Arabic, see them side by side | ''Search the hadith in English and Arabic, see them side by side | ||